solder outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower KV

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crossbreak
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solder outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower KV

Post by crossbreak » Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:20 pm

solder outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower KV

This is my EMP 80-100 KV130. I wanna change the KV by factor 1.73 to get KV75.

I know that Lebowski posted some kind of "tutorial" (which is a bit confusing to me) , but I thought I could get there the more simple way because I know the winding scheme.

This is what it looks like with the 6 winding leads seperated. I wonder if I understand the winding diagram right (It should be ABCABCABCABC I guess) then I could just take every second one ond solder them together... couldn't I?
any thoghts though?



Image

I would just try if I hadn't just fried my first controller :(
Last edited by crossbreak on Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: solder 12-pole outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower

Post by Thud » Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:31 pm

your motor is wound-AabBCcaABbcC
you need to find the "starts" of each phase the way lebowski described.

Hey crossbeak, do a favor & count the strands they wound with.


I am pretty shure I ran the parameters wrong when i was figuring out copper volumes in my re-wind thread...
I think i remember 88 strands in total. so 44 "in hand" as they wind the teeth.
please confirm if you get the chance. Thanks in advance.
Last edited by Thud on Sun Feb 12, 2012 5:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.
get some......

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Re: solder 12-pole outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower

Post by mauimart » Sun Feb 12, 2012 6:33 pm

Maybe these illustrations will help. As Thud indicated, you have to figure out which wires represent 'starts' and 'ends'.
Attachments
12Naussen2.GIF
Delta (DLRK) wind
12Naussen2.GIF (7.73 KiB) Viewed 3871 times
12N14Pvoll1278cw.GIF
Wye when all ends connected
12N14Pvoll1278cw.GIF (7.94 KiB) Viewed 3871 times

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Re: solder 12-pole outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower

Post by sn0wchyld » Sun Feb 12, 2012 7:13 pm

Im thinking of doing this myself, so im defiantly interested in how you go about this...

is it as simple as figuring out which is the -ve and +ve for each winding and connecting the -ves together, using the +ves as each phase?

For example, in the pic in the op, if we go in a clockwise direction lableing each pair Y+Y- B+B- R+R- would you simply join each of the YBR negatives and use each +'ve as phase wires? (ignoring the fact that these aren't the actual positive/negatives for each winding)



looking at lebowski's method for figuring out windings for delta,

Lebowski wrote:ok, the clue is to connect everything in a triangle.

Take one winding (lets call this one 1), this is your reference. Spin motor (drill press ?) and measure AC voltage accross this
winding using normal multimeter (in the AC setting !!!!).

Take another winding (2 ?) and connect it to the first one in series. Measure the total series AC voltage. I know it sounds a bit
strange but the total series AC voltage should be equal to the AC voltage of a single winding. If you measure around 1.7 times the
voltage of a single winding then reverse the connections of winding 2 to end up with an AC voltage equal to that of a single winding.

Now connect the third winding (3) in series with 1 and 2 and measure the AC voltage again. If you measure 2 times the voltage
of a single winding, reverse the connections of winding 3. If the total AC voltage of the three series connected windings is 0 then
you've connected everything in the correct order. You can now short the start of winding 1 with the end of winding 3 (remember,
the voltage was 0 so this is no problem).

Now you got your 3 windings connected in delta.

then can we use the same method to find each + and - for each winding? ie in the above example we'd take the 1st wire of each winding and use them as phase wires, and short the 2nd wire of each winding to get wye rather than delta?

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Re: solder 12-pole outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower

Post by crossbreak » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:56 am

then can we use the same method to find each + and - for each winding?


Yes. Maybe one could also run a small current through the windings and find out the polarity of the stator field with a magnet. I didn't try both yet.

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Re: solder 12-pole outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower

Post by amberwolf » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:43 pm

Use a compass, rather than a magnet. ;)

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Re: solder 12-pole outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower

Post by crossbreak » Sat Aug 25, 2012 8:20 am

I tried Lebowski's (using a drill and my multimeter in AC-mode) method today, it was pretty easy. The motor runs well now in WYE. I used a 6-Fet sensorless 15amp max current for testing.

We should post Lebowski's method in the wiki section.
Last edited by crossbreak on Mon May 26, 2014 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: solder 12-pole outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower

Post by crossbreak » Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:53 am

Another pic that might help, just used it again to convert a Clyte HS3540 into "HS3570". Plz post cross references!
Attachments
BLDC_Delta_Star.jpg
BLDC_Delta_Star.jpg (181.41 KiB) Viewed 2956 times

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Re: solder 12-pole outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower

Post by crossbreak » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:12 pm

Now I wanna do it the other way around: Solder a Star Hubmotor (almost all Hubs are Star /WYE) to Delt to gain more speed. Did this with the Crystallite HS3540.

Connected it this way (sorry forgot to take final pic). Hope this help people who wanna do the same.

