Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

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dr_frost_dk   1 W

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by dr_frost_dk » Oct 13 2012 12:21pm

Looking good, nice and clear, hope im not asking to much but can you make one more where the winds start from the "base" of the tooth's, like the diagram i redraw cause that how i will wind it, i think it will be easiest to manage, of course this will be my first outrunner rewound and you done it already so i can't say what is easiest to manage.

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by tdejong » Oct 13 2012 12:48pm

I rewind my motor from the middle of the phase, so i measure the total length first, take it double and start with teeth 2 first, then 1 and then the opposite site in the same way.

I understand if you rewind with only one copper wire, you might want to start from the phase end like you describe. I have to rethinnk the diagram and will post a new one later, the diagram is use is indeed wind from the middle of the phase, one side first and then the opposite

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by VANDY » Oct 17 2012 10:18am

tdejong: What size of outboard have you converted? What specs are you trying to match?

I have this motor; currently at stock wind with upgraded hardened steel shaft. I am doing a conversion as well and I am curious at what to expect and if I will need to alter my winding...Why did you decide to go LRK?
E-Skate(Electric Skateboard) 1kW+ - 50V 20Ah LiPo

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by dr_frost_dk » Oct 17 2012 3:30pm

Getting close to wind day :), just finished a schematic, need you guys to double check it so i don't make any errors when i start.
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12N-14P DLRK-WYE.png
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by tdejong » Oct 17 2012 3:51pm

dr_frost_dk wrote:Getting close to wind day :), just finished a schematic, need you guys to double check it so i don't make any errors when i start.
a really nice drawing, much better then my pencil drawings. I compared your drawing with these and i also checked it using the righthand-grip rule and i think it is correct

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by tdejong » Oct 17 2012 4:10pm

VANDY wrote:tdejong: What size of outboard have you converted? What specs are you trying to match?

I have this motor; currently at stock wind with upgraded hardened steel shaft. I am doing a conversion as well and I am curious at what to expect and if I will need to alter my winding...Why did you decide to go LRK?
I understand that when using DRLK, the motor runs smoother, starts better and less cogging. But i dont know the science behind it yet.

I intend to use the motor as direct drive running on 8s or 12s @ 80A (2000W / 3000W). Efficiency is key and therefore i run a large
diameter propellor as slow as i can get, which is 1300RPM at 8s/80A.

The C80100 motor configuration after the rewind:
- 60KV (measured 62KV)
- Rphase = 57mOhm
- peak effiency: 87% (only taking copper loss into account)
- efficiency at 80A: 80%
- 10 turns DRLK WYE (star)
- 4x1.0mm (18AWG), which means 4 x 0.917mm excl. isolation = 2.65mm2

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by dr_frost_dk » Oct 18 2012 10:02am

tdejong wrote:
dr_frost_dk wrote:Getting close to wind day :), just finished a schematic, need you guys to double check it so i don't make any errors when i start.
a really nice drawing, much better then my pencil drawings. I compared your drawing with these and i also checked it using the righthand-grip rule and i think it is correct
Thanks, yours is also very good, i went through the winding scheme 5 times now and it seems right and you also agree so now i just have to find the time to do the wind....

For now i have prepared the stator, filed down some of the leftover glue that held the original windings, and have layered a thin layer of 2-component glue on the spots where the green insulation chipped when removing windings, lastly i have applied 2x8mm kapton tape just to give the wind's that extra protection from shorting.
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by mauimart » Oct 21 2012 8:53pm

Thud,
Any test results on the fans? I have collected some temperature data for a few baseline runs http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 30&t=44287 on my bike and am ready to try some cooling remedies on my C80100. The only problem is I have the old style end cap (4 teardrop style openings) on the motor and it looks like your fans are optimized for the new style end cap with the 12 oval type openings. My goal is to be able to run this motor at 2kw continuous without exceeding too much above 100 degrees C. I'm wondering if that would be possible without attaching my leaf blower to the bike to cool the motor. :)
Martin

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Thud » Oct 21 2012 10:06pm

M,
I ran test fans on my motors out in California. (it was 107F-deg that afternoon) the fans work as well as they could have, but I did notice they were deforming under the extreme conditions.

I was going to look for a more sturdy casting compound for additional testing. If you want to test one PM me a shipping address & i'll send you a beta for further evaluation.

These will bolt onto the V1 or V2 magnet cans.
get some......

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by dr_frost_dk » Oct 22 2012 5:52am

my advice on cooling is to sand (fine sandpaper) the paint away between motor and alu plate you mount the motor on, i have done this on the motor in my ciao and cooling got at least 4x better just by doing that, before i did it the motor would often get so hot that you can smell the copper on the verge of "melting"/shorting, after i sanded it down i just can't get it nowhere near critical no matter how much abuse i do!.

