Jay64
100 kW
So what controllers have you guys been using for the Turnigy 80-100s?
Which controller for Turnigy 80-100?
- Thread starter Jay64
- Start date
Thud
1 MW
Jay64,
Right now the Castle creations HVIce 160 is handling the job. (th data logs are in the red zones but its working)
I have a set up with halls & an 18fet infineon controller, I has run at 72volts but the performance has been anemic thus far.(by my standards)
I have modded the shunts for more amperage but the controller is starting to heat up.....
I have low confidence in the set up....thinking a different Fet may be in order as I learn more about them.
Right now the Castle creations HVIce 160 is handling the job. (th data logs are in the red zones but its working)
I have a set up with halls & an 18fet infineon controller, I has run at 72volts but the performance has been anemic thus far.(by my standards)
I have modded the shunts for more amperage but the controller is starting to heat up.....
I have low confidence in the set up....thinking a different Fet may be in order as I learn more about them.olaf-lampe
10 kW
I wiil use a Sevcon millipac for testing. It is rated 36V/250A but can handle a lot more.
After finding the right setup and winding config. I'll see which FETs will suit best for an infineon mod.
-Olaf
Some are using Kelly controllers, but I don't know which...
After finding the right setup and winding config. I'll see which FETs will suit best for an infineon mod.
-Olaf
Some are using Kelly controllers, but I don't know which...
Fitted hall sensors and am using a beefed up 12 FET infineon.
Has been working great for a few months now at 4.5kw
Some documentation about it in my Stinky thread around here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12768&hilit=stinky+hxt&start=75#p243726
Has been working great for a few months now at 4.5kw
Some documentation about it in my Stinky thread around here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12768&hilit=stinky+hxt&start=75#p243726
E-racer
1 kW
I'm running a Kelly KBL its had rock solid reliability so far. Adding Hall sensors to the 80-100 is pretty simple. I had bad luck with Turnigy sensorless controllers.
tostino
10 kW
Jay, a 18 or 24 fet infinion should drive that motor nicely. Fill that controller with 4110's, use kapton tape to mate the fets to heatsink with arctic silver, and beef up the shunt.
After that, all ya need to do is program it.
Thud, do you have a thread on how you placed the hall sensors in the motor?
After that, all ya need to do is program it
.Thud, do you have a thread on how you placed the hall sensors in the motor?
Thud
1 MW
So far, all my hall's have been externaly mounted. This is the "simple" option
(I got it all from Burties thread)
I have a kit in the works just for the 80mm turnigys.
3 halls with pigtails potted into a univerasl mount, with a few degrees of adjustability to zero in the timing.
e-racer, what kind of voltage are you running on the kelly controllers?
here is their info:
http://www.kellycontroller.com/kbl7210124-72v100abldc-controllerwith-regen-p-56.html
even the "upgraded" 100,000 Elect rpm would be 7143 rpms on these.
(I got it all from Burties thread)
I have a kit in the works just for the 80mm turnigys.
3 halls with pigtails potted into a univerasl mount, with a few degrees of adjustability to zero in the timing.
e-racer, what kind of voltage are you running on the kelly controllers?
here is their info:
http://www.kellycontroller.com/kbl7210124-72v100abldc-controllerwith-regen-p-56.html
even the "upgraded" 100,000 Elect rpm would be 7143 rpms on these.
tostino
10 kW
Hmm, Thud, what amp limit and voltage do you have on your infinion, and what fets are in it if you don't mind me asking?
Thud
1 MW
Tostino.
They are loaded with irfb4110's.
short answer is I don't know for certain.....but a LOT.
currently its programmed for 75amp on the batt & 125 on the phase. 100% in the throttle settings, 3 for block time.
My last few runs in the 18fet units have been alright.....not race ready by my standards. & when I push the limits with programing I run into into throttle cut-off over amp protection. I have been running 72v & modding the shunts to push the amprages up. (controllers are running too warm for my comfort ATM)
Not gaining confidence at all as we get further into it. There are some photo's in the Ohio race thread.
