Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » May 19 2019 2:24pm

The Toecutter wrote:
Apr 16 2019 12:09am
neptronix wrote:
Jan 22 2019 1:08pm
I'm back to trying to convince leafbike to produce a 0.27mm or 0.2mm lamination version of this motor..
Offered $500 for a single motor to cover any R&D costs they may incur.

Fingers crossed.
Any word back regarding this? This motor has so much more potential, and I think the market would respond very positively to this.
I keep getting 'let me get back to you' or 'we are not sure if we can do that' type responses for some months now.
My guess is that it is not going to happen.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » May 19 2019 5:03pm

neptronix wrote:
May 19 2019 2:24pm

I keep getting 'let me get back to you' or 'we are not sure if we can do that' type responses for some months now.
My guess is that it is not going to happen.
Damn that sucks.

It's sad that this is about the best motor on the market available at the hobbyist level. Thre's so much potential for something better.

I'd want an ebike motor built to the specifications below:

http://driverless.amzracing.ch/en/team/2019
The four self-developed AMZ M7 wheelhub motors deliver 38.4 kW each at a weight of just under 3 kg. A staged planetary gearbox transmits the motor's torque, resulting in 375 Nm at the wheel. Thanks to an advanced vehicle dynamics control including torque vectoring and traction control, the ...
In order to get that kind of power peak delivery with such small mass without being destroyed, efficiency must be very high(> 95%). I'm wondering when we'll finally see hub motors with specs like the above available. The technology is certainly there... and I'd bet the cogging losses would be so small as to be unnoticeable, while the inertia losses would be greatly reduced over the 16 lb Leafbike motor, making such a thing ideal for pedaling if the battery ends up drained or must be turned off. AND it would allow enough power, with the right battery/controller selection, to push a sub 100 lb electric velomobile from 0-60 mph in around 3 seconds.

For now, at least when I get the money to justify it, I'll have to settle with a Leafbike motor. It won't let a sub 100 lb electric velomobile do 0-60 mph in 3 seconds though, but it would definitely keep up with traffic and allow for burnouts, perhaps 0-30 mph in 3 seconds at 6 kW with cooling fans added.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » May 20 2019 12:46pm

The Toecutter wrote:
May 19 2019 5:03pm
[I'll have to settle with a Leafbike motor. It won't let a sub 100 lb electric velomobile do 0-60 mph in 3 seconds though,
Tires and chassis that would allow an e-velomobile to weigh less than 100 lbs would not tolerate that kind of acceleration. You have more than a little bit of sci-fi technology to wait for, if that's what you're after. Not just a magic motor and magic batteries.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » May 20 2019 6:47pm

38.4kw from a 3kg? motor? that'd have to be 99% efficient.. or that is a peak, not continuous value.
Regardless, there's probably multiple stages of reduction to the rear wheel, so things get much heavier from there.

It is clear that 0.27mm lams are the next evolution for bicycle hub motors. A representative for MAC told me that the cost versus 0.35mm was about $20 per motor - a small price to pay for an increase in efficiency which means you can shave some battery off a build.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » May 20 2019 7:21pm

neptronix wrote:
May 20 2019 6:47pm
It is clear that 0.27mm lams are the next evolution for bicycle hub motors. A representative for MAC told me that the cost versus 0.35mm was about $20 per motor - a small price to pay for an increase in efficiency which means you can shave some battery off a build.
Bicycle hub motors don't run at high enough RPM to benefit significantly from ultra thin lams. Justin has said so himself, based on empirical research.

If the wheel is small enough in diameter or the road speed is high enough to make ultra thin lams beneficial, then it isn't a bicycle hub motor, is it?
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » May 20 2019 7:47pm

Chalo wrote:
May 20 2019 7:21pm
Bicycle hub motors don't run at high enough RPM to benefit significantly from ultra thin lams. Justin has said so himself, based on empirical research.

If the wheel is small enough in diameter or the road speed is high enough to make ultra thin lams beneficial, then it isn't a bicycle hub motor, is it?
I just happen to want to spin mine up to 1000rpm in a 20 inch wheel, if you weren't following the previous pages.
But most importantly, i want the lowest drag possible, but i also must have regen. The bike is for long distance touring.

Even in a 26 inch wheel, the MAC gained a few percentage points of efficiency with the 0.27mm lams, so there are situations where they're a good idea for larger wheels, especially when we are talking about geared motors.

