Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by spinningmagnets » Oct 02 2018 8:28am

122C is 250 in Fahrenheit, thanks for the hard data.

That is the most useful part of forums, away from the company claims and advertisements.

That fits right in with the rule of thumb I have seen around here, to add a temp sensor to the motor core, and keep it below 200F / 93C. The common motors in China use common materials, then get common results.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by tolkaNo » Nov 04 2018 9:36pm

What's the difference in rpm between the 30mm 1000w and 35mm 1500w motors with the same winding?

If i compare the 5T 1500w leaf to something like the MXUS 3005, the 30mm MXUS put's out about an extra 35 rpm in the simulator

Im hoping the 5T 1000w motor will put out a bit higher rpm than the 1500w version because that should get me closer to about 11kv which would give me the ideal top speed that i want

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by sisachosudo » Nov 14 2018 5:06am

Still trying to assimilate all the info in the last 55 pages. Thanks for the detailed review Neptronix :thumb:

Do you know if all the benefits from this Leaf 1500W are applicable to the 1000W version as well? The vendor claims that the less powered version efficiency is 90.5% but I would like to know if some of you have tried the 1000W

From the last pages of this thread I assume that the new 2019 version of this motor does not change much from the originally reviewed by Nep.

Thank you.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by spinningmagnets » Nov 14 2018 7:38am

If i compare the 5T 1500w leaf to something like the MXUS 3005, the 30mm MXUS put's out about an extra 35 rpm in the simulator
The narrower stator has a shorter length of wire in each turn, which affects the kV.
Do you know if all the benefits from this Leaf 1500W are applicable to the 1000W version as well?
The major difference in the Leafbike motors is that they use thinner laminations. If two motors that are almost identical are running side-by-side, with both having the same watts at the input...the motor with the thicker laminations will have more of the input watts converted to waste-heat, and doing that results in slightly less power being converted to wheel-torque.

There has been a recent popularity of hubmotors using a thick aluminum stator support as a "sponge" for heat-spikes during acceleration. I like that, but it is heavier and more expensive. There is a place in this world for a high-efficiency hubmotor that is light and affordable. I highly recommend that anyone who buys a leafmotor should seriously consider adding ferro-fluid, and depending on the severity of the application, maybe even hubsinks.

One place where I feel a direct drive hubmotor is still relevant, is mounted in a 16/17-inch moped rim and driving a longtail cargobike. I think a 4T Leafbike (like that) with ferro-fluid would perform surprisingly well on hills.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 14 2018 10:48am

You're welcome sir. I tried to cover as much as possible in the initial pages, but people have taken this motor way further than i did, which is awesome.

The 1000W version seems to just be a stator width delete. It's peak efficiency point is at a much lower wattage and it is only a pound or two lighter; not really worth it unless you're looking to shave some pounds off say, a 20 inch wheel build which doesn't necessitate a 35mm motor because the smaller wheel bumps the continuous power up A LOT..

I have no experience with the 1000w motor so this is just speculation based on what i've seen.

IMHO the only real difference between the one i bought and what's offered today is thicker phase wires. I ran 12 gauge 2 inches out of the axle immediately upon seeing the tiny wires, so my initial results are probably as good as everyone else's.

I've been looking around for years for something better and not found it yet.

re spinningmagnets; there is a guy on one of my youtube vids about the leaf who has ferrofluid and heatsinks and successfully pushing 10kW peak which is just totally nutso..
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: ? on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by tolkaNo » Nov 15 2018 10:47pm

1000w should be good upto 2000w though? Since people pump 3000w or more through the 1500w

Plan is to put the 5t 1000w into a 24" wheel with 16s battery with 3077 9fet controller and be able to do around 70kmh hot off the charger and still be able to get around 60kmh at about 20-30% battery, im trying to plan everything as optimally as possible :flame:

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 15 2018 10:54pm

I dunno why you think a 1000w motor would handle what would be about 1800w continuous.
The real continuous of the 35mm motor is around 1900w unless you vent it or throw a hubsink on that bad boy, then you're up to the 2000w continuous i got.