Runs 97kph no load @ 26.2" and 44.2V
Attachments
Clyte_3540_Delta.jpg
Clyte_3540_Delta.jpg (92.39 KiB) Viewed 2948 times
Clyte_3540_2.jpg
Clyte_3540_2.jpg (119.75 KiB) Viewed 2947 times


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Re: solder outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower KV

Post by bzhwindtalker » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:44 pm

Hello, that's what I did with my 9C clone but I have trouble making it run! it may be the controller but maybe the mod changes the timing of some motors?

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Re: solder outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower KV

Post by crossbreak » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:25 am

if you run with hall sensors, you have to re-position them. I only run sensorless, so I dont have that problem ;)

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Re: solder outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower KV

Post by scriewy » Wed Oct 30, 2013 6:45 pm

this is good food crossbreak ! and lebowski

if you convert Y to DELTA, in terms of efficiency is it simply going to be 1,73 faster as if i wouldv winded less turns to give me a 1,73 faster KV, and same toughness on the controller or it would be a tiny bit less efficient or much crazy less efficient (question mark, button broken)

what gauge are your spokes, did you lace yourself ^
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Re: solder outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower KV

Post by crossbreak » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:13 pm

with some motors, there might be some leaking current that induces eddy current drag when connected in Delta . member Circuit experienced great drag when wiring his Clyte 53xx in delta. In WYE it was fine. I can measure slightly greater no load current consumption with my N6364 motor (for a given RPM), too... need to test it with the Bafang BPM next and of course with the HS3540

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Re: solder outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower KV

Post by crossbreak » Mon May 26, 2014 9:29 am


this is how you can separate the Star connection of the "big block alternative motor" https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 83#p857304
[attachment=15]P1017331.JPG[/attachment]
remove heat shrink of the star connection
[attachment=14]P1017333.JPG[/attachment]
search where the wires go into the stator and seperate those three by rods, twist the star point a bit so it starts to open..be carful and dont bend the wires more then necessary..they brake easily
[attachment=13]P1017336.JPG[/attachment]
twist further, you can assist by using caliper at the top end
[attachment=12]P1017338.JPG[/attachment]
heat the star point with the soldering iron and twist further
[attachment=11]P1017340.JPG[/attachment]
done, the first lead is seperated, broceed with the last two.
[attachment=10]P1017341.JPG[/attachment]
all three seperated
[attachment=9]P1017343.JPG[/attachment]
measure at the three phase connectors if the three coil groups are really separated/open now. You can use your multimeter in diode "beep" mode for that
[attachment=8]P1017345.JPG[/attachment]
check which star end belong to which phase
[attachment=7]P1017346.JPG[/attachment]
mark them with colored heat shrink or tape
[attachment=6]P1017348.JPG[/attachment]
kink a cable to a star end using copper wire, solder and remove any wire spikes that could puncture insulation
[attachment=5]P1017350.JPG[/attachment]
insulate, repeat it with the other two star ends
[attachment=4]P1017353.JPG[/attachment]
fasten the cables using cable ties, use at least two or 3
[attachment=3]P1017355.JPG[/attachment]
enlargen the cable hole with a file, clean the cover from remaining alloy dust, protect the cables at the hole using duct tape or whatever you want
[attachment=2]P1017356.JPG[/attachment]
shorten your star end cables to equal length
[attachment=1]P1017359.JPG[/attachment]
connect it all in Delta, by plugs or solder it or however you want
[attachment=0]P1017361.JPG[/attachment]


Attachments
P1017331.JPG
P1017331.JPG (101.76 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017333.JPG
P1017333.JPG (114.31 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017336.JPG
P1017336.JPG (112.08 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017338.JPG
P1017338.JPG (119.03 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017340.JPG
P1017340.JPG (122.08 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017341.JPG
P1017341.JPG (100.77 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017343.JPG
P1017343.JPG (96.7 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017345.JPG
P1017345.JPG (115.49 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017346.JPG
P1017346.JPG (137.01 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017348.JPG
P1017348.JPG (120.69 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017350.JPG
P1017350.JPG (94.63 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017353.JPG
P1017353.JPG (119.44 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017355.JPG
P1017355.JPG (143.14 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017356.JPG
P1017356.JPG (123.58 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017359.JPG
P1017359.JPG (68.88 KiB) Viewed 2034 times
P1017361.JPG
P1017361.JPG (110.93 KiB) Viewed 2034 times

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Re: solder outrunner from DELTA to STAR to get lower KV

Post by crossbreak » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:31 am

TotallyRadical wrote: does it matter which of the 2 sets of 3 cables you short together?
it does not matter which triplet of wires you short and which you use as terminals as long as they are all "starts" or "ends". The trick is to connect the coils in a star topology

TotallyRadical wrote: in the thread there was a link to Lebowski's method of figuring out how to wire up Delta, but i can't seem to find out how to apply it
Terminating in WYE means you want more back-EMF voltage than a single coil has. You can use a voltmeter in AC mode to find the "starts" or "ends" while turning the motor with a drill at constant rpm. If you connect two coils in series and measure more voltage than a single coil has, then you connected two of the same kind - i.e. two ends, this is your star connection point (or wye). Otherwise (you measure a lower voltage), flip one coil. Then you just have to do it with the 3rd coil to the star point you just found and you are done

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