Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Jun 20 2019 4:36pm

There's a lot of clones out there. A lot of these companies are kind of slapping together common parts and calling it 'their motor'. This kinda design has been around for well over a decade.

The ebikeling motor doesn't look too bad, maybe the windings are a tiny bit sloppier. You may be within a hair of the efficiency of the leafbike hub.

I bought another motor from leafbike recently, a 3T 1000W ( 30mm wide ) hub. Will report on that later.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by tolkaNo » Jun 20 2019 11:23pm

It's happening alot now, my late 2017 1000w conhismotor hub surprisingly came in 30mm and 0.35mm lams

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Jun 21 2019 12:35am

tolkaNo wrote:
Jun 20 2019 11:23pm
It's happening alot now, my late 2017 1000w conhismotor hub surprisingly came in 30mm and 0.35mm lams
That's impressive for a brand not normally associated with anything exceptional. Maybe the manufacturers are phasing out those old chunky 0.5mm lams.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Jun 24 2019 7:00pm

My 3T 30mm wide leaf is 21.51kV. Only suitable for a recumbent or 16 inch wheeled bike, for sure. In a 20 inch rim, it will do 50mph on 14S ( 50.4v ). I imagine the 3T 35mm wide leaf hub would be equally crazy. 4T is as low as you should go.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by pwd » Jun 27 2019 12:50pm

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for some thoughts and opinions. I've been running a leafbike 1500W for over a year now and I'm pretty happy with it but I like the idea of more lbs of thrust and greater efficiency (cooler running motor) of a slightly smaller wheel.

I also currently use field/flux weakening to achieve top speeds of approximately 62 kmph on flat and a torque increase at higher rpm. If I went with a 24 inch wheel and increase flux weakening even more; would it be worth the effort or should I just stick to my 26 inch wheel?

Here is a comparison of my current config with 26 inch rim VS 24 inch rim:
https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h ... &throt=100
Current Build:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
em3ev 14S5P 30Q + 14S6P 25R pack
Build Thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=98286

Old Build:
GIANT ATX 980 w/ Cycle Analyst v2.25
Golden Motor Magic Pie (internal controller) X2
14S3P 15aH: 6X 6S 5000mAh + 3X 2S 5000mAh LiPo pack

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Jun 28 2019 10:40am

Flux weakening provides an efficiency hit, from what i've read.. more volts, or different winding, is much better.
Unfortunately you won't notice much of a difference between a 26 inch and 24 inch wheel. I've done it and wasn't super impressed.

What winding motor do you have?
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by pwd » Jun 28 2019 12:03pm

Thanks for the reply neptronix. I am using the 5T winding. The 5T was my choice mainly because I was somewhat limited with my max battery amps I could deliver but I am now running enough for 80A peak discharge.
Current Build:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
em3ev 14S5P 30Q + 14S6P 25R pack
Build Thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=98286

Old Build:
GIANT ATX 980 w/ Cycle Analyst v2.25
Golden Motor Magic Pie (internal controller) X2
14S3P 15aH: 6X 6S 5000mAh + 3X 2S 5000mAh LiPo pack

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Jun 28 2019 12:17pm

Looks like a 4T in a 24" wheel would probably be more ideal for you, since you have so much amp output at the ready.

Here's a simulator link for you with the kV of the 5T motor adjusted to that of the 4T.

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h ... .4_0.01_20

One thing you should consider is the tire selection. It's not so great for 24" wheels. See if there is a suitable tire before you take the leap..
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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The Toecutter   10 kW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Jun 30 2019 2:16pm

neptronix wrote:
Jun 20 2019 4:36pm

I bought another motor from leafbike recently, a 3T 1000W ( 30mm wide ) hub. Will report on that later.
I'm very curious to hear back with regard to whether or not it is easier to pedal than the 1500W version with the drive system disabled, and if so, by how much.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Jul 01 2019 11:55am

Sorry, but i can't make a comparison because my original motor was in a 26", whereas this one will be in a 20" or maybe even smaller..
Generally the less motor, the less drag. You can see this in the ebikes.ca listings that include iron loss figures.

I would imagine that i have 5-10% higher drag than before.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by larsb » Jul 01 2019 2:11pm

why would you get higher drag? same steel, different copper wires, but they are not shorted.

