Updated Cap choices for high power motor controllers Updated

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WORK IN PROGRESS

I put the update for 10/16/10 in blue, so folks who read what I had yesterday won't have to re-read.


Why do are controllers have caps?

To protect the FETs, and to improve controller efficiency and performance.


How do caps protect the FETs? What do my FETs need protection from?

Your motor is a big inductor. To operate this motor, current is switched through these coils of the motor. Everytime the FETs switch from ON to OFF, the inductor trys to maintain this current level it was previously seeing (and the energy they use to do this is energy stored in building the magnetic field and the associated delay in the rate current climbs when initially switched "ON", so energy in/out is balanced). It can't maintain current by holding the same voltage, so as this field in the inductor colapses, the voltage skyrockets trying to maintain that current flow through the now greatly increased resistance of the FETs in the OFF state.

This effect is called flyback, freewheeling, or a number of other names to define this inherent voltage spike.

This flyback voltage spike occurs on absolutely every conductor that suddenly becomes an open circuit. If it's a giant coil of wire around a stator tooth, or a 2cm trace on a PCB, it has inductance, and when it switches from carrying current to not carrying current, it will have a spike. The magnitude and energy in this spike depends on the inductance of the path this current is/was flowing through.

To make an metaphor for help folks visualize this effect, think of the inductance in the system like a bungee-cord. As you the FETs switch ON at the start of a cycle, it tugs that bungee cord to a given stretch distance, and as the PWM cycles, it's moving back and forth, but the displacement of the stretch in the bungee cord dampens this effect, and keeps the tension of what you're tugging against roughly flat. Now, when the FET opens, it's like somebody just snips the connection, and the cord "fly's back" in way where that tension (current) gets very quickly converted into high velocity (voltage), and the things on both ends of this lead had better be ready to absorb this extremely rapid conversion from nice smooth tension into snapping that energy stored from stretching that bungee (energy stored in creating the magnetic field).
if anyone wants to make a better example, please do, I will replace mine with it. I am not a poet.



This spike on the motor phase side is clamped by the intrensic diode of the FET body and the energy is released as heat, and ringing in the phase wires.(if it's diode is fast enough).
(more on this later by someone who understand the hole saturation effect better please?)

The current flowing on the battery current side of things also has inductance of course (remember every conductor going from point A to point B has inductance). The same time that bungee cord is snapping back on the motor side, it's snapping back on the batter side as well. Longer battery wires mean more inductance, longer traces on the boards between the caps and the fets equals more bungee cord between these parts. If there were no caps, the FETs would be destroyed by these spikes just about instantly. FETs are very strong and robust in some ways, and very very weak in other ways. Raising the input voltage beyond the rated levels (IE, 75v, 100v, 150v etc etc) is one of the ways a FET is very vonerable to damage. (gate over-voltage events are another way to destroy even the strongest of FETs instantly)

This is why the cap is critical to protect the FETs in a controller.

The second function is voltage stability when the FET switches to "On". The same bungee effect hits them on the turn "On" event, and nobody likes having the voltage drop 10-20v at the FETs, and these things have roughly no difference in voltage drop if you use little 12awg battery wires or 0000wires, the inductive drops and swings are almost identical for identical current load and conductor path distance (resistive drop changes of course, but that's another matter).
(More on this to come, running out of time typeing this at work)


However, not all caps are good for protecting the FETs. Some are in fact very poorly suited to the appliction, and some are very well suited.
I'm going to help you choose caps to suit the needs of the controller.

WORK IN PROGRESS


(pics of caps below with discription of the functions)


This is a snubber cap. It's entire function is to clamp inductive spikes from destroying FETs or IGBTs.
It has extremely low inductance, and a shockingly low ESR of 5.5mOhm, which is just oustanding. This means, you this this cap with a 500amp fly back spike, and the voltage across it only has a 2.75v ripple. The spike on a bank of the normal electrolytics we use in controllers would be too slow to catch a fast spike, and if it did catch it, the ESR would mean a 500amp spike is going to be lifting rail voltage at least 10-20v. If you're FETs were being operated at close to the maximum voltage, that means you can kiss them good-bye.