It's a bicycle hub motor if it's designed to fit in a bicycle's dropouts. :)
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » May 20 2019 7:50pm

neptronix wrote:
May 20 2019 7:47pm
Chalo wrote:
May 20 2019 7:21pm
Bicycle hub motors don't run at high enough RPM to benefit significantly from ultra thin lams. Justin has said so himself, based on empirical research.

If the wheel is small enough in diameter or the road speed is high enough to make ultra thin lams beneficial, then it isn't a bicycle hub motor, is it?
I just happen to want to spin mine up to 1000rpm in a 20 inch wheel, if you weren't following the previous pages.
60mph. Not a bicycle.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » May 20 2019 7:53pm

Go pick an argument somewhere else.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » May 20 2019 8:46pm

Chalo wrote:
May 20 2019 12:46pm
Tires and chassis that would allow an e-velomobile to weigh less than 100 lbs would not tolerate that kind of acceleration. You have more than a little bit of sci-fi technology to wait for, if that's what you're after. Not just a magic motor and magic batteries.
A chassis and body could be made to do it with today's tech, depending on where one is willing to compromise with regard to the design. Tires are a different issue, although slip detection systems could allow the fastest possible acceleration, whatever it may be(somewhere between 0-60 mph in 3-5 seconds, depending on coefficient of static and rolling friction values for the drive wheel's tire and weight distribution of trike).

We're at the point where a 1 lb controller, 7 lb hub motor, and 10 lb battery pack could do the trick for the drive system giving close to 50 peak horsepower, if only the parts were available off the shelf and not unobtanium at the hobbyist level(the battery is obtainable, at least, at about 1 kWh in storage capacity, but not the motor and controller, even though they exist as functioning prototypes used in prototype vehicles). Add in 6 lbs for battery box, wiring, turn signals, torque sensing bottom bracket, lights. We've got 24 lbs so far.

There's a limited production DF "M" velomobile, full complete vehicle, coming in at 26 lbs, of which there's a few lbs of wheels/tires/suspension to be removed. This velomobile is nominally capable of handling a 1 horsepower human making 200+ lb-ft of torque at very low rpm and about 80 lb-ft at 60 rpm, and capable of handling 50+ mph speeds, without being destroyed. Although, it isn't exactly sturdy or reliable for daily use, it's a good base to consider. We're at slightly under 50 lbs so far, before beefing it up to handle the desired speed/power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89FXMlsgetE

Add a rigid chrome molybdenum frame with integrated roll cage, running the lightest moped rims that can be found along with some solar race car tires up front and a sticky motor cycle tire for the drive wheel, hubs/spindles that can handle triple digit speeds, a Schlumpf drive to allow human power to be added anywhere within the vehicle's full usable speed range, lexan windshield/windows, roof, racing kart suspension, and something close to that 100 lbs, if not a bit less, could be reached, as there's still close to 50 lbs to work with for placing all of these components and keeping under the weight limit, and the roll cage would make the already rigid and currently existing frameless monocoque velomobile, extremely more rigid and capable of handling a shit ton more power/torque/speed reliably(how much more so would be an interesting and complicated design study).

With a 200 lb rider and 20 lbs luggage with a 100 lb vehicle, 50 horsepower would give it a power to weight ratio comparable to a Tesla P100D. The P100D does 0-60 mph in 2.7 seconds, although this hypothetical vehicle won't have all wheel drive which will hamper its potential.

And if you want to talk sci fi materials, wait until someone figures out how to print a monocoque and rims out of carbon nanotubes.
Chalo wrote:
May 20 2019 7:21pm

Bicycle hub motors don't run at high enough RPM to benefit significantly from ultra thin lams. Justin has said so himself, based on empirical research.
I could see a velomobile application with a hub motor benefiting from it, even at low power levels of < 750W.
Chalo wrote:
May 20 2019 7:50pm

60mph. Not a bicycle.
Depends on what U.S. state you are in, and the vehicle's specs.
neptronix wrote:
May 20 2019 6:47pm
38.4kw from a 3kg? motor? that'd have to be 99% efficient.. or that is a peak, not continuous value.
Regardless, there's probably multiple stages of reduction to the rear wheel, so things get much heavier from there.
I think that's a peak value. I'm not aware of a 99% efficient motor, although motors of 95% peak efficiency, like the Astroflight 3220, are available.