Edit: ah, i see. You're comparing 1000w and 1500w version
Last edited by larsb on Jul 01 2019 3:20pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ride on :D

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by madin88 » Jul 01 2019 3:15pm

The Toecutter wrote:
Jun 30 2019 2:16pm
I'm very curious to hear back with regard to whether or not it is easier to pedal than the 1500W version with the drive system disabled, and if so, by how much.
Drag is proportional to the stator width if the magnetic circuit is identical. So the 35mm Leaf will have around 15% higher drag as 30mm version.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by pwd » Jul 03 2019 9:48am

neptronix wrote:
Jun 28 2019 12:17pm
Looks like a 4T in a 24" wheel would probably be more ideal for you, since you have so much amp output at the ready.

Here's a simulator link for you with the kV of the 5T motor adjusted to that of the 4T.

https://www.ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.h ... .4_0.01_20

One thing you should consider is the tire selection. It's not so great for 24" wheels. See if there is a suitable tire before you take the leap..
Damn, I was just playing with the simulator. I knew that a lower turn count would give more rpm/volt but I didn't realize it would also give a broader power band like running a higher voltage. :oops: Looks like it might actually be worth switching to a 4T in a 24 inch wheel. :thumb:
Current Build:
Rocky Mountain Element
Magic Pie 4 front + Leafmotor 1500 rear w/ WCEC 18fet
em3ev 14S5P 30Q + 14S6P 25R pack
Build Thread: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =6&t=98286

Old Build:
GIANT ATX 980 w/ Cycle Analyst v2.25
Golden Motor Magic Pie (internal controller) X2
14S3P 15aH: 6X 6S 5000mAh + 3X 2S 5000mAh LiPo pack

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by markz » Jul 23 2019 3:33pm

Leaf 1500W now has a cassette version, states that its new on their website, how new I do not know.
I am buying just the hub, as I burnt my mxus motor.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Jul 23 2019 3:37pm

I believe the casette version has a 12mm axle on at least one side. I wouldn't recommend buying it, unless they've revised the interface to have two 14mm axles. Otherwise you'd be best advised to run the motor closer to what it's rated for, rather than what it's actually capable of.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Aug 01 2019 9:57pm

markz wrote:
Jul 23 2019 3:33pm
Leaf 1500W now has a cassette version, states that its new on their website, how new I do not know.
It's been around for at least five months, but they didn't advertise its availability.
neptronix wrote:
Jul 23 2019 3:37pm
I believe the casette version has a 12mm axle on at least one side. I wouldn't recommend buying it, unless they've revised the interface to have two 14mm axles. Otherwise you'd be best advised to run the motor closer to what it's rated for, rather than what it's actually capable of.
I want to see them make a variant of this motor where the cassette won't risk bending the axle or cracking the motor case when the rider is pedaling hard with the chain in the smaller cogs towards the outside of the axle.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Aug 01 2019 11:38pm

The Toecutter wrote:
Aug 01 2019 9:57pm
I want to see them make a variant of this motor where the cassette won't risk bending the axle or cracking the motor case when the rider is pedaling hard with the chain in the smaller cogs towards the outside of the axle.
Let them know. They actually respond to emails in legible english. :)
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Aug 22 2019 11:51pm

Any new data on the 1 kW version of this motor, such as what kind of peak power one can reasonably expect from it without destroying it?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Aug 23 2019 10:17am

The Toecutter wrote:
Aug 22 2019 11:51pm
Any new data on the 1 kW version of this motor, such as what kind of peak power one can reasonably expect from it without destroying it?
Wish i could provide some. My application will be in a 20" wheel in a very aerodynamic ( recumbent ) chassis so whatever result i have won't apply to most folks thinking of using the motor.

I can tell you from opening up the 30mm version is that it's as finely constructed as the 35mm motor i bought in late 2014 that started this thread. I think we can expect the dyno data that leafbike has presented us to be as accurate as it was for the 35mm.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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The Toecutter   10 kW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Aug 23 2019 10:41am

neptronix wrote:
Aug 23 2019 10:17am
Wish i could provide some. My application will be in a 20" wheel in a very aerodynamic ( recumbent ) chassis so whatever result i have won't apply to most folks thinking of using the motor.
Those results will apply to my project quite nicely though. :thumb:

With the new job I obtained, I'm planning on adding a rear suspension(already have front suspension) and going to 16" moped rims all around and possibly Mitas MC2 tires all around(comparable in diameter to 20" bicycle tires/rims), with a Schlumpf HS drive on a 152mm 26/39/52T crankset and 34-11T rear gearing. Either the 1000W or 1500W motor set up with a 3T wind and a 20s4p pack of Panasonic 2170 cells, combined with gearing that would allow climbing steep hills un-powered at 3 mph and 60 cadence and barreling down the highway at 85 mph and 120 cadence, and everything in between, with human power capable of adding to the propulsion at all operating points, would make this vehicle a viable car replacement that performs in a car-like manner, that could be operated like a velomobile with the drive system completely disabled, operate silently with the drive system enabled, and strongly resemble AND FUNCTION LIKE a normal velomobile to the cops with all the electrical guts hidden out of view thanks to the use of a hub motor.

