Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Electric Motors and Controllers
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by teklektik » May 04 2016 8:41am

Leaf wrote:pn = MF5A-4-60MM
NTC 100K
B25/50 = 3950
Too bad. Incompatible with CA V3.

It would be good to get them to make available an NTC 10K part with beta of B25/85 or B25/100 = 3900 (acceptable beta range = 3800-4000, so 3950 is ok).
With motor temps peaking over 120degC, a beta specified between 25 and 50degC is pretty far away from the operating range of interest...
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Wheazel » May 04 2016 5:50pm

My leaf tempsensor works with the adaptto I use. BUT it does show 0C until it reaches something like 35C. Then it measures, and it seems correct.
Havent taken it apart to confirm the numbers, but they seem plausible.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » May 04 2016 7:45pm

Wheazel wrote:My leaf tempsensor works with the adaptto I use. BUT it does show 0C until it reaches something like 35C. Then it measures, and it seems correct.
Havent taken it apart to confirm the numbers, but they seem plausible.
Duh! I just replaced mine when I saw it wouldn't work at room temperature...it never occured to me that it might need to be warmed up first. :roll: :lol:

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by FluxShifter » May 05 2016 3:09pm

The Leaf motor I got in February of last year has a 10k thermistor under the coils. Works fine with the CAv3. Before I had the CAv3 I tried using a Taylor digital meat thermometer but the resistance of the Taylor thermistor was different and displayed the wrong temp. The Taylor thermometer might work with your motors. Leaf must have switched to the 100k after I purchased mine. It's easy to measure witch sensor you have. Connect your ohm meter to the black hall wire and the wire next to it and you'll have an idea of its a 10k or a 100k.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Allex » May 06 2016 12:43pm

Does anybody knows what halls sensors are inside? Mine is very fishy and shows random speed, it is correct most of the time but can suddenly jump to 200km/h
The leaf is pretty good, my 4T 35mm does 8kW burst and 90km/h on almost empty 18s battery with 24" MTB with midi-e and ovs2 think I will swap it out for 5t
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by __mike » May 06 2016 6:23pm

Looks awesome Alex!! Post some videos once it's completed

I've been riding my leaf powered ebike into work lately a few times. Never done really any 'efficient' rides. 27km trip one way, using ~5200mah average speed 29.5kmhr. Helping pedal of course. Gearing is a little short to pedal more than 35-36kmhr. Roadies like the tow just like when I'm on my roadie I look out for the ebikes to jump on :)

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by MLC » May 08 2016 3:50pm

Wow. Beautiful bike, Alex. I'm not posting anymore pics of mine....embarrassing :oops: .

I'm playing around with the Leafbike 1500W I just received. Here's some data points for general consumption:

- 5T Max No Load RPM: I ordered the 5 turn. I calculated the no load max RPM to be 514.6 RPM. I used the MPH number on the LB display [39.8] and worked backwords to get RPM. Should be close assuming LB can count hall pulses accurately. If anyone wants to check my math (not a terrible idea), wheel size is set to 26".

- The display bounces off 62 watts at full no load speed but I don't trust that. CA3 coming soon...

- Lacing looks fine to me and there was only a little bounce about half way up to full speed. I have 2.3" Big Apple balloon on the hub wheel.

- I did not order a temp sensor but got one anyway! Maybe its standard now? Confirmed its a 100Kohm. Leafbike sent me the same package picture as ThatIguy, a few posts ago. Measuring ~117K at ~68F.

- If you want to know how the "brushless hall/controller/motor tester" responds to this motor and kit, see the thread on "the $29 controller tester". I put a bunch of stuff there.

- I have no battery. To get going I'm using a cheap 48 volt, 350 watt switching power supply. I put a 5 amp fuse in series with the output to reduce the chance of doing damage. Works great for no-load testing.

