Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by cwah » Jun 04 2015 1:39am

neptronix wrote:Measure your watts per speed. That's what matters most when you are going for high range. My recommendation would be to crank it up to 2000w for quicker acceleration. It will only draw that for a short period of time, after all. I'm almost certain that you are going to come up with better watts per speed figures on this motor than the bafang/mac/bmc type motors.

With a 26 inch wheel, that's my observation anyway. I was shocked when i saw the watts per speed. I even test them again with a standalone cycle analyst. The watt numbers came out about 5% lower.

I get incredible distance out of my 25ah 48v pack with this motor if i don't go 45mph.. :mrgreen:
yes that works fine for long straight road but I'm in city with red light every 30 seconds. Some longer road... So it makes the motor doing lots of start and stop
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Kodin » Jun 04 2015 5:31pm

Literally only for power up testing. We shall see...

Edit: nevermind. Kelly controller can't limit amps the way I'd probably need to, I don't want to blow any fets in it, and I need moar battery before I do anything with my larger controller as it's built for 48V. Honestly I need to build up the wheel before I put power to it. That way aside from testing, I can start on my swing-arm build. Considering I'm gonna run variable regen eventually, rear brake or no? Upside is if I have a controller failure, I have a brake backup. Downside is more weight and extra stuff to deal with.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Kodin » Jun 08 2015 2:04am

Leafbike has the 1000W splined cassette model on their site:

http://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike ... -1015.html

I assume when the 1500W model has been built up they'll do the same for it. Looks pretty nice so far... Hopefully this week they'll ship my conversion parts.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Malloot » Jun 19 2015 8:41am

Hey,

I am seeing these things pop up all over Aliexpress for much less then on Leafbike.com
i am pretty sure this is the same motor. What do you guys think, is it the same one?

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Qua ... 146.Imjwez
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Cheapest ... 172.Imjwez
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/E-bike-H ... 226.YnmOpo

I am planning to use this motor for a 45kmh torque sensor&sine wave controller build, what power do you guys think is better to buy in terms of efficiency?

I will be running it on a 700c tourbike with reasonably thin tires and low/sportive sit. I basically want to be able to bike about 50km with a 500-600wh battery and i will be pedaling all the time as its flat here and i am not looking to build a moped. I have no idea if this is possible but i would like to be able to program the controller or CA3 to reduce help from the motor gradually from about 40kmh to no help at around 50kmh. Id say id like the effort for going 45kmh be about equal to riding 28kmh on the bike myself. As that is the speed i normally bike at.

Maybe i should make my own thread about this but lets start here for now.

Ps: i have no connection to the motor sellers on Alibaba or anywhere else, i just sell Bosch bikes at work so basically looking at these and posting here is more detrimental then not :)

Ah have found the cassete models on aliexpress aswell, that should be much better

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Jun 19 2015 1:01pm

Don't buy one without an efficiency graph.
A lot of companies are using that case these days, but are selling you a shitty 80% efficient version, negating the entire benefit of this motor.

You know, i've never bought anything of alibaba or aliexpress for a reason. Those sites are seas of crap products, with only a few gems. You have to know what you're doing, or be willing to spin the China vendor wheel of fortune and lose money on a bet.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by nutnspecial » Jun 19 2015 8:36pm

China vendor wheel of fortune


:lol: So funny but true. 'If it lacks the details make for the trails.' Lol I love the trails.
(this is unimportant, but I just ate a freakin mosquito that was eating me. :twisted: )

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Malloot » Jun 20 2015 2:22am

neptronix wrote:Don't buy one without an efficiency graph.
A lot of companies are using that case these days, but are selling you a shitty 80% efficient version, negating the entire benefit of this motor.

You know, i've never bought anything of alibaba or aliexpress for a reason. Those sites are seas of crap products, with only a few gems. You have to know what you're doing, or be willing to spin the China vendor wheel of fortune and lose money on a bet.

I have bought from Aliexpress and yes you have to wade through piles of crap to get a nugget of gold there but believe me there are good resellers there (bought solar cells and Mppt's). I will mail them some to get a feel of the companies.