Too bad we don't have the thinner laminations available on this Leafbike motor. The peak power and maximum continuous power would increase substantially, I^2R losses being what they are.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » May 20 2019 9:53pm

neptronix wrote:
May 20 2019 7:53pm
Go pick an argument somewhere else.
You're the one who asserted that "bicycle hub motors" could benefit from thinner lams. I told you why that isn't the case, and then you described a speed regime that isn't part of a bicycle's job. So you might be talking about some kind of hub motor, but it sure isn't a bicycle hub motor. Those don't need thinner lams to give their best performance/cost ratio.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » May 21 2019 1:12am

50 horsepower in a velomobile sounds like a very cool way to die :lol: 8)
If only the smaller motors in our size range were built in such an efficient manner though.. I think the new GNG X1-pro or whatever it is might be worth buying. Apparently it is 90% efficient at the least. at 3.5 kg or ~8lbs for the entire drive, it has an amazing power to weight ratio per dollar. https://www.cycmotor.com/x1-pro

gear down.png
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Here is the motor i'm thinking about getting. a 27mm 9C, lol. These 0.35mm motors love being spun up.. and the aerodynamic advantage of the vehicle helps it get there. The only thing is, i know i could be getting ~91% efficiency instead of 86.5% if not for some slightly thinner lams, because the semi recumbent reduces the load per mph to a point where eddy currents start to dominate ( i see out of control eddy currents in my 20" eZee motor )

If you wanted to build a velomobile, then you'd have this problem even more than i do. Frankly i think a rear chain to wheel drive is ideal.

Don't mind chalo, this behavior is completely normal for him. :mrgreen:
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » May 21 2019 2:16am

neptronix wrote:
May 21 2019 1:12am
50 horsepower in a velomobile sounds like a very cool way to die :lol: 8)
Only if you wreck. The other vehicles on the roads with orders of magnitude more mass are the biggest risk factors pertaining to this.

Racing kart operators safely push their machines to the limits all the time. There's no reason an electric-assist velomobile couldn't be designed with similar principles and performance in mind, and such a thing could even be much safer than an upright ebike. If most of the cars were hypothetically removed from the roads, such vehicles may even end up being safer than cars due to the reduced kinetic energy involved in crashes.

You'd be surprised how much of the impact a body will absorb to reduce the impulse suffered by the rider. Take a look at the following horrific crashes of automobiles with velomobiles where the velomobile riders actually survived:

Milan sideswiped by Ford Fusion at 35 mph:

http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageb ... stcount=21

Alleweder A2 T-boned by a car:

http://www.velomobiles.co.uk/2012/09/ve ... sh-safety/

Quest hit by truck at highway speeds:

https://www.bentrideronline.com/message ... p?t=113466

Quest hit by driver at intersection:

http://www.bentrideronline.com/messageb ... stcount=28

Without these body shells covering the riders, it is doubtful they'd have survived the collisions.
If only the smaller motors in our size range were built in such an efficient manner though.. I think the new GNG X1-pro or whatever it is might be worth buying. Apparently it is 90% efficient at the least. at 3.5 kg or ~8lbs for the entire drive, it has an amazing power to weight ratio per dollar. https://www.cycmotor.com/x1-pro
The major problem with mid drives is that bicycle chains aren't built to handle the kind of power they can deliver. I like hub motors for this very reason, because the human power drivetrain components can have their loads isolated from the output of the much more powerful(and potentially destructive) EV drivetrain components. The problem is that most hub motors are so inefficient that they have to be large and heavy to make decent power, the inefficiency introducing all kinds of losses to the pedal-only output even when the electric motor's output is not in use, requiring yet more rotational mass to be accelerated as a result, turning what should be fun and useful exercise into a chore. With a hub motor, it needs to be light with minimal losses so that with the motor de-activated, the bike can still be operated under pedal-only with as close to an imperceptible amount of drag as possible to the rider. A vehicle that can run on either electric only, as a pedal assist, or human power only when desired is versatile and reduces any risk of the operator being left stranded or suffering any range anxiety. Then there's the issue of regen; it adds versatility to the vehicle because if the battery is drained, the rider can always choose to ride up a steep hill or mountain, then use regen to recharge the battery on the way down if needed, which could then be used to keep the vehicle's lights/signals on or charge personal electronic devices, or provide the small amount of power needed to reduce motor cogging losses to next to zero.