I have a CA but it came after I blew a controller to smitherines.(repaired now & I have a twin to go with it) With the modded controller shunts, the calibration is all out of whack on the CA.....I need to spend more time on it to get you a better answer & re-document the mods & settings.
This will happen in my spare time LOL.
They are loaded with irfb4110's.
short answer is I don't know for certain.....but a LOT.
currently its programmed for 75amp on the batt & 125 on the phase. 100% in the throttle settings, 3 for block time.
My last few runs in the 18fet units have been alright.....not race ready by my standards. & when I push the limits with programing I run into into throttle cut-off over amp protection. I have been running 72v & modding the shunts to push the amprages up. (controllers are running too warm for my comfort ATM)
Not gaining confidence at all as we get further into it. There are some photo's in the Ohio race thread.
I have a CA but it came after I blew a controller to smitherines.(repaired now & I have a twin to go with it) With the modded controller shunts, the calibration is all out of whack on the CA.....I need to spend more time on it to get you a better answer & re-document the mods & settings.
This will happen in my spare time LOL.
tostino
10 kW
Hmm... I am honestly pushing my 12 fet harder than that as far as amps go (the programmed values that is).
Is the controller mounted in open air? Is there enough airflow going over it? My controller (with 165 phase amp limit) never gets too hot to touch, it really never gets too much above ambient. Granted, I am not hitting that 165a limit for too long... Hmm, well do your best to get an accurate reading of your shunt, and see what your actual amp draw is. If you are pushing 100+ battery amps, and performance is anemic, then you have some pretty high standards, or something is wrong.
What did you use to get better performance than with the infinion?
Is the controller mounted in open air? Is there enough airflow going over it? My controller (with 165 phase amp limit) never gets too hot to touch, it really never gets too much above ambient. Granted, I am not hitting that 165a limit for too long... Hmm, well do your best to get an accurate reading of your shunt, and see what your actual amp draw is. If you are pushing 100+ battery amps, and performance is anemic, then you have some pretty high standards, or something is wrong.
What did you use to get better performance than with the infinion?
Thud
1 MW
Tostino,
For an every day bike ride around the neighbor hood, & light comuting it would be absolutly acceptable
I am currently set up with a direct drive on a 80-100/130 with 13-1 reduction. (on 24" wheels)
I have my shunts almost soldered completly closed (i estimate 3 maybe 4 times the programed current is being delivered)
What are you running for a motor?
Right now The Ice 160 makes my race bike pull MUCH harder than the infineons. But I have to gear a little softer to make Certain the amp draw drops into an acceptable before things go POP!. (the log shows I am into the danger zones on every ride) The infineons run better at higher voltages But I am still faster on 50v with the Castle controllers.
My next mod will be irfb3006 fet's that can be pushed to higher amp levels, but are voltage limited like the rc controllers.
If I keep getting to hot to touch I will have to figure something else out. Like a 3 speed tranny to keep the mechanical loading in the ballpark.
I am not a casual e-biker. I am pushing the envelop to develop a race winning power combo to haul to the Death race this coming spring.....I would like to do on an electric. (but I have a Morini engine on the bench ready to install in a frame if I cant get my E-bike to perform. There is allways the hybred option of E-boost.
Minimum performance for me will be: Peak accelration to 45+ mph corner to corner total power for 25 minuets.
If you've seen the video's of Matts PK ripper, imagine that for 12 miles on a tight Kart track. On a frame with a wheel base & suspension set that allows me to scrub the tires charging the corners.
Sorry for the hijack Jay,
Hope you got some information before we ran off the tracks.
For an every day bike ride around the neighbor hood, & light comuting it would be absolutly acceptable
I am currently set up with a direct drive on a 80-100/130 with 13-1 reduction. (on 24" wheels)
I have my shunts almost soldered completly closed (i estimate 3 maybe 4 times the programed current is being delivered)
What are you running for a motor?