These caps are extremely fast acting, and extremely low ESI/ESR. Absolutely fantastic for clamping flyback spikes, but useless for meaningful energy storage due to the 4uF capacity. They serve the very specific roll of clamping flyback spikes. These caps need absolute placement priority over all other caps in the controller. They need to be placed very close to the FET to keep the inductive path minimized so they can function correctly. They have those big bolt-on terminals because they are normally bolted directly to the input legs of IGBT modules. I'm using one bolted straight each FET package power inputs in my controller design.
snubbercap.jpg

Normal retail price is something like $25 per cap. I picked up 30 of them on new ebay for something like $5 each.
snubbercap2.jpg

These are also snubber caps, these belong to BigMoose. They are a little physically larger, and are something like 4mOhm each if I remember right. (extremely good caps!)
snubbers3.jpg



These are small radial electrolytic capacitors. They are roughly the size an AA battery.
In this same size and voltage, they can make a cap with >1,000uF capacity. However, it's useless in a controller! These caps do not have 1/5th the capacity of other caps this size because the mfg was slacking on the design or something, these things are designed specificly around being as low of ESI and ESR as possible. This means they use substantially thicker aluminum foils in the cap, and they do multiple layers starting from the same current collector lead, so they get the required foil surface area while keeping the majority of the aluminum as close the the lead as possible. Look for caps that have long skinny aspect ratios, and low low capacity for the physical size (well, specificly look for the manufactures low ESR series caps, in this case it's called the ZL series for the manufacture Rubycon.) Expect to pay about x4-10 more for a given voltage and capacity for these ESR caps, and expect them to physically be substantially more bulky.

smallcaps.jpg


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capcompare.jpg


Now, notice in this example, both of these caps have identical voltage/capacity specs. Notice the size difference between these caps? It's not because vishay doesn't know how to make a cap, it's because that big Vishay cap is a low ESR/ESI series cap. It can charge and dischage at speeds and current levels useful to the controller. That black capacitor is designed around storeing a bunch of energy, but if you work the numbers on it, even if you had 10 of them, it can't match the rate the big blue low ESR cap can charge and discharge. As low ESR caps get larger, they can only have big bolt-on terminals, because they would just melt legs right off trying to handle the ripple currents with normal solder-on legs.

mediumcaps2.jpg


mediumcaps.jpg


This is the cap stage of a Honda Insight motor controller. Notice it uses 350vdc rated caps? Pack voltage is always under 175vdc on an insight, but they knew to leave a good deal of margin to keep the caps from being damaged by inductive spikes.
You will also notice dispite each of these caps being larger than a can of soda, they are only 1750uF. That's tiny! Stock little 30amp e-bike controllers often come with more capacitance on board. This is because the roll of these caps is not to try to store meaningful energy, it's to try to filter spikes and ripple only, and let the battery store the energy.
insightcaps.jpg




So, when the FET switches on, and current starts to rise in that motor's winding, that current isn't being fed from the battery, it's first being supplied by the snubber (if you have one/them), then supplied by the electrolytics on the PCB, and still, the battery isn't doing jack yet. All that current is on it's own little pathway between the caps to the FETs. This is becaue the inductance of the battery leads (and batteries have inductance themselves as well) requires the wires to first build an electromagnetic field before it can transfer useful current levels. This delay depends on a lot of factors, like the distance the battery sits from the controller, the battery type, the switching speed of the FETs, the cap type and layout on the board etc. Some short, some long, etc. What's important to understand, is that's not just a battery that supplies current to the FETs. It's more like the caps supply current (entirely cap initially, then they share current load, then entirely supported by the battery), and it's the batteries job to keep the cap's charged up and ready to supply current to the FETs.