You're gonna have to cut your expectations a lot on that ~2lb lighter smaller motor; unless you want to throw it in a 20" wheel or throw hubsinks and ferrofluid on it, but then you're up to i dunno, 15.5lbs so you might as well buy the 1500w leaf that can handle what you're trying to do and accept the other pound or so.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: ? on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by tolkaNo » Nov 15 2018 11:10pm

Yeah i can understand that

I was planning on adding ferrofluid and hubsinks on the 1000w to get the best power to weight ratio, and having it in a 24" wheel does help a bit too, but then adding all that shit does just push it closer to the 1500w weight wise depending on how much hubsinks weigh, which im not sure how heavy they are

Still deciding what would be the most optimal
Last edited by tolkaNo on Nov 15 2018 11:13pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 15 2018 11:32pm

The 1500w has a shit ton of potential if you add hub sinks and ferrofluid.

:)
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: ? on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Nov 16 2018 12:14am

neptronix wrote:
Nov 15 2018 11:32pm
The 1500w has a shit ton of potential if you add hub sinks and ferrofluid.
:)
Or better yet, forced air cooling. :)
I run mine at 6Kw Peak, 3.5Kw cont. :bigthumb:

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 16 2018 10:53am

I'm really surprised that you can get rid of all that heat.

The 48v graph from leafmotor shows that 3.5kw is 75% efficient, so you've got a ton of heat to shed.
OK, no way you are running that power at 48v.. instead you have.. 52.. 60.. 72v?
At best you're seeing 80% efficiency. Which is still around 700w of heat.

Have you thought of upgrading to a MXUS 3kW? it's 2lbs more and would operate at a higher efficiency for your power demands. About as light as you get for the power.

ps - the truth is that the MXUS 3kw is that it's actually a 2.25kw rated motor in a 26" wheel. The 3kW measurement was done in a 20" wheel.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: ? on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Nov 16 2018 5:37pm

neptronix wrote:
Nov 16 2018 10:53am
I'm really surprised that you can get rid of all that heat.

The 48v graph from leafmotor shows that 3.5kw is 75% efficient, so you've got a ton of heat to shed.
OK, no way you are running that power at 48v.. instead you have.. 52.. 60.. 72v?
At best you're seeing 80% efficiency. Which is still around 700w of heat.

Have you thought of upgrading to a MXUS 3kW? it's 2lbs more and would operate at a higher efficiency for your power demands. About as light as you get for the power.

ps - the truth is that the MXUS 3kw is that it's actually a 2.25kw rated motor in a 26" wheel. The 3kW measurement was done in a 20" wheel.
Not so surprising when you see how I'm doing it:
DSC_2763.jpg
There is another 6 on the other side also. All together it's like a mini tornado in one side out the other...heat doesn't stand a chance. :)
I'm running 52V in a 24" wheel, and also have Ferro Fluid and Heat sinks and run it on an Adaptto Mini-E with good tuning. So all possible mods known to man have been thrown at this thing apart from water cooling. :P

Yeah, a MXUS would make some sense, and I have one on my Alpha, but my Fighter is all about low weight and agility, so gotta keep the weight down.
It spends 80% of the time cruising at 2-3KW and only needs 6KW occasionally so for the most part doesn't over heat. It will hit 140C up a big hill however, but because of the fans will cool off very quickly when stopped or slowed right down.

Cheers
Custom made 18650/21700 battery packs

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled motor @ 6KW, Adaptto Mini-E. 49AH, 52V 18650 - 2.5Kwhr
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 16 2018 7:41pm

Geez, other than putting it in a 20" wheel i think you've utilized it as best as possible :)
Not bad.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: ? on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by SlowCo » Nov 16 2018 7:50pm

Those are some really serious cooling mods :shock:
I wonder what power a QS205V3 would be able to take with that kind of cooling...:twisted:
That would take a huge battery and big controller to try and overheat!

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Nov 16 2018 9:18pm

neptronix wrote:
Nov 16 2018 7:41pm
Geez, other than putting it in a 20" wheel i think you've utilized it as best as possible :)
Not bad.
Thanks. Yeah, I did all this before the advent of FF and Hubsinks, and while it does perform better that those options, it is not worth the time and effort IMO...FF + Hubsinks is good enough for most people.
SlowCo wrote:
Nov 16 2018 7:50pm
Those are some really serious cooling mods :shock:
I wonder what power a QS205V3 would be able to take with that kind of cooling...:twisted:
That would take a huge battery and big controller to try and overheat!
Thanks!
Given that I am managing 6KW peak 3KW Cont. from this 1.5KW rated Leaf motor, that would put a QS205V3 at around 12KW Peak 6KW cont. That is exactly what I've already done with my Alpha (just sold) using a MXUS 3K, but it just has FF + Hubsinks. At 12KW it will overheat when ridden hard, but at 6KW it's normally not a problem. All that is not a problem with the Adaptto Midi-E + 30AH battery I have paired with it. The battery puts out 160A without issue, and the controller never gets hot as it's covered in heat-sinks. The motor is still the weak point and overheats when pushing things really hard with stop/go or steep long hills.

