2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Electric Motors and Controllers
John in CR   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by John in CR » Jul 03 2012 1:31pm

TylerDurden wrote:Ja, that makes sense.

No difference in draw with two different hall combos is still a puzzle to me.
Yeah, I've only seen that on my 63 slot hubbie. Maybe he change the phases too, in which case we'd expect 3 correct ones for each direction, though Fechter swears there's a BMC with only a 1 in 36 valid combo, which I don't understand how it's possible.

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magudaman   10 kW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by magudaman » Jul 03 2012 1:38pm

John in CR wrote:
TylerDurden wrote:Ja, that makes sense.

No difference in draw with two different hall combos is still a puzzle to me.
Yeah, I've only seen that on my 63 slot hubbie. Maybe he change the phases too, in which case we'd expect 3 correct ones for each direction, though Fechter swears there's a BMC with only a 1 in 36 valid combo, which I don't understand how it's possible.
Yes I went through all 36, so I was changing phase wires too. I only found a total of 4 that seemed to work correctly, I believe I had 6 on the BMC too.
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torqueon   1 kW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by torqueon » Jul 08 2012 8:46pm

Is this still a work in progress, is there a verdict.

Pete

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by neptronix » Jul 09 2012 2:50am

torqueon wrote:Is this still a work in progress, is there a verdict.

Pete
Looks like i may be settled in a new place within a week, week and a half. Am anxious to get the motor running for sure.

What are you wondering by now though? We kind of have a collective idea of what the motor is capable of. Seems to be similar to the MAC/BMC hub motors, containing what looks like a little more magnet and copper ( but not significantly more ). Power handling on this motor may be equivalent to the BMC 1500W motor, but we are not sure, heat dispersion may be lower due to the case.

I will get the butt dyno, cycle analyst, temp sensors, gopro, etc. all running in a bit & get some proper data, most particularly what is the constant wattage it can handle at various voltages, but that is the gist of this motor for now.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by neptronix » Jul 19 2012 2:00am

Woot! I'm settled in a place near Salt Lake City, UT with a garage of my own.. the cargo frame that will be a test platform for this motor will be here in a few days. Sorry to drag my part of the testing on, but the holdup is over and the progress begins now :)
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

torqueon   1 kW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by torqueon » Jul 23 2012 10:50pm

In the continued search for that low kv 2000 watt motor, with a thin form factor. I just stumbled upon this doing a random search. A permenant magnet 3 phase generator, model, ME1016 sold by motenergy.com ( sorry i could not paste the site, for all to see ) This looks promising, 10 pole pairs, 8 inch O.D. perhaps lots of torque.

The price is $ 150 + shiping

This is listed as a A.C. generator, so no position sensors. My thought is install sensors, controller and you have a good motor.

Please check it, to see if its good, or if I am barking at the worng tree !!

Pete

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by neptronix » Aug 19 2012 3:03am

Action news update..

Settled in the new place, got the new frame, just dropped $130 on various bits and pieces for a 2 stage reduction. I'm going to run this motor at 72v with a ~7.5:1 ratio to a 24" wheel and see what it can do in the neighborhood of 5000rpm.

Why not take it all the way, right? I'll see what this thing is capable of for real :lol:

Then i want to do a 5:1 reduction at 48v to see if it can really do 2000w continuous. I really doubt it can at this point.
5:1 reduction is rather extreme but it can be done.. that was the whole point of checking out this motor. Because building a double reduction system is not for everyone, and looks goofy on a bike in addition.

If it can really do 2000w continuous at 48v, and you guys are still interested in it ( seems like interest dropped off pretty hard! ), i can coordinate a group buy.

Another possibility is getting our hands on the smaller 300-600w and 600-1000w MAC motors, if anyone wanted to use those as a mid drive setup or something like a brushless currie rear drive. KV seems similar and they are cheap and light. 3-6 pounds.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by neptronix » Aug 19 2012 3:04am

BTW magudaman, what reduction ratio were you using, to what size wheel? and you were running 52v, correct
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

AmpEater   10 W

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by AmpEater » Aug 26 2012 12:18pm

I'd still like to pick up several of these for electric mower applications. I could use 4+, 3 for upgrading the deck on my electric john deere and at least 1 for my autonomous solar mower bot.

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by Miles » Nov 14 2012 2:17pm

WRT running these motors at higher speeds:

Eddy current losses go up as the square of the fundamental frequency (rpm/60*n.pole pairs), unfortunately.....

They also go up as the square of the lamination thickness.

So, to double the speed and maintain the same level of eddy current losses you need to halve the lamination thickness.

The hysteresis losses will still double because they are close to proportional to the fundamental frequency and are not related to lamination thickness.

If you measure how much the no load current goes up from its value at the original speed, the difference is due to the increase in eddy current losses. The hysteresis part of the no load current value will remain pretty much constant.

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wasp   10 kW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by wasp » Nov 18 2012 5:17am

to get the kv down couldn't one rewind 1 of these motors?

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 18 2012 11:04pm

wasp wrote:to get the kv down couldn't one rewind 1 of these motors?
I'd say it verges on not being worth your time to do that, really.

These are not particularly good at shedding heat ( by design ) nor wonderful in efficiency ( 86% peak is okay though i guess.. ), and they are oversized due to their case and metal plate design. And their 7/8" shaft sucks too.

