HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

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Kingfish
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HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Kingfish » Jun 05, 2011 8:44 pm

Greetings –

This seems obtuse but I am actually kinda challenged to complete the designs of my custom parts; the bugaboo is fitting the cabling through the weird little M14x10 hole of the Torque Arm. The APP connectors break apart nicely for the 3-Phase and can pass right through the nut and washer without too much trouble. However that 5-pin connector has to be snipped off or rewired or…

Once upon a time I had planned on using the DIN-5 connector however it is also too large. The idea of using a Micro USB connector popped into my pointy little head when reviewing cell phones; they use the Micro USB to charge the device. I needed to know the voltage of the charger in case I wanted to tie it into my battery pack. I think the draw is no or than 90 mA @ +5V.

Anyways – there’s two types of Micro USB connectors: A and B. Check out the drawing below…

Image

The corners of the Micro-A need to be slightly trimmed to fit, however the Micro-B slips through without modification – theoretically. USB 2.0 (April 2007) spec which supports the Micro connectors uses five 28-AWG wires; actually it is 4 wires and a shield. The current rating is substantial for such a tiny connector; easily 0.5A.

I think that this could make a suitable replacement for the White Molex or Black flat connectors. However I suspect that the mating ends will require a tie-down or better yet - ShrinkWrap to prevent separation. I’m just curious if anyone else has tried using this connector. :)

USB 2.0 Spec (zip 11.3 MB)

Plugged in, KF
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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Ypedal » Jun 05, 2011 8:49 pm

I've pondered that before, and i happen to have a bunch in the parts box...

The connection has to be pretty reliable, i hook up my digital camera multiple times per day, every day, and it always transfers data on command..

( Was even eyeballing HDMI connectors for Ballance leads !! )
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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Ricky_nz » Jun 05, 2011 9:30 pm

I would be worried that the very close contact spacing would make the system more prone to problems with the hall sensor signals is wet conditions.
The small contact spacing and DC voltages will also promote corrosion if any moisture is present.
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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Kingfish » Jun 05, 2011 11:11 pm

Ricky_nz wrote:I would be worried that the very close contact spacing would make the system more prone to problems with the hall sensor signals is wet conditions.
The small contact spacing and DC voltages will also promote corrosion if any moisture is present.
Waterproof USB Cable, Mini B 5 Female /Mini B 5 Male, 5.0m

Overkill, though I concede your point :)

My one thought is that the contacts are gold-plated per the spec and thus should not corrode, unlike the tin-plated connectors presently in use (black flat type).

ADDENDUM: USB Mini and Micro connectors
Wikipedia wrote:The micro-USB plugs have a similar width but approximately half the thickness, enabling their integration into thinner portable devices. The micro-A connector is 6.85 by 1.8 mm with a maximum overmold size of 11.7 by 8.5 mm. The micro-B connector is 6.85 by 1.8 mm with a maximum overmold size of 10.6 by 8.5 mm.[20]

The Micro-USB connector was announced by the USB-IF on January 4, 2007.[27] The Mini-A connector and the Mini-AB receptacle connector were deprecated on May 23, 2007.[28] As of February 2009, many currently available devices and cables still use Mini plugs, but the newer Micro connectors are being widely adopted and as of December 2010, the Micro connectors are the most widely used. The thinner micro connectors are intended to replace the Mini plugs in new devices including smartphones and personal digital assistants. The Micro plug design is rated for at least 10,000 connect-disconnect cycles which is significantly more than the Mini plug design.[29] The Universal Serial Bus Micro-USB Cables and Connectors Specification[29] details the mechanical characteristics of Micro-A plugs, Micro-AB receptacles, and Micro-B plugs and receptacles, along with a Standard-A receptacle to Micro-A plug adapter.
If not a Micro-B, can you think of an alternate 5-pin connector that can fit through an M14 nut? :)

Open to suggestion, KF
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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by amberwolf » Jun 06, 2011 2:23 am

Huh. I hadn't thought of this before, but it should work. The waterproofing is the only potential gotcha, but a simple wrap of duct tape and/or some vaseline or similar stuffed down into the connector would take care of that right quick. ;)

I see these types of cables at thrift stores frequently, usually on chargers but sometimes as separate USB cables. Then I just need the female connector, which I can probably get out of various dead devices I can ask for on CL or Freecycle. Pretty sure i have a couple of them already, so once my house/yard cleanup project is done, I'll probably take a look around and try this out. I'd definitely prefer this kind of thing to the existing JST connector, or any of the others.