No-one sells a hub motor ideal for an ebike application that is still 'easy' to operate with the motor disabled but is capable of providing dangerous levels of power. There's definitely an opportunity there, and I know enough to put a prototype together(I've built a custom AC generator before for a wind turbine). If I had the money and tools, I'd try to build something approaching my ideal motor, but I don't, so until then, that kills that idea on my part.
Don't mind chalo, this behavior is completely normal for him.
I've noticed.

He did once say he likes it when people try to build cars out of bicycles.

Given that there are nearly 8 billion people on this planet, projected to reach 11 billion late this century, with nearly all of them desiring personal individual rapid transportation that isolates them from the elements, every single one of them owning and regularly using a normal sized car is neither possible, tenable, or sustainable. Some sort of solution is needed to fulfill this desire in a sustainable manner. An electric velomobile built as a functional hybrid between a car and a bicycle, could still be capable of highway speeds like a car, offer similar comfort, with orders of magnitude less resource/energy use and environmental impact.

The following vehicle was built by an endless sphere forum member that gives a glimpse of what is possible:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &p=1464663

10 Wh/mi @ 37 mph, without pedaling. That's over 3,000 MPGe, or about 1/20th the energy consumption of a Tesla Model 3 under similar operating conditions.

The technology is there to do it, but the auto industry and fossil fuel companies have a stranglehold over the world's individual transportation paradigm and use economies of scale and their capture of government to cement their advantage, using our tax monies to subsidize the destruction of our planet and ultimately, ourselves. Being that infinite growth on a finite planet is impossible, nature will have the last laugh.

Since it could be made to work with the existing infrastructure meant for automobile traffic while inducing far less wear and tear, such a vehicle could become the future of both the car and of the bicycle, but people will have to want it, governments will have to stop regulating/taxing/controlling transportation, and business will have to accept disruption. Make it able to haul ass and be able to pick on high end musclecars, or do tire smoking donuts in an intersection at 3AM, while costing literal pennies per few hundred miles to operate, and a large number of people WILL certainly want it. This leaves the source of the problem of our current transportation paradigm driving our collective trend towards ecocide: "leadership" in government and business. Cars and fossil fuel consumption make a small group of people a lot of money, mainly business executives and politicians, while simultaneously destroying everyone and the planet they live on. Cars and fossil fuel consumption have been encouraged by society's policy makers to the exclusion of all other alternatives BECAUSE this small group of people can take our money in the process of us getting around. This is why America's mass transit system was gutted in the 1940s and why the automobile and airlines combined receive literally trillions of dollars in taxpayer subsidies to this day. The rich fux feel entitled to our money, and feel we don't have a right to exist if we aren't making them a profit from everything we do, acting as if planet Earth's bounty as well as our lives belong exclusively to them and them alone.

Electric cars are somewhat disruptive to their reigning paradigm, because they cut the oil industry execs out and reduce the "need" for resource wars and are a little bit more difficult to tax with regard to energy use, which is why the leadership expended effort to suppress the technology when it started becoming viable.

An electric velomobile "car" that gets the equivalent of thousands of miles per gallon and can even be pedaled like a bicycle if there's no "fuel" available, while using roughly 1/100th the resources as a full sized fossil fuel powered car, would be even that much more disruptive, but so far, such a thing probably doesn't register as much of a threat to leadership because humanity's engineers haven't proven creative enough to make such a thing reality(Mochet is arguably the closest we've come to such a concept on a successful commercial basis, 80+ years ago, but it is a far cry from what I describe due to the disparity in technology between now and then, and it was during fuel rationing in the middle of a world war and foreign occupation that the product thrived, and then only for a brief period), as the policy makers deem waging endless resource wars, maintaining a sprawling surveillance state, building more than enough nuclear armaments to destroy humanity, globalizing mass consumerism and resource wastage, all as more "worthy" uses of these engineers' collective talent. Being that the necessities of life are withheld from those who aren't born with a silver spoon up their ass unless they work for these rich fux, the rich fux are directing the future of the human race, along with its demise, as our best and brightest are generally too busy making the rich fux more money in order to survive instead of having time to truly change society for the better.

Such a waste.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Chalo » May 21 2019 12:06pm

A 60mph streamliner coffin might be more resource-efficient than a car, but it's almost as hostile and inconsiderate. If we can get everyone on the streets within a city moving at 20mph or less, better things will happen than only energy efficiency. Yes, it will make room for light EVs and human power, but it will also allow humans to reinhabit the majority of the city's area that they've ceded to murder vehicles. That's a degree of resource-efficiency that no vehicular development can touch.