On the 80100 you have to sand down the front plate and also inside the front plate, the plate where the skirt-bearing is mounted also needs to be sanded, doing this you will be pulling heat from the stator out into the alu plate you use for mounting, also remember to use GOOD thermal paste between all the sections.
Now for the 80100 to get the best cooling i recommend making a "wire guide" on you mounting plate so you can attach you motor without the normal front plate, this will make cooling A LOT more efficient, on my C6374-200kv the front plate is apart of the motor, on the 80100 the front plate is separate, - point to above post by turd where you can see the front plate with the white plastic part attached -

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by mauimart » Oct 23 2012 11:38am

dr_frost_dk,
I was actually thinking of adding a small heat sink to the aluminium bracket the motor is mounted on. I noticed that it was around 40 degrees C when the motor was at 100 C. Sanding and thermal paste, as you suggest, should allow even more heat transfer to the plate and the heat sink should be able to "wick" away even more as it will have some fins that are exposed to the airstream. I will install the fan first and do some more testing to see what the difference is. Following that I will try the heat sinking approach. Thanks for the advice.


dr_frost_dk wrote:my advice on cooling is to sand (fine sandpaper) the paint away between motor and alu plate you mount the motor on, i have done this on the motor in my ciao and cooling got at least 4x better just by doing that, before i did it the motor would often get so hot that you can smell the copper on the verge of "melting"/shorting, after i sanded it down i just can't get it nowhere near critical no matter how much abuse i do!.

On the 80100 you have to sand down the front plate and also inside the front plate, the plate where the skirt-bearing is mounted also needs to be sanded, doing this you will be pulling heat from the stator out into the alu plate you use for mounting, also remember to use GOOD thermal paste between all the sections.
Now for the 80100 to get the best cooling i recommend making a "wire guide" on you mounting plate so you can attach you motor without the normal front plate, this will make cooling A LOT more efficient, on my C6374-200kv the front plate is apart of the motor, on the 80100 the front plate is separate, - point to above post by turd where you can see the front plate with the white plastic part attached -

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by dr_frost_dk » Oct 23 2012 4:19pm

Your welcome :), all i can say is that in the 2.5Years i been driving with a MUCH LESS powerful motor then the 80100, cooling has ALWAYS been a issue, only burnt one motor and that was in the beginning of the running time (less then 6 mounts after driving start), but as i said, before i did the sanding down and got better heat transfer from stator to mounting plate, my motor would often smell of that burnt electronics smell, but after the better heat transfer this has not accrued since and motor is never so warm that you can't touch it, and best of all the power from the motor is more constant, before after a long drive you could clearly feel the power loss because off the MASSIVE heat in the motor.


EDIT: just sanded down the base of the stator, if you do this you will feel the difference in temperature when touching the clean area vs the side were the skirt-bearing sits, this will be a good indicator to how much better cooling will be by just doing this, heat will be transferred away from the stator many times better then when you rely on the paint to do it....
Oh and yes those winds are coming off and being redone, no shorts but they look awefull

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by bearing » Nov 08 2012 11:29am

http://i.caendle.de/dev/test2/

According to this calculator, the winding factor is higher if you wind it LRK instead of dLRK. Do you think that is correct?
If it is correct, do you think the higher winding factor could cancel out the higher resistance from long end turns?

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Miles » Nov 08 2012 11:59am

Number of winding layers...............single layer (LRK).......double layer(dLRK)
Fundamental winding factor...............higher....................lower
End-windings...................................longer..................shorter
Slot fill factor...................................higher..................lower
Tolerance to faults............................better....................worse
Back-emf...................................more trapezoidal.......more sinusoidal
Harmonic content of MMF..............more harmonics........fewer harmonics
Magnet losses..................................higher....................lower
Manufacturing..................................easier...............more difficult

From: http://www.emetor.com/blog/post/tutoria ... -windings/

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thud rewinding challenge

Post by h0tr0d » Dec 14 2012 11:19am

Thud,

With your experience, you seem the man to make this challenge a reality.

6 turn 9 awg (2.906mm diameter) C80100, no green insulation, just some Kapton tape on stator. ~40% less copper losses and heat!
thud challenge.jpg
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Seems to fit... Bigger diameter in drawing to simulate wire insulation
thud copper.jpg
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Thud » Dec 14 2012 1:05pm

a couple problems in your proposal:
#1 Kapton tape is a complete fail for insulating the laminations from cutting the polymide insulation on the magnet wire.

Even the green epoxy is weak & I have to add nomex paper to pull 14G wire & make tight turns on the skinny stator teeth

Which brings us to problem #2- Pulling the tight radius on the heavy wire, to make the turns. I have some 12g wire & that is the thickest I can physically make the end turns with....I can still make a 9 turn dlrk with with that though.

The issue more than anything is finding the balance for operation....