The motor plus a six gear freewheel fits in my 135mm drops with room for several spacers to line up a 160 disk into existing mechanical calipers (Tektro, Aqula on an XL GT Avalanche 2.0 MTB). Looks like I'll be able to get 7 in there and still use the original disk brakes. (Don't want 7 gears but want the 11t gear on that DNP freewheel.)

If anyone has questions or wants me to look into anything during this process, just ask.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by DRMousseau » May 09 2016 1:22am

New guy here,... and I LUV my 1500w Leaf!
But what would I know,.... I've never had anything else like it!!!

My desire began with an old man wanting "one last motorbike". Jus never thought it'd be a battery powered bicycle!!! And that was only lightly considered AFTER I had carefully weighed the pros and cons of a gas powered bicycle. Heck, I was a week away from a motorcycle purchase jus 20months ago!!!

Since then, and after several HUNDREDS of pages on this site and many others, I decided I jus GOTTA go electric!!! And the 40+ pages in this topic alone tipped the favor of my choice, jus a short 6wks ago, to the Leaf 1500W (updated with heavy wires and temp sensor) and a LunaCycle 52V 11.5ah Panasonic PF pack (both have been my best made choices) and a cheap aluminum framed 29er beach cruiser (my biggest mistake and worst ever choice!). The Leaf arrived quickly and was soon fitted with a Big Apple after scrapping the OE junk tire. New front wheel/tire assembly quickly followed as did 160mm BB7's (another good choice) AND new front triple-tree forks to hold it all (good choice,.. jus NOT for this bike)!!! UGH!!! Did I mention I spent HOURS on the simulator with various motors, controllers, and battery setups in numerous situations??? Other sims too. And PAGES of charts, specs and stats!!!

AND,... it's all I expected, PLUS!!! I gotta admit though, I NEVER really expected the front wheel to leave the pavement and "fly" so easily! Current setup is a bit "spirited" and leaves the front end a little light, even with battery on the bottle bracket... "slightly" extended fork tubes and laid-back seat are the biggest contributors. Hey, it's a Cruiser!!! And when a Harley pulls along side and yells, "DANG man!! Your doin' about 40 on that thing!!!"

Yup! GRINS!!!
Never underestimate an old man on a bicycle!!!

Actually, my best top speed is about 38.7mph, I think. Much as expected with the sims. Leaf's 40A controller and KT-LCD3 will peak sometimes at over 2200W and give me 12miles so of wild, wheel-flyin', fast ridin' on a fresh full charged 52V LunaCycle pack, and never gets anything warm. We're suppose to keep it under 20 here in Florida, and I'm supposed to be jus an old man on a bicycle. Thanks to the folks of the forum here, I've managed the LCD3 a bit, and keep the controller to 20A and speeds under 30 for about 20+ mi per charge,... much, much more if I keep it under 20mph like I'm supposed too. LunaCycle's variable charger let's me cut the charge rate back and regulate my pack charge to 90%,... I like that. The Leaf setup also lets me adjust a higher min cutoff thru the controller instead of relying on bms. I also use regen to full advantage in braking,... I like that too. I try to watch my consumption, and not draw too heavily to extend mileage a bit. And for the most part after only 250km, I'm VERY satisfied! No more wind problems, no more hill problems, and no more loose sand problems!!! And no more walkin' a bike,... well, except for a flat OEM tire once.

YES,........... the bike base in general SUCKS!!! I'll restore the 29er and "dispose" of it,... heck, all the parts are still new and good (except the tires)!!!This summer will see a full custom radical build low-rider from scratch,... sorta. Yup,... got "the bug"! While a mid-drive might suit my design better, I'll instead retain the lovable 1500w Leaf setup (I really like the simplicity and dependability, not to mention the power and punch with room for more), maybe upgrade to a CA3, possibly a controller, and certainly lace it into a new 26" "fat" rear rim with a single-speed cog (never really use anything but the top of the 7-speed anyway), oh, and put the Schwabb on the front in those triple-tree forks, adjusted for a bit better balance of course. I like the small light-weight battery and jus might get another to use together, or separate, as needs require. I found disk brakes to be a MUST with the 1500w Leaf, and will probably upgrade to 180's,.... ya gotta stop! And while Leaf's regen braking is wonderful, it's nearly non-existent under 12mph in busy city traffic!!!