Cheers
Custom made 18650/21700 battery packs

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled motor @ 6KW, Adaptto Mini-E. 49AH, 52V 18650 - 2.5Kwhr
Cowardlyducks - Stealth Fighter Videos

BikeE recumbent commuter - 9C, 6Fet Grinfineon, internal 17AH, 52V, + on-board solar.

Ebike Garage - My YouTube Ebike ramblings.

High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by tolkaNo » Nov 16 2018 10:58pm

I dont think they posted an updated efficiency sheet thing for the 1000w, what they have on the website is from 2013 so must be the old laminations

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 16 2018 11:14pm

They've been using the same 0.35mm lams on their motors clearly because well..
Nobody has figured out it is a good idea to move to 0.27mm except MAC motor and some RC motor producers..

Oh, and that new GNG Pro drive that has like 0.2mm laminations or whatnot.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: ? on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by tolkaNo » Nov 16 2018 11:19pm

If thats directed at me i mean the sheet is from early 2013 so it's probably 0.5mm laminations or something like that

It sucks that theres still alot of room for improvement and the leaf is still probably the best hub motor you can get

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Dec 18 2018 9:23pm

If you see >90% efficiency, you're looking at the 0.35mm lam motor. :)

Just a quick update. I sent peter an email suggesting 0.27mm lams and a few other improvements he could make to the lineup.
He seemed receptive to these ideas and said even thank you, which is a first for when i've given out free ideas like that.

Clearly ES is having an impact on leafbike and some other people may have said similar things in the past.

Cross your fingers with me, dudes.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: ? on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by madin88 » Dec 19 2018 4:58am

neptronix wrote:
Dec 18 2018 9:23pm
Just a quick update. I sent peter an email suggesting 0.27mm lams and a few other improvements he could make to the lineup.
Nice to hear they are open for suggestions :thumb:
We should tell them to go outright to 0,2mm lams, and i also would check if the pole count could be increased while using the same stator.
A higher pole count would lower the phase to phase resistance at given kV so this would be helpful if someone is using larger or just normal bicylce wheels.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Dec 19 2018 10:29am

I think 0.27mm is on the edge of where the price to performance ratio starts to fall apart for DD hub motors.

MAC rep stated that it was another $20 to put 0.27mm lams in their motor for 2018, but the MAC has a much smaller stator. Just a guess would be a $30-$40 extra cost on the leafmotor for 0.27mm. I told them that their hub motor is so cheap ( relative to what we buy here in the states ) that the extra cost is most likely worth it for a motor that specializes in being the most efficient DD on the market. ( so many motor makers offer 0.35mm lam, 35mm wide motors these days )

MAC rep also told me that the 0.27mm lams are only good for a few % in efficiency/power. You'll notice that the modern MAC is still rated at 1000w. So, given that it's stator spins 5 times faster than a direct drive hub, we can expect some very small gains on a DD in a typical 26" wheel. The main benefit from 0.27mm would be for when you are running the motor at higher voltage than it's design.. IE going over 40mph, or running it in a 24" or 20" wheel. It would result in an even more insanely wide efficiency curve than the leaf already has.

Another advantage in any wheel size from 0.27mm lams is how the motor would freewheel. I've pedaled my 35mm wide motor up to 18mph, but found it tiring to maintain that speed. I think 0.27mm would drop 10-20W of core losses and allow even the big DD to be pedaled w/o power almost as well as a geared motor. Even moreso in a small wheel.

I imagine that 0.27mm lams are good for another 100-150 watts continuous, and another 1-2% efficiency gain, so with that, leafbike could sell this as a real 2000w motor because IMHO the motor is already SUPER close to being a 2000w continuous motor.