So far, I haven't built a better motor & controller set up than the 6-turn, 2-in hand, 14G, dlrk/wye terminated motor...run the thing with a 12 or 18-FET xie-chang with a 6-Kw limit on 20 LiPo cells & you will not find a better RC power combination [with external hall sensors].

The motor finds balance right there, more rpm's (voltage) brings iron losses to un-acceptable levels, More current & the copper insulation is going to fry. Its at best, a 5-Kw motor..Just like the Astro or any other motor in this size range...there is no magic....only variables. :P
Last edited by Thud on Dec 14 2012 3:34pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Miles » Dec 14 2012 1:13pm

Thud wrote:there is no magic....only variables. :P
:mrgreen:

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by johnrobholmes » Dec 14 2012 1:24pm

You have a good source for nomex paper, thud?

I've been looking at getting a powdercoating setup so we can insulate stators in house. Seems like paper would be a lot easier for protos.

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Miles » Dec 14 2012 1:30pm


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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Thud » Dec 14 2012 2:09pm

I just bought some from Bigmoose in thinner gage's

all the other stuff I have I got out of the trash box at an industrial re-wind house a mile up the road from the shop....they throw more usable scrap away a week than i can use in a lifetime :lol:

I stopped by the one time & bought a 10# spool of 15g wire....& raided the nomex trash can the once.

I still have a bunch of heavy duty fish paper odds & ends for use after re-winding a dozen motors.
get some......

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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Thud » Dec 14 2012 4:46pm

Hotrod,
looking more closely at the stator tool in Drive calculator, it confirms my suspicion that 9-awg is deep into diminished returns regarding copper fill. Once end turns & travel path to the adjacent teeth are factored-in, you can only get 3 turns & way less copper in the slots than my 6-turn 2-wire 14g.

for your pleasure.
80-100 9 AWG.pdf
(786.88 KiB) Downloaded 191 times
80-100 14 AWG.pdf
(780.8 KiB) Downloaded 164 times
Drive calculator assumes I can wind like a robot...it says I can wind 8 turns of 2 x 14g....but my best is 6 turns.

I have gotten 7 turns on 2 out of 3 phases. :mrgreen:

2 out of 3 aint bad...but close doesn't cut it on BLDC motors
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by h0tr0d » Dec 15 2012 5:24pm

I just pulled a 14g x 3 parallel 5 turn, it was though! My first time... now I can see why drivecalc says 9g 3turn...

Whats the max amps you can pull from your 14g x 2 parallel 6 turn?
Thanks
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Thud » Dec 15 2012 9:32pm

max amp draw is infinite... :lol: It just won't last long like that.
I see 100 amps under max acceleration on 18 cells (programmed limits on a xie-chang 12-FET, measured with a calibrated CA.) but at full speed the draw is typically less than 35 amps with a 40-MPH gearing.

The same set up pulls 200 amps thru a castle HV-160 on 12 cells as read on the castle logging software..
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by h0tr0d » Dec 15 2012 11:22pm

Thud wrote:max amp draw is infinit...... :lol: just won't last long like that.
Of course, it's all question of energy, not amps... :wink:
I see 100 amps under max acceleration on 18cells (programed limits on a xiechang 12fet measured with a calibrated CA.) but at full speed the draw is typicly less than 35 amps with a 40mph gearing.

The same set up pulls 200 amps thru a castle hv160 on 12cells as read on the castle logging software..
Can you an idea of how many seconds are we talking about? 100A for 5~30s?

I read something about flux rings, can you supply a photo or some explanation? something to do with lower starting amps and lower kv...

A bit off topic, what awg wire(s) have you used on a c12070? Ever rewound a rotomax150cc?

Regards
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Re: Re-wind of a turnigy 80/100 (Now-tutorial w/Video)

Post by Thud » Dec 16 2012 12:20am

h0tr0d wrote:
Thud wrote:max amp draw is infinit...... :lol: just won't last long like that.
Of course, it's all question of energy, not amps... :wink:
I see 100 amps under max acceleration on 18 cells (programmed limits on a xie-chang 12-FET, measured with a calibrated CA.) but at full speed the draw is typicly less than 35 amps with a 40-MPH gearing.

The same set up pulls 200 amps thru a castle HV-160 on 12 cells as read on the castle logging software..
Can you give me an idea of how many seconds are we talking about? 100A for 5~30s? less than 5 seconds in most cases

I read something about flux rings, can you supply a photo or some explanation? something to do with lower starting amps and lower Kv...
The actual steel can the magnets reside in is the flux ring. It completes the magnetic circuit in the rotor. There are examples & data that show there is minor improvement available with a slightly thicker can. (not worth making a new one IMHO)

A bit off topic, what awg wire(s) have you used on a CA120-70? Ever rewound a rotomax-150cc?
my current CA120 is wound with 15-awg, I am pretty sure its a 3 wire wind but I forget how many turns. (I think 5 turns)
no experience with the newer ca120's or the rotomax motors.


Regards
get some......

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