20mph is already superbly efficient, with mundane tech, low cost, and light weight. Like the Leaf 1500W motor, or practically any other hub motor you can name.

I build seven-passenger vehicles that weigh less than 300 pounds. You?
Last edited by Chalo on May 21 2019 2:39pm, edited 1 time in total.
This is to express my gratitude to Justin of Grin Technologies for his extraordinary measures to save this forum for the benefit of all.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » May 21 2019 1:16pm

My concern with such a crazy power to weight ratio is that 50kw is enough power to go perhaps >150mph and hitting an uneven surface could send such a light vehicle flying. These things have happened in salt flats speed runs.

Also, physics are going to get in the way. keeping the front end on the ground at full power would be a design challenge.
Fine enough for demonstrating ultimate power on the drag strip, but not something i'd ride on a regular basis.

For sure, a velomobile is safer than a bike in many ways. Until you mix it in with vehicles that are twice as tall and have difficulty seeing you. Yeah, we could could our carbon footprint in half ( or less ) if we just ride in velomobiles & other bubble shaped things, but we probably never will take that option until we are out of oil. The truth is that nobody gives a shit and/or is willing to be the outlier that changes the world's views about these things. You can't even get an average person interested in hypermiling a car, showing a potential gain of 20% fuel economy.. it is just us weirdos with an affinity for engineering that care about these things, unfortunately.

Maybe in some doomsday scenario of boiling oceans and dark skies, only the crafty engineer type survives and repopulates earth later? :lol:

I fully understand the problems with mid drives vs hubs. I meant to say that the GNG/CYC X1 motor is best used in a direct to rear wheel setup, because transmitting >500w through bike chain is not a great idea.
The Toecutter wrote:
May 21 2019 2:16am
No-one sells a hub motor ideal for an ebike application that is still 'easy' to operate with the motor disabled but is capable of providing dangerous levels of power. There's definitely an opportunity there, and I know enough to put a prototype together(I've built a custom AC generator before for a wind turbine). If I had the money and tools, I'd try to build something approaching my ideal motor, but I don't, so until then, that kills that idea on my part.
I dunno, in a 26 inch wheel, the leaf is surprisingly easy to pedal along at around 18mph for a mile or two. I was also able to travel at around 55mph for a couple miles at a time. Modern day 27-30mm motors are probably a peach to pedal. The big problem comes once you have a small wheel and the dragging torque is increased. That is where the 0.27mm or even 0.2mm lams come in to save the day.

In a velomobile you'll absolutely be crying for 0.2mm lams as the eddy currents will be an even more dominant part of the load, the more aerodynamic you get. You will still have this issue with 26 inch wheels.
I have this issue with the eZee motor ( 21" wheel ) on my semi recumbent. The eddy currents and gear losses dominate the load. The efficiency is shockingly bad under cruising ( ~60% ), but very good while hill climbing ( >80% ) .

Since we cannot get hub motors with lower magnetic drag at this time, the best bet for these types of vehicles is to do rear chain drive reductions, with the ratio carefully selected to keep the motor in it's efficiency sweet spot.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » May 21 2019 11:01pm

Chalo wrote:
May 21 2019 12:06pm
A 60mph streamliner coffin might be more resource-efficient than a car, but it's almost as hostile and inconsiderate.
Only if the operator wants to place themselves at grave risk for hitting a pedestrian. In a 4,000 lb car, there's little risk of physical harm to the driver if colliding with a pedestrian or cyclist, but with a 300 lb laden vehicle, the operator is going to have to be especially careful to be considerate of pedestrians and cyclists in order to reduce their risk as the physics are greatly less favorable to the operator of the light vehicle in these circumstances than for a car, Newton's laws being what they are.