But there is one more connector that will fit thru those nuts, with little modification: The PS/2 keyboard connector. and they come as extension cables you can simply cut in half to splice to your existing wiring...I did this on DayGlo Avenger for the Fusin's first installation, and it worked well, although I hardly ever cycled the connection. Then if you need longer wires, you can just use another extension (intact) to do so. :)
DSC04480.JPG
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You'd have to trim off the shoulders of the grip portion of the connector, most likely.
DSC04481.JPG
DSC04481.JPG (18.89 KiB) Viewed 3347 times
The only catch is it *has* to be the first connector thru the nut, and the last one out. ;)

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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Kingfish » Jun 06, 2011 2:54 am

AW that's called a Mini-DIN connector. :) I have a few pairs bought specifically to replace the JST however the casing after assembly is too large. I like your petroleum jelly trick ~ good call; that with heat shrink should keep the moisture out and the connection together :wink:

Take chances every chance you get, KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by amberwolf » Jun 06, 2011 3:28 am

Ah, well, all but a couple of types of the ones I had checked that are molded into various extension cables (and most of the keyboards) do fit, with room to spare (not much), up to the shoulders of the grip. If the shoulders are trimmed off, they fit thru fine. The ones with the most room to spare, and smooth bodies, are the older tan Belkin cables. The beige versions are slightly larger, but still fit.

Even the newer dark grey versions still fit, but they scrape the sides. ;)


But that micro-USB ought to be even better; I'm going to dig out my cables as soon as I have the time, which unfortunately won't be very soon.

The jelly trick I had heard of before, with car battery cables and such, then later with powerchair connections, and most recently here on ES for various things.

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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by olaf-lampe » Jun 06, 2011 5:17 am

Am I missing something? Why does the connector has to fit in ( or through ) the nut? You have to solder the hall wires inside the motor anyways. The only drawback I can think of, is: the nut can't get lost when the connector won't fit. :lol:
Or do you replace the nut regularly?

-Olaf

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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Kingfish » Jun 06, 2011 8:20 am

The point is that it greatly simplifies my Torque-Arm design because I can add/remove the washer, nut, etc; there is no need for a slotted-Torque-Arm design wherein the slot allows for the cable to pass through – thus weakening the design and requiring a clamp.

Any, yes – I frequently change the configuration ;) :lol:

It's all about reducing the machining complexity and cost of assembly.
Best, KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Kingfish » Jun 06, 2011 6:30 pm

Ordered these: Micro-B extension

Image

Should be here in a few days. I’ll let you know how it goes :)
Cheers, KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Kingfish » Jun 09, 2011 6:31 pm

The Jury is In!

And the verdict is – they work :D

Image

The Female adapter just barely squeaks through the Torque Arm; being the larger of the two ends I had not anticipated this small joy, although I’m quite pleased nonetheless. The Male adapter breezes through the M14 nut and the Torque Arm with room to spare. :mrgreen:

The connectivity between these two ends is very firm and secure, without wiggle or play or slack, and takes some effort to detach the mating. This is a very good candidate for replacing the traditional HE connectors. I do not think that heat-shrink would be required to keep the connectors together, however it would be wise if for nothing else but to provide for waterproofing as previously discussed. :wink:

Cheers, KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by -dg » May 15, 2013 3:52 pm

Kingfish wrote:And the verdict is – they work :D

Image

The Female adapter just barely squeaks through the Torque Arm;
What torque arm is that? Where can they be obtained? Thanks.
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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by mark5 » May 15, 2013 4:26 pm

-dg wrote:What torque arm is that? Where can they be obtained? Thanks.
Looks the same as an E-BikeKit Shorty torque arm. $10 for 2 pieces. Around 4.6 mm thick. On mine I found they fit a little looser than I wanted on my axle.