Yup! Thanks guys!! I luv this 1500w Leaf!!!
But what would I know,.... I've never had anything else like it!!!

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by MLC » May 11 2016 10:44pm

A few more data points from a newbie, 5 turn, 1500w Leafbike hub build...

Note: Using the CA3 for measurement; set tire circumference to 1666mm and units to kph so CA3 would read out rpm (kphx10=rpm). No load, max rpm, WOT:

53.8 volts / 547 rpm / 80 watts (10.2 Kv)
47.9 volts / 487 rpm / 67 watts (10.2 Kv)

Falls right in with other results I've seen here....

Here's a nugget (probably old news for the experts but wish I had it 3 days ago):

I had lower than expected rpm from the system (54 volts; ~380 rpm; 30 mph)...

I checked everything (hall/phase wiring, throttle set up, CA3 limits etc, etc.) Bottom line, the issue was that the 3-Position switch connector on the controller was open (I have a 3-Pos switch but connected via the CA3). I had to short the signal (green) to ground (black) of the controller 3 pos switch connector. Fixed (43 mph)

Finally, I'd like to beat a long dead horse one more time (for the newbies' sake). When it comes time to hook up phase and hall connections, just use this (it works):

https://endless-sphere.com/w/index.php/ ... less_Motor

Important: There are 5 steps, not 4. Scroll down and finish the last part of the flow chart (if needed to fix direction).

Still waiting on a 14S/9P 30Q from EM3EV...ooooh but have some wiring to do in the mean time. I'll share what I learn.

MLC

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by that1guy » May 12 2016 3:34am

DRMousseau wrote:New guy here,... and I LUV my 1500w Leaf!
But what would I know,.... I've never had anything else like it!!!

My desire began with an old man wanting "one last motorbike". Jus never thought it'd be a battery powered bicycle!!! And that was only lightly considered AFTER I had carefully weighed the pros and cons of a gas powered bicycle. Heck, I was a week away from a motorcycle purchase jus 20months ago!!!

Yup! GRINS!!!

Yup! Thanks guys!! I luv this 1500w Leaf!!!
But what would I know,.... I've never had anything else like it!!!
Ha! Glad you're having fun! Thanks for the tips.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Allex » May 12 2016 1:50pm

What kind of speed should I get on 4T on 68V and 24" MTB with the wheel of the ground?
I am getting 120km/h which looks like too much for such a winding?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by teklektik » May 12 2016 2:47pm

120kph doesn't look right for a 24" wheel...
Leaf4TNoLoadCalc.png
Leaf4TNoLoadCalc.png (128.49 KiB) Viewed 2727 times
EDIT - fixed plot to use 24" wheel... (oops!)
Last edited by teklektik on May 12 2016 8:37pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Allex » May 12 2016 2:56pm

Thanks :)
GOtta try 5T wonder if I will feel better torque at same amps?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » May 12 2016 6:38pm

That doesn't seem right.
I only get 55-60kph hot off the charger with my 4T Leaf running at ~56V loaded. Unloaded I get 70kph.
I can't see how an extra 12V would push an extra 50kph unloaded unless I'm missing something?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by spinningmagnets » May 12 2016 7:26pm

20-inch bicycle tire? 17-inch moped tire?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » May 12 2016 7:48pm

spinningmagnets wrote:20-inch bicycle tire? 17-inch moped tire?
Both 24" bicycle wheels.

I think either the simulator is off for what ever reason, or it wasn't really a 5T that was sent to Justin.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by MLC » May 12 2016 8:39pm

...or CowardlyDucks system is running a little slow.

If my math is right, it should be running about 739 rpm (no load) at 56 v (56 x 13.2). That's about 85kph (close to the sim). Your numbers say you're running ~609 rpm...