They are all connected on the same conductor, and we might visualize this as current always being sent from the battery down that path to the FETs, like a 1-way street. It's actually a very 2-way street, and current is being slammed back and forth between cap-fet, battery-cap, and all moving both directions down all those traces on your PCB between cap/fet/battery etc. We call it "DC", it's more like "CC", chaos-current going through the board. ;) And thank's to the hard work of the caps, the battery and other electronics are protected from this chaos, and we get to just read a nice filtered current reading on our CA and say, "hey, 60amps", and that's the correct average current at that time, and all we need to know as an end user, but it gives no representation of what current is doing inside the controller.

(once again, I'm out of time to finish this at work, and tomorrow i'm going to be twice as slammed at work. Will try to write more when possible)
 
^^ Thats not an "upgrade" so much as an 'addition' of more caps to the original ones, a must do
to any rc esc being run in e-bike application i think.

Alot of components their young Luke, going to need a trailer to carry this new controller of yours opr
will it actually fit in the triangle of the bike...oh crap...where will you put theLiPO? BAckpack? LoL

best of luck with the rest of the design and construction buddy..

KiM
 
That's a nice collection of caps you have there!

Stick them all together and drop a wrench across the contacts :twisted:

Of course we know that ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) is a critical parameter for the caps. During switching, the current passing through the caps can be extreme, which (squared)xESR= HEAT. Too much heat causes many types to simply explode. I have several examples of these.

Multiple smaller caps can dissipate heat better and will have a lower ESR for the leadwires compared to a single large cap in most cases. If you stick enough caps in parallel, they won't overheat.

Cost is another factor. Those big MLCCs are NOT cheap, but probably the best suited to this kind of application. A combination of electrolytics and MLCCs may be the most cost effective soluiton in some cases. Most motor controllers use cheaper aluminum electrolytics.
 
Thanks LFP, for taking the time to explain to those like me who have little clue as to what these components are supposed to do !
.. and for using terms and examples that we can relate to and understand. :idea: 8) :wink:
.. we owe you ! :wink:
 
fechter said:
Of course we know that ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) is a critical parameter for the caps. During switching, the current passing through the caps can be extreme, which (squared)xESR= HEAT. Too much heat causes many types to simply explode. I have several examples of these.


It's about the cap's function in the circuit that makes ESR and ESI important.

Many of the high capacity electrolytics have roughly zero ability to clamp spikes, because the ESI makes them too slow to be useful. They can offer a bit of ripple smoothing at the commutation freq, but little more.
 
LFP;
Ever since I began lurking here, I have been trying to get my head around the fact that short traces on PCB's present a measurable inductance problem at the freq's our controllers operate at. My background is caveman (1950's and 1960's) RF,VHF, CPW, ETC. Being old and lazy, I sit here and read instead of getting out the books and doing the math. I now accept the fact that the inductance of these short traces are causing spikes and wonder about the wisdom of building big fat traces of lead/tin solder in an effort to reduce the inductance. From my experience with Coplanar waveguides (CPW), we learned that Silver CPWs showed a 2–3 Ω/cm improvement in resistance over copper devices at 20 GHz. Lead/tin has even more resistance than copper. I wonder what the improvement in lowering the inductance would be from using silver in place of lead traces on the PCB's at only 20KHz? I have a bundle of silver wire of various sizes I will donate to Arlo, instead of a fat lady for jewelry, if it will keep the smoke in, in his Rube Goldberg spider webs. If his hair was longer, I think we would see it stand on end from the inductance he creates with his bench tests? I also wonder why the controllers need to operate at 20KHz instead of 2KHz, which I think would reduce the inductance, hence amplitude and power of the spikes? There is obviously a valid reason for the operation frequency of our controllers, I just haven't figured it out?
Has my brain been asleep for too many years?
Thanks
 
Great input Gordo, and thank you for helping Arlo. :) He is a good friend. :)


It would be great to not need a high PWM freq, it would make me happy as a clam. :)
However, if you want to control current, not just control average current, then you've got to make the PWM slices short enough in time that the current rise rate across the motor's winding doesn't reach the V*R current level, or we would be hosed! These giant RC type motors have winding resistance in the 4-10mOhm range, which means when just running on a 50v pack, current can be shooting towards >10,000amps! We can only allow it to ride so high on that slope shooting for 10,000amps before the FET switches off and lets the field colapse a bit before hitting it again with the next pwm pulse.
If your work the current rise-rates out for these motors with low resistance and low inductance, you quickly find you've got to get that time interval down pretty darn small, or you end up with an ugly situation for the poor FETs. :)
 
Updated text in first post is in blue
 
Nice thread Luke, with good info!
 