What would make such a hypothetical light vehicle a risk of becoming a coffin more than anything, would still be all of the heavy cars on the road.
If we can get everyone on the streets within a city moving at 20mph or less, better things will happen than only energy efficiency. Yes, it will make room for light EVs and human power, but it will also allow humans to reinhabit the majority of the city's area that they've ceded to murder vehicles. That's a degree of resource-efficiency that no vehicular development can touch.
Zoning regulations need to be addressed for this to become a reality. The massive urban sprawl that currently exists is every bit as much a product of zoning as it is a product of forced auto dependence; in fact both problems reinforce each other.
20mph is already superbly efficient, with mundane tech, low cost, and light weight. Like the Leaf 1500W motor, or practically any other hub motor you can name.
20 mph is also laughably easy for me to maintain without an electric motor, for hours at a time. Without a motor, I could reach 35 mph on flat ground, and have been over 50 mph downhill.
I build seven-passenger vehicles that weigh less than 300 pounds. You?
So far I've put together a functioning velomobile from a KMX framekit and off the shelf parts, weighing in around 65 lbs. It's stable over potholes going downhill at 50 mph and its stability doesn't seem affected by strong crosswinds, and the ergonomics of it worked out great on the first try. I have in excess of 15,000 miles on it by now and plan to put 15,000+ more. It sees about 100-150 miles per week of use these days. The next shell will somewhat address the aerodynamics as that area left a lot to be desired, as well as allow improved rider cooling and full protection from the rain.

It's a far cry from the dream build I've described above, but it's a start. The KMX frame and aftermarket suspension are currently strong/stable enough to handle 10 kW of power and at least 70 mph. An assembled/functioning non-electric KMX trike with bicycle grade components weighs in at 40 lbs, using a material that for a given level of strength is a fair bit heavier than chrome moly. Also, consider there are plenty of racing kart chassis in the 30 lb range built to handle 0-60 mph in under 4 seconds and top speeds in the triple digits. WELL under that 50 lbs we have to work with in that hypothetical velomobile mentioned after we've put the EV parts in a velo shell. For a velomobile, we may even be able to get by with a few pounds less frame weight than a racing kart due to reduced vehicle size along with the chassis rigidity provided by the body shell, even WITH a roll cage added to the frame.

If I could find employment(or a stable income source), I'd have money to improve upon my current KMX-framed velomobile and eventually add an electric drive system and see what kind of performance and range I can come up with using hobbyist level components, as well as money to start trying my own custom frame. I have a frame design already waiting to be built, but don't know yet whether or not it will work because I have yet to put it together.

Now that my tax refund has come in, I'm taking about 1/5 of that money and upgrading some of the components on my KMX so that I can make it faster/more efficient as well as adding a much needed parking brake and turn signals along with gearing more applicable for my needs(largely thanks to your advice). It will still be a full on HPV for the forseeable near-term future, but I know from what others have built using this frame that a sub-100 lb velo capable of safely cruising at 35 mph and accelerating like a car can be done, and would like to take it in that direction.

I also put together an electric car conversion of a Triumph GT6. It runs and drives, but is neither finished nor road legal. It was first driven under electric power in 2012 using some tired old golf cart batteries ready for the scrap heap, and with the LiFePO4 batteries I have in it, it now smokes its tires in any gear, 0-40 mph takes about 2 seconds in 2nd gear, haven't driven it any faster.

I don't build vehicles for a living, but I do have a degree in Electrical Engineering, am science literate, and have some modicum of knowledge of what's involved in making a vehicle, even if I never built a frame completely from scratch. I'm also helping a friend with some of his drag racing vehicles. I'd LIKE to build vehicles for a living; sounds like a good time, and is what originally motivated me to study to become an engineer in the first place.
Last edited by The Toecutter on May 22 2019 2:21pm, edited 6 times in total.

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The Toecutter   10 kW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » May 21 2019 11:25pm

neptronix wrote:
May 21 2019 1:16pm
My concern with such a crazy power to weight ratio is that 50kw is enough power to go perhaps >150mph and hitting an uneven surface could send such a light vehicle flying. These things have happened in salt flats speed runs.
A valid concern. The gearing options currently available for bicycle components, say a 3x8 gearing system with 22-44T up front and 34-11T in the back, with a Schlumpf High Speed Drive(multiply gear inches by 2.5x when engaged), would limit such a vehicle to around 100-120 mph at 140rpm at the pedals depending on drive wheel size. Attention to wheelbase, track width, suspension, tire selection, downforce, and other variables would have to be paid to make sure the vehicle is stable at speed, but it's not an impossible task to overcome, especially if one has access to modern CFD software.