Personally, I'm leaning towards the 1000W motor more than the 1500W motor in spite of the reduced possible power, mainly for the lowered resistance while pedaling unpowered as well as the reduced weight/inertia losses. You don't need much power to go fast in a velomobile, and my next design is going to be significantly more efficient than my last, possibly only needing 6 kW to do 90 mph. Now whether the vehicle would be safe or the motor reliable at such a speed would be another argument altogether, as I don't plan to be pushing its limitations on a regular basis, but have 30-45 mph cruising speeds in mind as the default mode of operation(with a Panasonic 2170 20s4p battery pack plus my pedal input in such a usage case, I would easily have a range in excess of 150 miles plus the ability to cruise on flat ground at 20+ mph with the motor off when the pack runs dead, and with recharge/meal stops along the way, possibly could cover 500 miles a day in such a vehicle for pennies worth of electricity and a few dollars of food/water).
I can tell you from opening up the 30mm version is that it's as finely constructed as the 35mm motor i bought in late 2014 that started this thread. I think we can expect the dyno data that leafbike has presented us to be as accurate as it was for the 35mm.
My guess then is that the 1 kW motor may be good for 3 kW peak unmodified, and if it is similarly under-rated like its larger brother, perhaps 1.5 kW continuous. Which may mean with fans/ferrofluid/holes/other mods, possibly up to 6-7 kW peak for short bursts and 2 kW continuous.

I'm looking forward to your results and to you completing this project.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by tolkaNo » Aug 23 2019 12:40pm

FWIW I've got a motor similar to the leaf 1000w and it's taking 2.6-3kw and I can barely even heat it up. It's got every mod though, 24" wheel, ferrofluid, inside side covers painted black etc

My battery is only 18s5p 30q so id probably run out of battery before I could overheat it anyway

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Aug 23 2019 2:24pm

tolkaNo wrote:
Aug 23 2019 12:40pm
My battery is only 18s5p 30q so id probably run out of battery before I could overheat it anyway
I bet you could do it in under a minute if you put 7 kW to it, but you'd probably destroy the battery too.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by tolkaNo » Aug 23 2019 2:41pm

The Toecutter wrote:
Aug 23 2019 2:24pm
tolkaNo wrote:
Aug 23 2019 12:40pm
My battery is only 18s5p 30q so id probably run out of battery before I could overheat it anyway
I bet you could do it in under a minute if you put 7 kW to it, but you'd probably destroy the battery too.
I bet it would last longer than a minute

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by The Toecutter » Aug 23 2019 3:00pm

tolkaNo wrote:
Aug 23 2019 2:41pm
I bet it would last longer than a minute
That would be great news. I'd only need about 20-25 seconds to accelerate to a 90 mph top speed in such a vehicle with that kind of power on tap, and probably wouldn't want to keep at that speed for very long...

Really only one way to find out though. Were money no object for me, I'd gladly destroy components just to find their limits and publish the findings.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Aug 23 2019 4:35pm

Re velomobile vehicle usage..

Playing with the ebikes.ca simulator, i realized that a 30mm wide DD is enough to push my 100lbs semi-faired recumbent up some ~10 mile 7% grades. it is the bare minimum of what i need in a long distance vehicle that peaks at 50mph. If i ddin't live next to the continental divide, a 27mm hub work and be more ideal ( less eddy currents ), except that takeoff power just won't be as strong.

Unfortunately leaf does NOT offer the lighter 27mm, so you'd have to go with MXUS or 9C and pray they'll provide you at least a 4T winding..

My 3T 30mm motor is wound a bit too fast for my vehicle, but a 3T is probably just the ticket for what you're looking to do. On 72v it will hit highway speeds. I don't have the battery to feed it's amp needs!
Efficiency is everything :bolt:

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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