Right now The Ice 160 makes my race bike pull MUCH harder than the infineons. But I have to gear a little softer to make Certain the amp draw drops into an acceptable before things go POP!. (the log shows I am into the danger zones on every ride) The infineons run better at higher voltages But I am still faster on 50v with the Castle controllers.
My next mod will be irfb3006 fet's that can be pushed to higher amp levels, but are voltage limited like the rc controllers.
If I keep getting to hot to touch I will have to figure something else out. Like a 3 speed tranny to keep the mechanical loading in the ballpark.
I am not a casual e-biker. I am pushing the envelop to develop a race winning power combo to haul to the Death race this coming spring.....I would like to do on an electric. (but I have a Morini engine on the bench ready to install in a frame if I cant get my E-bike to perform. There is allways the hybred option of E-boost.
Minimum performance for me will be: Peak accelration to 45+ mph corner to corner total power for 25 minuets.
If you've seen the video's of Matts PK ripper, imagine that for 12 miles on a tight Kart track. On a frame with a wheel base & suspension set that allows me to scrub the tires charging the corners.
Sorry for the hijack Jay,
Hope you got some information before we ran off the tracks.
Jay64
100 kW
Hijack away. I want to try to get the most performance possible out of this motor. I wanna hear about all the options and the solutions to some of the problems.
Thud,
From the excessive controller heating and the fact that the protection circuitry sometimes cut in, it sounds like you have problems with your hall signals.
When I was playing with external hall sensors on these outrunners, I ran into this same problem.
The setup works fine at low power levels but ....
When you run big phase currents, the stator field becomes strong enough to interfere with the hall sensor(s) and triggers them at the wrong time.
This causes your controller all sorts of grief, and may even destroy it.
Using the 17.14 degree spacing makes the sensors more likely to pick up interference from the stator because two of the sensors end up in line with the stator teeth where its field is strongest.
Remember, we dont want the hall sensors to react to the stator fields, we only want them to react to the magnets fixed to the rotor.
A solution, I think, is to place the hall sensors between the stator teeth (ie @ 120 mech degrees).
I am getting much better results when I glue the hall sensors inside the motor, at 120 degrees, in the slots.
Burtie.
From the excessive controller heating and the fact that the protection circuitry sometimes cut in, it sounds like you have problems with your hall signals.
When I was playing with external hall sensors on these outrunners, I ran into this same problem.
The setup works fine at low power levels but ....
When you run big phase currents, the stator field becomes strong enough to interfere with the hall sensor(s) and triggers them at the wrong time.
This causes your controller all sorts of grief, and may even destroy it.
Using the 17.14 degree spacing makes the sensors more likely to pick up interference from the stator because two of the sensors end up in line with the stator teeth where its field is strongest.
Remember, we dont want the hall sensors to react to the stator fields, we only want them to react to the magnets fixed to the rotor.
A solution, I think, is to place the hall sensors between the stator teeth (ie @ 120 mech degrees).
I am getting much better results when I glue the hall sensors inside the motor, at 120 degrees, in the slots.
Burtie.
gwhy!
100 kW
Thud,
Burtie may well be correct about the external spacing as If interference/phase pickup comes into play it will upset your controller ( its something that I have been aware of but upto now I have not had any problems with this ( maybe because I am using a smaller motor/smaller phase currents ) I am just about to start playing with one of these big motors and a 12fet controller ( next week ). On paper, with the fets and also some major hardware modifications that I have planned should make the 12fet reliable upto around 7kw and should be able to push around 10-11kw for very,very short periods.
Burtie may well be correct about the external spacing as If interference/phase pickup comes into play it will upset your controller ( its something that I have been aware of but upto now I have not had any problems with this ( maybe because I am using a smaller motor/smaller phase currents ) I am just about to start playing with one of these big motors and a 12fet controller ( next week ). On paper, with the fets and also some major hardware modifications that I have planned should make the 12fet reliable upto around 7kw and should be able to push around 10-11kw for very,very short periods.