0.2mm would only be appreciated by 20" wheel fetishists such as me. We are a very small slice of the market, as there's not many good 20" wheel bikes out there.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: ? on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Dec 19 2018 11:02am

ps, if you want more stator teeth, the magic pie is the way to go. A 700c wheel would love the extra torque. I've been told that the motor is made with 0.35mm laminations now and may have good, but not as impressive efficiency due to the stator having more end turn losses as a side effect of it's narrow design.

Unfortunately, golden motor no longer publishes a dyno graph for the magic pie. The previous magic pie with 0.5mm lams barely hit 79% efficiency, whereas the power equivalent crystalyte HS35xx was boasting 84% peak efficiency with 0.5mm lams. My guess would be that it peaks at 87-89% efficiency these days.

I think this all goes back to the narrow stator and end turn losses problem.

It's unfortunate that the extra wide magic pie was never released to the public. Cuz I would have passed over the leafmotor for that.. :)
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: ? on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by madin88 » Dec 20 2018 2:41pm

neptronix wrote:
Dec 19 2018 11:02am
ps, if you want more stator teeth, the magic pie is the way to go.
The leaf has a 51N46P design, but 56P would have same winding factor according to this simulator:
http://www.bavaria-direct.co.za/scheme/calculator/

So if someone would swap out the magents for 56pcs it would lower the kV by around 20% which means that it would have 20% less copper losses at given torque as the winding (turn count) stays the same :)
With more poles, the back iron in the rotor can be made thinner so they could reduce the weight.
However, the big downside of more poles would be the higher iron losses due to the higher ERPM, but in most sitauation where you need torque, the ETA would be higher.
Unfortunately, golden motor no longer publishes a dyno graph for the magic pie. The previous magic pie with 0.5mm lams barely hit 79% efficiency, whereas the power equivalent crystalyte HS35xx was boasting 84% peak efficiency with 0.5mm lams. My guess would be that it peaks at 87-89% efficiency these days.

I think this all goes back to the narrow stator and end turn losses problem.
...and also because of the high pole count which really needs thinnest laminations and other things like segmented magnets and back iron to keep iron losses low.

my 2C for a possible future Leafmotor:

- higher pole count for lowering copper losses and weight improvements on the rotor (like grin tech motor).
- thinner lams and segmented magnets to compensate for the higher iron losses

They even could make a 46P speed version and a 56P torque version, which would be really a torque version then and not just marketing bs**** as those lower kV versions are often advertised^^

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by rlewis » Dec 21 2018 10:56am

neptronix thank you for your detailed information on leaf motor both on YouTube and the forums. I am very interested in the 6t winding, 60a programmable controller and a 27.5 wheel. It s also worth mentioning that I live in live in the foothills of NC mostly flat with a some shorter hills. Your rides and videos are a blast but I am concerned that with a "normal" battery (52v 17ah 30a continuous) that this motor may not have an opportunity to shine. I will be fine at 30-35 top speed but it seems like the torque efficiency gains really are as you push the motor beyond the average setup. You mention 80a battery draws.

I am also very curious about the Mac 6t. Given my 30 amp battery bottleneck, I could push a smaller, lighter motor pretty hard. The down side is initial cost and wear. The simulator data is surprisingly close. Do you see a clear winner for the average dyi'er without a high output battery?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Dec 21 2018 12:03pm

Yo!

Your battery limitation makes life difficult..
30A x 52v = 1560W ( not accounting for voltage sag ), so your absolute top speed with that power would be 'bout 35mph on any motor. Except to make that top speed, you need the most efficient motor you can get your hands on.

That motor, currently, would be the leaf 1.5kw in that power range, because the MAC might be lighter and has better winding choices, but is going to have 4-6% less efficiency, thus your top speed on a MAC would be closer to 33 or 34mph on that wattage.

If lightness is important and you can sacrifice a little top speed, go with the MAC and pick a winding that does approx. 30mph continuous ( use the ebikes.ca motor simulator to find out what cruises at around 30mph on 52v; my guess is a 10T MAC )

You can see from the datasheet posted in the first pages that the leafmotor has it's efficiency peak at around 1000w though, so those times you're traveling at 30mph will be good times.

If you're not going to do much in the way of riding this winter, i'd hold out for two motors though at least until spring..
1) extra wide MAC. ( no promises, but recent rumors they're getting started on playing with it again )
2) leafmotor 1.5kw with 0.27mm laminations. ( could very well happen - i will follow up with leafmotor in the future. )
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: ? on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.

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