Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

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spinningmagnets   100 GW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by spinningmagnets » Oct 02 2018 8:28am

122C is 250 in Fahrenheit, thanks for the hard data.

That is the most useful part of forums, away from the company claims and advertisements.

That fits right in with the rule of thumb I have seen around here, to add a temp sensor to the motor core, and keep it below 200F / 93C. The common motors in China use common materials, then get common results.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by tolkaNo » Nov 04 2018 9:36pm

What's the difference in rpm between the 30mm 1000w and 35mm 1500w motors with the same winding?

If i compare the 5T 1500w leaf to something like the MXUS 3005, the 30mm MXUS put's out about an extra 35 rpm in the simulator

Im hoping the 5T 1000w motor will put out a bit higher rpm than the 1500w version because that should get me closer to about 11kv which would give me the ideal top speed that i want

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by sisachosudo » Nov 14 2018 5:06am

Still trying to assimilate all the info in the last 55 pages. Thanks for the detailed review Neptronix :thumb:

Do you know if all the benefits from this Leaf 1500W are applicable to the 1000W version as well? The vendor claims that the less powered version efficiency is 90.5% but I would like to know if some of you have tried the 1000W

From the last pages of this thread I assume that the new 2019 version of this motor does not change much from the originally reviewed by Nep.

Thank you.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by spinningmagnets » Nov 14 2018 7:38am

If i compare the 5T 1500w leaf to something like the MXUS 3005, the 30mm MXUS put's out about an extra 35 rpm in the simulator
The narrower stator has a shorter length of wire in each turn, which affects the kV.
Do you know if all the benefits from this Leaf 1500W are applicable to the 1000W version as well?
The major difference in the Leafbike motors is that they use thinner laminations. If two motors that are almost identical are running side-by-side, with both having the same watts at the input...the motor with the thicker laminations will have more of the input watts converted to waste-heat, and doing that results in slightly less power being converted to wheel-torque.

There has been a recent popularity of hubmotors using a thick aluminum stator support as a "sponge" for heat-spikes during acceleration. I like that, but it is heavier and more expensive. There is a place in this world for a high-efficiency hubmotor that is light and affordable. I highly recommend that anyone who buys a leafmotor should seriously consider adding ferro-fluid, and depending on the severity of the application, maybe even hubsinks.

One place where I feel a direct drive hubmotor is still relevant, is mounted in a 16/17-inch moped rim and driving a longtail cargobike. I think a 4T Leafbike (like that) with ferro-fluid would perform surprisingly well on hills.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 14 2018 10:48am

You're welcome sir. I tried to cover as much as possible in the initial pages, but people have taken this motor way further than i did, which is awesome.

The 1000W version seems to just be a stator width delete. It's peak efficiency point is at a much lower wattage and it is only a pound or two lighter; not really worth it unless you're looking to shave some pounds off say, a 20 inch wheel build which doesn't necessitate a 35mm motor because the smaller wheel bumps the continuous power up A LOT..

I have no experience with the 1000w motor so this is just speculation based on what i've seen.

IMHO the only real difference between the one i bought and what's offered today is thicker phase wires. I ran 12 gauge 2 inches out of the axle immediately upon seeing the tiny wires, so my initial results are probably as good as everyone else's.

I've been looking around for years for something better and not found it yet.

re spinningmagnets; there is a guy on one of my youtube vids about the leaf who has ferrofluid and heatsinks and successfully pushing 10kW peak which is just totally nutso..
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by tolkaNo » Nov 15 2018 10:47pm

1000w should be good upto 2000w though? Since people pump 3000w or more through the 1500w

Plan is to put the 5t 1000w into a 24" wheel with 16s battery with 3077 9fet controller and be able to do around 70kmh hot off the charger and still be able to get around 60kmh at about 20-30% battery, im trying to plan everything as optimally as possible :flame:

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 15 2018 10:54pm

I dunno why you think a 1000w motor would handle what would be about 1800w continuous.
The real continuous of the 35mm motor is around 1900w unless you vent it or throw a hubsink on that bad boy, then you're up to the 2000w continuous i got.

You're gonna have to cut your expectations a lot on that ~2lb lighter smaller motor; unless you want to throw it in a 20" wheel or throw hubsinks and ferrofluid on it, but then you're up to i dunno, 15.5lbs so you might as well buy the 1500w leaf that can handle what you're trying to do and accept the other pound or so.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by tolkaNo » Nov 15 2018 11:10pm

Yeah i can understand that

I was planning on adding ferrofluid and hubsinks on the 1000w to get the best power to weight ratio, and having it in a 24" wheel does help a bit too, but then adding all that shit does just push it closer to the 1500w weight wise depending on how much hubsinks weigh, which im not sure how heavy they are

Still deciding what would be the most optimal
Last edited by tolkaNo on Nov 15 2018 11:13pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 15 2018 11:32pm

The 1500w has a shit ton of potential if you add hub sinks and ferrofluid.

:)
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Nov 16 2018 12:14am

neptronix wrote:
Nov 15 2018 11:32pm
The 1500w has a shit ton of potential if you add hub sinks and ferrofluid.
:)
Or better yet, forced air cooling. :)
I run mine at 6Kw Peak, 3.5Kw cont. :bigthumb:

Cheers
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 16 2018 10:53am

I'm really surprised that you can get rid of all that heat.