Thud
1 MW
Hmmnn,
1st I have heard of that senario, but its perfectly logical. ............now that you mention it, My smaller 63mm motor runs like a champ even on the tiny 6fet.
now to figure out if its the angry phase currents in these larger motors or just a miss match.
It may not matter where the halls are placed as long as we maintain 120 deg, But where do you fellers start? between each phase, or centerd on each phase of the DLRK pattern.
Thanks guys.
(thud makes note of potential new, valuable infirmation)
1st I have heard of that senario, but its perfectly logical. ............now that you mention it, My smaller 63mm motor runs like a champ even on the tiny 6fet.
now to figure out if its the angry phase currents in these larger motors or just a miss match.
It may not matter where the halls are placed as long as we maintain 120 deg, But where do you fellers start? between each phase, or centerd on each phase of the DLRK pattern.
Thanks guys.
(thud makes note of potential new, valuable infirmation)
Thud said:
I have always started between the different phases and it works well.
If you start at the centre of a phase,I think it should still work but use a different hall/phase wire combination.
It would be interesting to prove this empirically though.
Maybe fit two sets of sensors to a motor, 1 set between the phases and 1 set at the centre of the phases, so that a performance comparison can be made
Burtie
gwhy!
100 kW
Im gonna start with my existing 17.1 spacing, I think the real problem with working out what is really going on is trying to monitor the phase/hall signals under high current conditions (80A +) this is what has been holding me up. We/I need a way of loading the motor to draw these sort of currents but also be in a position to stick the scope on some test points.
drewjet
10 kW
Hmm, first I hear of this outside halls not working well in high power siuations. That's not good news.
gwhy!
100 kW
It depends what you mean by high power , Im still pretty confident that there will be no problems and be reliable upto 7kw, but I am basing this on my smaller motor so time will tell. The auto adjusting timing tool of burties may well be a good fix if this is indeed the problem.drewjet said:
Burtie said:Maybe fit two sets of sensors to a motor, 1 set between the phases and 1 set at the centre of the phases, so that a performance comparison can be made
Burtie
Looking at the numbers for a 14 pole 12 slot motor,
25.7 mech degree magnet spacing
30 mech degree slot spacing
the timing shift between these two sets of halls (after compensating for the different sensor wiring combination) would be 4.3 mechanical degrees, which is 30 Electrical degrees.
This coincidentaly is the timing difference required by a change between delta and wye configuration
One set would be optimised for delta, the other set for wye ??
Burtie
drewjet
10 kW
So is between the stator poles the right timing for Delta or Wye?
Ok recalculating..... 30 degrees between stators... Does that mean putting the halls between the 2 adjacent poles of phase A (then following around in 120 segments)is good for Delta, and putting between phase A and B is for Y? or vise-versa?
Ok recalculating..... 30 degrees between stators... Does that mean putting the halls between the 2 adjacent poles of phase A (then following around in 120 segments)is good for Delta, and putting between phase A and B is for Y? or vise-versa?
tostino
10 kW
I was hoping that the issue was something to do with the halls. Because I don't know anyone who had a properly set up motor/controller pushing that power who would describe it as anemic. Underpowered maybe, but not anemic. Thats why I was asking if it was an RC controller that it was working properly on before, since those are sensorless. Hopefully with the advice given already by these genius people, you will get it working properly .
.
Thud
1 MW
Tostino,
I use the launch chariteristics of a fully blue printed 1989 CR500 as a base line.
everything else is anemic in that regard
I am anxious now to reposition the halls internally & see what effect it has on the big motors. My smaller motor set up performs very much like an rc controller (better if you consider the zero speed starting power)...
I use the launch chariteristics of a fully blue printed 1989 CR500 as a base line.
everything else is anemic in that regard
I am anxious now to reposition the halls internally & see what effect it has on the big motors. My smaller motor set up performs very much like an rc controller (better if you consider the zero speed starting power)...