Thanks for breaking this down. Couple of questions: Do you need one of these monster caps for each Fet? If I am running a 36 fet controller, will I need 36 of these caps? And just to verify, the fet turning on/off, that doesn't relate to throttle on/off, correct? That is to make the PWM slices you were talking about, right?
 
It would be great to not need a high PWM freq, it would make me happy as a clam. :)
However, if you want to control current, not just control average current, then you've got to make the PWM slices short enough in time that the current rise rate across the motor's winding doesn't reach the V*R current level, or we would be hosed! These giant RC type motors have winding resistance in the 4-10mOhm range, which means when just running on a 50v pack, current can be shooting towards >10,000amps! We can only allow it to ride so high on that slope shooting for 10,000amps before the FET switches off and lets the field colapse a bit before hitting it again with the next pwm pulse.
If your work the current rise-rates out for these motors with low resistance and low inductance, you quickly find you've got to get that time interval down pretty darn small, or you end up with an ugly situation for the poor FETs. :)[/quote]

So is it the inductance of the motor causing the damaging spikes that kill the FETs or the inductance in the controller? I have read here in ES that the unbalanced inductance in the controller caused by differing lengths of traces or FET legs, cause the short (shoot through). As you can't reduce the inductance you are putting not only higher voltage (because you have increased/exceeded the V of the original controller) rated "C" in the circuit but using the fastest reacting "C" you can obtain. The size of the "C" is important but of secondary consideration to the rate of charge/discharge?

Thanks Luke;
Gordon
 
Jay64 said:
Thanks for breaking this down. Couple of questions: Do you need one of these monster caps for each Fet? If I am running a 36 fet controller, will I need 36 of these caps? And just to verify, the fet turning on/off, that doesn't relate to throttle on/off, correct? That is to make the PWM slices you were talking about, right?


Naw, in a perfect world that would be nice, but in real-life packaging of a device, you would shoot for maybe 2-snubbers located at 1/3rd and 2/3rd of the way across the FET power bus. That would provide excellent protection from spikes, and it would fit in the case. :)

Then for the electrolytic caps, the stuff that comes onboard these things is generally as low of performance as it comes. Terrible ratings on the datasheets (if they even have datasheets! Some caps on these things have no history of existing! lol), and then they don't come anywhere close to the terrible specs they were rated at when tested. lol
They love to do fake-Rubycon caps (all it takes is heat-shrink to call the cap any brand and model you like) to compliment the fake IRFB4110's that are so common these days in controllers.

If you want the controller to be as powerful and durable as possible, replace those "cheng cheng" caps (or whatever they decided to use or call them) with some 105degC rated low ESR premium caps, and don't forget to beef-up those traces along the path from the battery to the FETs with copper! Solder is a fairly pathetic conductor compared to copper, so just piling high with solder doesn't actually do much.

The reason your controller doesn't come factory this way is simple. A pair of $25 snubbers and 10x $10 low ESR caps (just guessing a 36fet board has around 10cap locations?) would be $150 in parts, which would be twice the entire parts budget for the controller. lol It's way cheaper and easier just to build with crap parts and under-rate it so it survives and works fine for the bulk of users. For the few of us actually looking to build better than that, we've got to do it ourselves it seems. Which is actually fine, it's not difficult to do once you know what to do, it's just learning what it needs that's the tricky part, and I made this thread to help folks with that, just as BigMoose helped me with it.
 
bigmoose said:
Nice thread Luke, with good info!