The 48v graph from leafmotor shows that 3.5kw is 75% efficient, so you've got a ton of heat to shed.
OK, no way you are running that power at 48v.. instead you have.. 52.. 60.. 72v?
At best you're seeing 80% efficiency. Which is still around 700w of heat.

Have you thought of upgrading to a MXUS 3kW? it's 2lbs more and would operate at a higher efficiency for your power demands. About as light as you get for the power.

ps - the truth is that the MXUS 3kw is that it's actually a 2.25kw rated motor in a 26" wheel. The 3kW measurement was done in a 20" wheel.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Cowardlyduck   10 MW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Nov 16 2018 5:37pm

neptronix wrote:
Nov 16 2018 10:53am
I'm really surprised that you can get rid of all that heat.

The 48v graph from leafmotor shows that 3.5kw is 75% efficient, so you've got a ton of heat to shed.
OK, no way you are running that power at 48v.. instead you have.. 52.. 60.. 72v?
At best you're seeing 80% efficiency. Which is still around 700w of heat.

Have you thought of upgrading to a MXUS 3kW? it's 2lbs more and would operate at a higher efficiency for your power demands. About as light as you get for the power.

ps - the truth is that the MXUS 3kw is that it's actually a 2.25kw rated motor in a 26" wheel. The 3kW measurement was done in a 20" wheel.
Not so surprising when you see how I'm doing it:
DSC_2763.jpg
There is another 6 on the other side also. All together it's like a mini tornado in one side out the other...heat doesn't stand a chance. :)
I'm running 52V in a 24" wheel, and also have Ferro Fluid and Heat sinks and run it on an Adaptto Mini-E with good tuning. So all possible mods known to man have been thrown at this thing apart from water cooling. :P

Yeah, a MXUS would make some sense, and I have one on my Alpha, but my Fighter is all about low weight and agility, so gotta keep the weight down.
It spends 80% of the time cruising at 2-3KW and only needs 6KW occasionally so for the most part doesn't over heat. It will hit 140C up a big hill however, but because of the fans will cool off very quickly when stopped or slowed right down.

Cheers
High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled motor @ 6KW, Heat-sinked Adaptto Mini-E. 49AH, 52V 18650 - 2.5Kwhr
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 16 2018 7:41pm

Geez, other than putting it in a 20" wheel i think you've utilized it as best as possible :)
Not bad.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by SlowCo » Nov 16 2018 7:50pm

Those are some really serious cooling mods :shock:
I wonder what power a QS205V3 would be able to take with that kind of cooling...:twisted:
That would take a huge battery and big controller to try and overheat!

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Nov 16 2018 9:18pm

neptronix wrote:
Nov 16 2018 7:41pm
Geez, other than putting it in a 20" wheel i think you've utilized it as best as possible :)
Not bad.
Thanks. Yeah, I did all this before the advent of FF and Hubsinks, and while it does perform better that those options, it is not worth the time and effort IMO...FF + Hubsinks is good enough for most people.
SlowCo wrote:
Nov 16 2018 7:50pm
Those are some really serious cooling mods :shock:
I wonder what power a QS205V3 would be able to take with that kind of cooling...:twisted:
That would take a huge battery and big controller to try and overheat!
Thanks!
Given that I am managing 6KW peak 3KW Cont. from this 1.5KW rated Leaf motor, that would put a QS205V3 at around 12KW Peak 6KW cont. That is exactly what I've already done with my Alpha (just sold) using a MXUS 3K, but it just has FF + Hubsinks. At 12KW it will overheat when ridden hard, but at 6KW it's normally not a problem. All that is not a problem with the Adaptto Midi-E + 30AH battery I have paired with it. The battery puts out 160A without issue, and the controller never gets hot as it's covered in heat-sinks. The motor is still the weak point and overheats when pushing things really hard with stop/go or steep long hills.

Cheers
High Power LiPo wiring harnesses - 4P - XT90, HXT4mm, 5.5mm. 200Amp+ capable. Global shipping.

Modified Stealth Fighter - Force air cooled motor @ 6KW, Heat-sinked Adaptto Mini-E. 49AH, 52V 18650 - 2.5Kwhr
Cowardlyducks - Stealth Fighter Videos

BikeE recumbent commuter - 9C, 6Fet Grinfineon, internal 17AH, 52V, + on-board solar.

The stuff I make and modify.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by tolkaNo » Nov 16 2018 10:58pm

I dont think they posted an updated efficiency sheet thing for the 1000w, what they have on the website is from 2013 so must be the old laminations

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Nov 16 2018 11:14pm

They've been using the same 0.35mm lams on their motors clearly because well..
Nobody has figured out it is a good idea to move to 0.27mm except MAC motor and some RC motor producers..

Oh, and that new GNG Pro drive that has like 0.2mm laminations or whatnot.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by tolkaNo » Nov 16 2018 11:19pm

If thats directed at me i mean the sheet is from early 2013 so it's probably 0.5mm laminations or something like that

It sucks that theres still alot of room for improvement and the leaf is still probably the best hub motor you can get

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