...and 68 volts/4T/24" tire should give about 103 kph (close to sim) (13.2x68...)

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by teklektik » May 12 2016 8:55pm

Oops - I was thinking rpm instead of speed and ignored the wheel diameter above - fixed. So the 120kph figure looks a little wonky...

That said, the simulator shows 10.37 for an approximate Kv for the 5T which is in the ballpark for an earlier Kv 5T value of about 10 based on Leaf dyno data (this post and following...). There's a lot of posts and confusion going on back there, so I'm not sure how those Kv values eventually ended up. On the face of it, though - the simulator result looks okay.
Leaf5TKv.png
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by MLC » May 12 2016 9:25pm

...and confirmed with real-world results. Measured 10.2 Kv, at two different voltages, on a brand new Leaf 1500w 5t last night.
(8 or 9 posts back)

MLC

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » May 12 2016 11:01pm

Hmmm, ok, I can accept that, but I don't think my 'system' is running slow. Remember I run a lower voltage so it normal that I would see lower speeds. I just find it surprising that there is that much difference between the 4T and 5T.

I've also got a HS4080 which I believe is a 4 turn (maybe 3.5T?) and I ran a HS3548 before that which I also believe is a 4 turn. They all ran about this same speed on 16S LifeP04. They all also run about the same speed on 12S LiPo which I mainly run now. That's using a number of different controllers also, so I find it hard to believe I've been doing it wrong all this time.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Kodin » May 12 2016 11:41pm

How many amps are you pushing yours Cowardlyduck?
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » May 13 2016 12:24am

Kodin wrote:How many amps are you pushing yours Cowardlyduck?
For now, the most I regularly push through the Leaf is about 65A...the Adaptto Mini-E's limit. I have used the traction control 'hack' to push about 100A bursts through it, but don't normally leave that on as my batteries didn't like it.
I'm pretty sure I'm giving it enough amps to perform. I'm pretty sure a 4T on 12S LiPo or 16S LifeP04 tops out around 55-60kph normally and there's nothing actually wrong with my setup either.

Cheers
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Kodin » May 13 2016 12:47am

No worries, just was checking. :) I'll let you guys know if I ever get my motor rebuilt what I'm able to reach on my 5T. :P

...Current status of my replacement shaft design...

Image

I got a few dimensions incorrect due to material deflection, but I have everything set up correctly now, and plotted into CAD. Starting again and we'll see how it goes on try #2 this weekend.

Left side is 15mm, right side is 25mm. Using taper-lock bushings with keyways to lock the shaft from turning, and I'll be adding shoulders the bushings seat against so I don't have any chance of the shaft sliding side-to-side either.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Allex » May 13 2016 1:54am

Cowardlyduck wrote:
spinningmagnets wrote:20-inch bicycle tire? 17-inch moped tire?
Both 24" bicycle wheels.

I think either the simulator is off for what ever reason, or it wasn't really a 5T that was sent to Justin.

Cheers
I do hit over 80km/h easily(loaded on the road) with this motor at 18s, without OVS, so I found it rather strange on a 4T
Last edited by Allex on May 13 2016 3:42am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Baron » May 13 2016 2:22am

that1guy wrote:It took a bunch of nagging, but i finally got the NTC thermistor (temp sensor) spec from Leaf.

Type = MF5A-4-60MM
R25 = 100k
B25/50 = 3950


I think some people reported their motor came with R25=10kΩ installed. But IDK if they actually measured it. Luke measured his, https://youtu.be/WZnYc654Nps?t=186 , it was 26kΩ while motor was hot. So it's probably a R25=100kΩ NTC. See this calc, http://www.electro-tech-online.com/tool ... ulator.php

Image
thanks for that. i don't have a leafmotor, but i've been searching for a thermistor that's compatible with my KT series controller and KT-LCD3 (the same controller/lcd that ships with the leafmotor kits). anyone know where i can buy this model thermistor?

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