I couldn't have done it with out the help from a certain very special Moose with ~8 different high level degrees (you many do you have again? lol) and 35 years of experience working in this field of power electronics to guide me. :)
 
Gordo said:
So is it the inductance of the motor causing the damaging spikes that kill the FETs or the inductance in the controller?

Both. The FETs have to clamp the flyback with the intrinsic diodes because obviously you can have cap's on the motor side, but they get killed on the high-side FETs when a low inductance motor's rapid current rises too fast for the caps to stabilize voltage, and the fet get's dragged back down through the transitional-conduction zone again, making loads of heat as the Rds skyrockets. It's called "ringing" the FETs, and low inductance motors will cause it if the cap's aren't up to the task of stabilizing that FET voltage.


Gordo said:
I have read here in ES that the unbalanced inductance in the controller caused by differing lengths of traces or FET legs, cause the short (shoot through).

Ehh, it's more like you get some FETs switching, and then as they conduct, it pulls down the local bus voltage, pulling the other FETs paralleled to that one away from being able to conduct until later, that's the normal problem in unbalanced FET layouts (and a topic for a whole different thread on layout)
But if I understand what you're saying correct, yes it is possible to pull a high-side FET into a pass-through event if a non-isolated boot strap circuit for the gate drive power source had a big cap to keep it steady, and the high side FETs had minimal cap to stabilize them.

Gordo said:
As you can't reduce the inductance you are putting not only higher voltage (because you have increased/exceeded the V of the original controller) rated "C" in the circuit but using the fastest reacting "C" you can obtain. The size of the "C" is important but of secondary consideration to the rate of charge/discharge?

Thanks Luke;
Gordon


Yeah, if you work the numbers, the Capacity of the caps is actually almost no concern at all, especially as the carrier frequency gets higher, it entirely comes down to the charge and discharge rate, which is determined by the ESL/ESR, and the current collector legs themselves as well of course. Even the biggest of controllers only need total of a thousand or two uF for energy available on the board, the critical thing is having that energy available at the speed and rates the controller needs it to be clamping the spikes coming in and surging out the out-going current.

It seems to be that caps that are suited towards storing lots of energy (tons of surface area on ultra-thin foil layer strips) happen to be awful for the job of a capacitor on a controller. It's not that a cap storing more energy is a bad thing, and it's not like you would ever wish the caps had lower capacitance, it's just that the caps with thick short fat foils to do this job well naturally can't store a lot of energy, so they have low capacity, but it's more an enough for this job, because the batteries store our energy for us, we just need a strong-guy on the battle front there to be catching it as it flys in and throwing it back quick when it's needed. :)
 
liveforphysics said:
I couldn't have done it with out the help from a certain very special Moose with ~8 different high level degrees (you many do you have again? lol) and 35 years of experience working in this field of power electronics to guide me. :)

As you might guess, Luke is a friend of mine... :p He sometimes goes over the top... :shock: with his descriptions ...

I am just a coal miner's grandson, that has been blessed to be able to play with some electronics, some fire, and some inertial guidance systems... :twisted: and lived to tell about it 8) ... nothing special here... please carry on...

back to staining and urethaning shelves for the wifey today... when I check back in tonight, Luke will probably have created a small nuclear reactor to power his apartment, and charge his bike out of tuna cans, duct tape and Coleman lantern mantles!! :mrgreen: I tell you, he could be this generations Edison!
 
Thank you for this thread, it made my afternoon.

Reading how electronic things ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY WORK, at this level, in such clear and concise dialogue - it's a real pleasure.

Makes me think - folks must have been talking this way when carburetors and fuel injection and boost (turbo/supercharging) were being designed (and of course, still are) - and look at the growth of power vs displacement in IC engines over the decades.

Electric vehicles will go a LONG WAY with minds like those writing here working on them. :mrgreen:
 
I will give the fat pure silver wire to Arlin for building up the traces. Mo better than lead or copper. Pass the smoke along to his next escape point. I was thinking of bandsawing some conductors out of my gold bars, but with the current price I'll just give away the silver. :lol:
 
Even if it didn't cause huge runaway currents, reducing the PWM frequency would do very little to reduce the need for capacitors. The spikes happen when the FETs are turning on and turning off, so the spikes are related to the switching speed. Slowing down the switching speed has it's own set of problems.