Besides, I would think the motor would be at risk of burning out if kept at peak power long enough to reach 150 mph. 100-ish mph would be a good design target, because the forces don't get TOO insane at that speed.
Also, physics are going to get in the way. keeping the front end on the ground at full power would be a design challenge.
Fine enough for demonstrating ultimate power on the drag strip, but not something i'd ride on a regular basis.
Wheelie bars are crude but effective. Rednecks have been using them for the better part of a century at the local drag strip for all manner of machine. It would also be easy to program a "street mode" into the controller if one wants to go fast without killing themselves, but not balls to the wall stupid, which may end up limiting it to 15-20 kW or thereabouts.
For sure, a velomobile is safer than a bike in many ways. Until you mix it in with vehicles that are twice as tall and have difficulty seeing you. Yeah, we could could our carbon footprint in half ( or less ) if we just ride in velomobiles & other bubble shaped things, but we probably never will take that option until we are out of oil.
That day is rapidly approaching, and we don't even need to run out, but experience a major disruption. Have you seen the threats levied towards Iran lately, with Iran threatening to shut off the Straight of Hormuz in retaliation? The price of oil and its availability has proven somewhat volatile for almost half a century, and could become greatly more volatile with a few black swan events, or as Jack Rickard of evtv.me likes to say, a "camel sneeze".
Maybe in some doomsday scenario of boiling oceans and dark skies, only the crafty engineer type survives and repopulates earth later? :lol:
If things get to that point, the crafty engineer types are probably going to be dead, along with everyone else. We may very well get the boiling oceans if runaway global warming becomes reality. The permafrost is melting and it won't be long before we get all of the methane bubbling up from underneath it.
I fully understand the problems with mid drives vs hubs. I meant to say that the GNG/CYC X1 motor is best used in a direct to rear wheel setup, because transmitting >500w through bike chain is not a great idea.
I need to do more research on this motor. Looks interesting.
I dunno, in a 26 inch wheel, the leaf is surprisingly easy to pedal along at around 18mph for a mile or two. I was also able to travel at around 55mph for a couple miles at a time. Modern day 27-30mm motors are probably a peach to pedal. The big problem comes once you have a small wheel and the dragging torque is increased. That is where the 0.27mm or even 0.2mm lams come in to save the day.

In a velomobile you'll absolutely be crying for 0.2mm lams as the eddy currents will be an even more dominant part of the load, the more aerodynamic you get. You will still have this issue with 26 inch wheels.
I have this issue with the eZee motor ( 21" wheel ) on my semi recumbent. The eddy currents and gear losses dominate the load. The efficiency is shockingly bad under cruising ( ~60% ), but very good while hill climbing ( >80% ) .
Exactly. The 0.2mm laminations are what I desperately want. The speeds I'm reaching without any motor at all are something I do not want to give up once I have the motor while operating with said motor disabled.

Once I have the money to buy my controller, torque sensor, motor, batteries, charger, ect., the current Leafbike motor is at the top of my list to experiment with, as it is currently available and it has the best combination of cost, potential for peak power, reliability, and efficiency.
Since we cannot get hub motors with lower magnetic drag at this time, the best bet for these types of vehicles is to do rear chain drive reductions, with the ratio carefully selected to keep the motor in it's efficiency sweet spot.
Do you know of any off the shelf bicycle wheel hubs with a split broach spline or similar construct to allow the bicycle drivetrain and electric motor to each independently add motive force to a single wheel?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » May 22 2019 11:41am

The Toecutter wrote:
May 21 2019 11:25pm
Do you know of any off the shelf bicycle wheel hubs with a split broach spline or similar construct to allow the bicycle drivetrain and electric motor to each independently add motive force to a single wheel?
I don't know of any specialized hubs for this, but google 'disc brake sprocket adapter' and you will find plenty of goodies. Such as the one below.



recumpence also has some very beautiful CNC porn adapters selling for something like ~$80 last time i checked. You have to PM him to get one.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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The Toecutter   10 kW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » May 22 2019 2:10pm

neptronix wrote:
May 22 2019 11:41am
I don't know of any specialized hubs for this, but google 'disc brake sprocket adapter' and you will find plenty of goodies. Such as the one below.

recumpence also has some very beautiful CNC porn adapters selling for something like ~$80 last time i checked. You have to PM him to get one.
Thanks for that info. Maybe this plus a single Astroflight motor or perhaps the motor you linked to earlier is a better solution, although I may just have to start with a Leafbike hubmotor for cost reasons and upgrade to a middrive later.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by qwerkus » May 22 2019 5:04pm