The only thing these motors have going for them is that they're cheap ;)

You might want to consider the GM trike motor on high volts if you just want a big single reduction chain drive motor.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 43&start=0

I should be getting mine pretty soon & should be able to tell whether it can take high RPM operation or not.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 21 2012 10:29pm



Spun it up on some good volts today to measure the no-load.

38v: 2688RPM / 3.15A x 38v = 119.7W loss
57v: 3878RPM / 3.6A X 57v = 205.2W loss
78v: 5037RPM / 4.0A x 78v = 312.0W loss

Not as bad as i thought. I'm wondering how much of that is controller loss and how much is motor loss. I've got a 12FET 4110 infineon here.

Since this motor is rated to produce 1500W continuous at 36v, it could very well produce 3000W at 72v.

While i was at it, i compared it to the used 'bad halls' GM BLT-650 ( with the magnets all chipped up ETC. )



38v: 1016RPM / 0.91A x 38v = 34.2W loss
57v: 1510RPM / 1.1A x 57v = 62.7W loss
78v: 2030RPM / 1.3A x 78v = 101.4W loss
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 21 2012 10:30pm

Whaddya think, miles? as bad as you thought? worse?
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Miles   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by Miles » Nov 22 2012 4:12am

Pretty much as expected, I think.

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by spinningmagnets » Nov 22 2012 1:22pm

For those without a lathe, there is a freewheel adapter for a 7/8-inch shaft from staton-inc.com for $15 + shipping. It may be possible to run a single reduction using a 20-inch wheel on the rear?

http://www.staton-inc.com/store/product ... 88-27.html
Image

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 22 2012 1:35pm

Oh, if you've got a 20" wheel, then a 5:1 reduction would be awesome.

12S ( 46v nominal ) would produce about 2576RPM loaded, 5:1 would get you down to 515.2rpm, which is about 30mph. Just ramp the volts up from there to get into >40mph territory.

A 24" or 25" wheel would need more reduction though :(

As far as things that fit onto the 7/8 shaft, robotmarketplace sells a #35 15T sprocket, and staton-inc i think has a 11T #415 ( BMX chain ) sprocket for the 7/8 shaft. But i think running the first stage of reduction would be very loud with a 1/2 pitch chain like the BMX stuff.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by spinningmagnets » Nov 22 2012 1:45pm

"Cheap no machining jackshafts" edit: shaft shown is 12mm dia case-hardened / bearing is 12mm-28mm for ID-OD...
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=27320
Image
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Nov 22 2012 4:17pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Jeremy Harris   10 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by Jeremy Harris » Nov 22 2012 2:00pm

neptronix wrote:
Spun it up on some good volts today to measure the no-load.

38v: 2688RPM / 3.15A x 38v = 119.7W loss
57v: 3878RPM / 3.6A X 57v = 205.2W loss
78v: 5037RPM / 4.0A x 78v = 312.0W loss

Not as bad as i thought. I'm wondering how much of that is controller loss and how much is motor loss. I've got a 12FET 4110 infineon here.
The controller loss at 4A and 78V will be small, around 1W in the FETs and 4W in the controller electronics, so maybe 5W total, or around 1.6%.
Please ask questions on the forum, rather than by PM, as it helps others and you'll get a better range of answers.

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 23 2012 9:51pm

I have made some progress on my test build. Finally figured out a way to get the chainline straight enough on this frame, after some experimentation.

Image

I am going for a 6.28:1 ratio on a 24" wheel, which should give me 30mph on 12S with lots of torque ( on that voltage, this motor would be rated to do ~1500w continuous ). On 20S, this should produce 40mph.

Now i have to go pick up some #35 chain, #35 sprockets, and a smaller shaft for this build.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by spinningmagnets » Nov 24 2012 10:47am

If anyone else likes this motor, but would like the option of a two-stage reduction using a quiet belt/pulley for the primary, McMaster-Carr has a 7/8-inch shaft adapter ($14 part# 6086K198) that allows a selection of pulleys to be bolted on, with a $45 22T pulley being the smallest I could see. If anyone finds something similar for a 17mm shaft, please PM me for the Ariens thread.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#quick-disconne ... gs/=kay63e
Image

http://www.mcmaster.com/#timing-belt-pulleys/=kay4gr
Image

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jmygann   100 kW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by jmygann » Feb 26 2013 11:15am

so ... what is the latest thoughts on the best 1000-2000 non hub motor ?
48 V Semi-recumbent

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by jmygann » Feb 26 2013 12:07pm

what kind of ratio would one try if 26" wheel and a nuvinci hub ?

http://www.organictransit.com/
48 V Semi-recumbent

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by neptronix » Feb 26 2013 12:18pm

jmygann wrote:so ... what is the latest thoughts on the best 1000-2000 non hub motor ?
In terms of what quality? price? efficiency? weight? power output? form factor?

jmygann wrote:what kind of ratio would one try if 26" wheel and a nuvinci hub ?
Totally depends on what speed you want. divide loaded motor speed ( you can take the unloaded motor speeds in this thread and multiply them by 0.80 to get 80% ) by the ideal wheel speed and you will get the correct ratio.

http://www.recumbents.com/wisil/e-bent/ ... ulator.asp

This can be helpful for finding that out.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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jmygann   100 kW

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Re: 2000W MAC lawnmower motor

Post by jmygann » Feb 27 2013 10:49am

25 mph max on a 26" wheel
48 V Semi-recumbent

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