As Luke says, the size of the capacitor isn't very important. Besides the ESL/ESR of the capacitor itself, the path inductance counts too. This is why placement is so important.

It's best to use several sizes of capacitors. Small ceramic chip capacitors can be placed very close to the FETs and the packages have very low ESL/ESR. Slightly larger caps with slightly larger ESL/ESR can be put a little further away, and so forth until you get to a couple of the largest values like Luke has. In most applications it's typical to use 3 or 4 different sizes each about a factor of 10 apart. The little caps can handle the spike for a short time until the larger caps can take over, and so forth up the line until the battery is supplying the current again.
 
Awesome thread Luke! This is the first time in awhile someone has tried to explain the inner workings of electronic components to the common tinkerer. I would love to see someone start a controller build thread that outlines each component chosen, why this particular choice over others, and what each part does in the system. You lay it out there, instead of heaping tons of information into the thread. Thanks man! 8)

I know you showed the best to get, but is there a best buy cap with regard to size and price? I am wondering what cap to strap onto my HV110, after reading your write up, I am having second thoughts about my Radio Shack caps. :roll:
 
The digikey site is OK if you already know what you want. Heres a site that has ONLY low-ESR caps, plus the catalogue 'seems' easier to navigate and compare choices. I haven't bought anything from them, just an option perhaps?...

http://www.low-esr.com/catalog.asp#RADALUM
 
spinningmagnets said:
The digikey site is OK if you already know what you want. Heres a site that has ONLY low-ESR caps, plus the catalogue 'seems' easier to navigate and compare choices. I haven't bought anything from them, just an option perhaps?...

http://www.low-esr.com/catalog.asp#RADALUM


It looks like for guys running 100v FETs, this is the best cap they offer:

http://www.niccomp.com/Catalog/nrsz.pdf

NRSZ471M100V18x35.5F

And for RC controllers:

This 63v cap:
NRE-HL152M63V18x40F

From this .pdf
http://www.niccomp.com/Catalog/nrehl.pdf
 
Luke your care package actually shipped today! I put in a sampling of low ESR capacitors (the white Sprague tubulars) and a sampling of the inverter rated caps in capacitance above and below what you have (2 uF and 20 uF to go with your 4 uF caps). I forgot to snap a pix of them before I shipped them. Perhaps when you get them, you can show folks that when you are serious about ESR the wire leads have to be shed for tabs. When you shed leads for tabs, you shed PCB's for laminated buss bars. There are some 400 amp Hall sensors, a triac for a spot welder and some "blast from the past" transistors, ... instead of peanuts I filled the voids with shelf stock capacitors for you...

... enjoy it Cap't Sparky!

Note the Sprague tubulars mentioned above are Sprague 735P. The 10 uF has an ESR of 6 mOhms and "only" costs about 14 bucks each. A lot less than the inverter rated caps if you have to buy new. As I said in a private email, I think we should shoot to have our ESR's below 10 mOhms. Datasheet for these is here: http://www.vishay.com/docs/42093/v735p.pdf
 
"...And for RC controllers, this 63v cap: NRE-HL152M63V18x40F..." Thanks LFP, I owe you a favor.

Is this cap appropriate for 6S (22V-24V), or should I find a sister cap (from the same family, same performance specs) in the column right next to it that has a voltage rating of twice what my system is running (just as Honda did in the example you posted?). By that I mean, if a cap is rated for triple the voltage of the system (instead of double), is that better, worse, or indifferent?...

This is the cap stage of a Honda Insight motor controller. Notice it uses 350vdc rated caps? Pack voltage is always under 175vdc on an insight
 
So how much ripple current do the caps in a controller really see?

The ripple current ratings for the aluminim electrolytics are not that high.
 
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