Chalo wrote:
May 21 2019 12:06pm
A 60mph streamliner coffin might be more resource-efficient than a car, but it's almost as hostile and inconsiderate. If we can get everyone on the streets within a city moving at 20mph or less, better things will happen than only energy efficiency. Yes, it will make room for light EVs and human power, but it will also allow humans to reinhabit the majority of the city's area that they've ceded to murder vehicles. That's a degree of resource-efficiency that no vehicular development can touch.
This. Very good point. I know you guys in the US have like 5 times longer commute distances than in Europe, but I also think that 20mph (32KM/h) is a sweet spot for ebikes. 25km/h for cargo and 40-45 km/ho top speed. Anything above that require a whole new degree of engineering, like larger tires, better frame / fork and more weight for more stability and 3mm rotor disc brake. Not to mention extensive body protection and a moped helmet. I'm sure neptronix knows what he's doing, but I figured this comment could be useful for anyone new reading this thread, and just in awe staring at the numbers he pulls... Otherwise very interesting thread. Learned a lot (didn't even know there was a motor called "leaf"!). And I disagree that thinner lams do not make a difference. Anything above 800RPM you can definitely feel it.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by SilverLine » May 30 2019 4:06pm

Anybody knows, whats the name of the m14 thread on the leafbike motor ? I had a metric m14 lock nut laying around, I was planning to use. But the pitch on the leafbike axel, is different.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by qwerkus » May 30 2019 4:27pm

SilverLine wrote:
May 30 2019 4:06pm
Anybody knows, whats the name of the m14 thread on the leafbike motor ? I had a metric m14 lock nut laying around, I was planning to use. But the pitch on the leafbike axel, is different.
I guess it s m14x1.5. If not than fine thread m14x1.25, but that s super rare

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by SilverLine » May 30 2019 4:30pm

qwerkus wrote:
May 30 2019 4:27pm
SilverLine wrote:
May 30 2019 4:06pm
Anybody knows, whats the name of the m14 thread on the leafbike motor ? I had a metric m14 lock nut laying around, I was planning to use. But the pitch on the leafbike axel, is different.
I guess it s m14x1.5. If not than fine thread m14x1.25, but that s super rare
1.5mm ??

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by qwerkus » May 30 2019 4:35pm

SilverLine wrote:
May 30 2019 4:30pm
qwerkus wrote:
May 30 2019 4:27pm
SilverLine wrote:
May 30 2019 4:06pm
Anybody knows, whats the name of the m14 thread on the leafbike motor ? I had a metric m14 lock nut laying around, I was planning to use. But the pitch on the leafbike axel, is different.
I guess it s m14x1.5. If not than fine thread m14x1.25, but that s super rare
1.5mm ??
Yes. See : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread
M14×1.5 is metric standart fine thread 14mm diameter bolt. M14×2 would be the standart coarse thread, used in construction.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by SilverLine » May 30 2019 4:38pm

qwerkus wrote:
May 30 2019 4:35pm
SilverLine wrote:
May 30 2019 4:30pm
qwerkus wrote:
May 30 2019 4:27pm
SilverLine wrote:
May 30 2019 4:06pm
Anybody knows, whats the name of the m14 thread on the leafbike motor ? I had a metric m14 lock nut laying around, I was planning to use. But the pitch on the leafbike axel, is different.
I guess it s m14x1.5. If not than fine thread m14x1.25, but that s super rare
1.5mm ??
Yes. See : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread
M14×1.5 is metric standart fine thread 14mm diameter bolt. M14×2 would be the standart coarse thread, used in construction.
Thanks
But I do not think, this is a fine thread

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by thundercamel » Jun 20 2019 4:27pm

I took some pictures of my Ebikeling 1500w motor last night:
Thread here

I think this might be a clone of the Leaf Bike 1500w motor... Ebikeling doesn't post a dyno graph, but lo and behold it at least has 0.35mm laminations! Could it's efficiency be close to 90%?

I'm guessing it's a 4 turn motor; unloaded speed on a 700x38c tire was I believe 52mph around 52 volts. The controller says 35 amps, but the sw900 programming on P14 has a range of 1-20 amps (I need to test if this actually changes anything), and my smart BMS says it's drawing 31 amps from 1mph to 33+mph.

Feel free to leave comments in the thread linked above, as to not clutter the Leaf Bike thread too much.
Last edited by thundercamel on Jun 20 2019 5:28pm, edited 1 time in total.
My Ebike builds - Existing bikes, affordable motor kits, self built 14s6p batteries - Now with more recumbent!

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