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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by cal3thousand » May 15, 2013 6:47 pm

Nice use of ubiquitous parts!
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

Planning on posting questions or buying anything on this site? Put up your country (at minimum) on your profile. This is a worldwide forum and we haven't reached clairvoyance.

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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by spinningmagnets » May 15, 2013 7:17 pm

We should encourage this as a new standard. Since the male plug is the smaller of the two (sizes vary between different manufacturers), perhaps the male plug should be the one on the hub end? Female to the controller?

Are the colors to the hub-motor hall wires following any kind of commonality? The 9C and the MAC seem to be popular. Left to right is green, red, black, blue, yellow...on a MAC I have.

Image

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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Kingfish » May 15, 2013 9:54 pm

Spin, I found the colors of the HE wires vary between motors of the same manufacturer and same model; I don't think there's much chance of a standard there. :lol:

I solved the color coding problem by not using them, and instead developed the concept of matching Identities (a color-agnostic method).
It is briefly explained here in my build thread.

BTW - I am still using those connectors on front and rear. Male is on the hub, Female on the controller. It will work for both USB 2 Micro-B and Mini-B.


Happy trails, KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Moya » Jul 16, 2013 11:38 am

Just bought myself such an extension micro-b cable and it only has 4 wires. Just wanted to let you know so you don't buy anything wrong. It looks the same as in the pictures above and the description said 5-pole.


Andy

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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Kingfish » Jul 16, 2013 12:43 pm

Moya wrote:Just bought myself such an extension micro-b cable and it only has 4 wires. Just wanted to let you know so you don't buy anything wrong. It looks the same as in the pictures above and the description said 5-pole.


Andy
Something is not right: Physical Appearance. See USB 1.x/2.0 Mini/Micro pinout.

If you only have FOUR wires then you bought the Type-A or Type-B which is the USB 1.x/2.0 standard pinout.

I purchase mine from usbfirewire.com and get the STRAIGHT USB 2.0 M-F extensions:
Mini-B
Micro-B

Good hunting, KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Moya » Jul 17, 2013 7:29 am


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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Kingfish » Jul 17, 2013 11:15 am

Moya wrote:http://www.ebay.de/itm/251224784014?ssP ... 1439.l2649

This is what I ordered.


Andy
I believe the seller was intent on providing the correct product, however show us a picture of what you have in hand. Does it look the same? :)

A USB mini/micro connector with only 4 wires is not to spec.
~KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Moya » Jul 17, 2013 12:51 pm

Just wanted to warn you. Maye ask the seller before you buy. That's all I had to say. :)
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IMG_0049.JPG
IMG_0049.JPG (249.22 KiB) Viewed 2001 times

Andy

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Re: HE Cabling: Micro B USB Connectors

Post by Kingfish » Jul 17, 2013 7:50 pm

One more time:

Image

I took a brand new USB cable still in the package, opened it up, cut the cable in half, knifed off the insulation, peeled away the shield, and there are 5 wires: Red, Yellow, Green, White, and Black.

I don't know what you bought - but you got gipped.

The Spec says 5 wires. I buy from reputable sellers... most of the time it works out.
Good hunting, KF
* My 2WD Garden Wall
* Kinaye MotorSports
* Primary ride: 2WD Disc 9C 2806-equiv / Dual Lyen 12FET / 20S7P LiPo.
* Epics: Going to California: 2011 8)
* 50-mph, 101, 10k-Club. 12,527 miles-to-date, 7037 as 2WD.

It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed.
The hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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