I have mailed Leafbike about data sheets for the 500, 750, and 1500 watt data sheets as all the data on there site is about the 1000 watt version. But they seem to be extremely bad at reading mails or just avoiding my question as they just replied "the data sheets are on our site". So its not like i am getting a better feeling there then at most aliexpress shops, except that there is one good experience with the motor here.

Any idea's about the rest of my questions in the previous post?

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Jun 20 2015 3:10am

Leafbike is bad at customer service and information. All they have going for them is a nice high efficiency 30mm and 35mm motor. Seriously. I wish they'd fix their web page.

http://www.leafbike.com/products/diy-bi ... t-987.html

The proper dyno for this motor is in this listing and on the first few pages of this post as well.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Cowardlyduck » Jun 20 2015 4:57am

I'm curious since it was mentioned that a lot of manufacturers use the same motor shell and side covers...
Is this the same 90%+ efficient motor design?
http://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike ... w-962.html

And if it is, can anyone comment on weather it would be a drop in replacement for a '1000W' Golden motor?
http://www.goldenmotor.com/
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http://www.goldenmotor.com/hubmotors/HB ... rmance.pdf

It would be awesome if those of us with existing motors like the Golden motor or 9C could just swap out the stator. At only $68 + shipping that would be a no brainer if you've already got a laced wheel and setup you like.

Cheers
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Kodin » Jun 20 2015 9:33am

The 1500W unit you found on aliexpress was the same price as the one I ordered straight from Leafbike. Aside from the language barrier, their customer service has actually been quite excellent in my case; I've asked them about all sorts of options for the motors and the've been happy to provide answers and even ship me custom parts. Hell, I might even get the freehub conversion kit today for my motor... It's been sitting in a DHL warehouse in Portland since yesterday so who knows? If I get it I'll take pics. :D
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Kodin » Jun 20 2015 9:36am

Cowardlyduck wrote:I'm curious since it was mentioned that a lot of manufacturers use the same motor shell and side covers...
Is this the same 90%+ efficient motor design?
http://www.leafbike.com/products/e-bike ... w-962.html

And if it is, can anyone comment on weather it would be a drop in replacement for a '1000W' Golden motor?
http://www.goldenmotor.com/
HBS36R -- Rear Hub Motor
http://www.goldenmotor.com/hubmotors/HB ... rmance.pdf

It would be awesome if those of us with existing motors like the Golden motor or 9C could just swap out the stator. At only $68 + shipping that would be a no brainer if you've already got a laced wheel and setup you like.

Cheers
Don't count on it; why not just replace a golden motor with a legit fully assembled motor? Magnet stack or type may be different, cover diameters and hole positions may be different, shaft and stator shaft bore may be different, etc....

The 1000W and 1500W motors from leafbike both hit 90+% efficiency.
YAG - (Yet Another Genesis) - LeafBike 1500W 5t, Sabvoton SSC048150

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Kodin » Jun 20 2015 8:47pm

Cassette kit arrived! Really wish I knew where they get the cassette units from; I'd love to buy a couple for future motor builds.

Bolt-on cassette! Go figure:
Image

Outer cassette bearing: 6901Z
Image

Image

First issue I've found: cassette bearings are Z or ZZ style covers. Inner is a 6902ZZ, outer is a 6901Z. (yes one Z. Meaning only a cover on one side of the bearing. Due to the nature of bikes and Oregon's ever-present moisture content, I've already ordered 2RS-style (rubber contact seal on both sides) bearings to replace both bearings. Should keep out moisture and debris that way, and keep most of the lube in. Because they were cheap, I got hybrid steel race/ceramic ball units off ebay. I'll post pics when I receive them so you can see install procedure:
Image

Cover for other side looks like the new design used by the 1000W motor; looks like that ridge may allow for a shaft seal to be installed. Hmmmmm....
Image

Image

Image

How they pass the wire through the shaft:
Image

Obviously the shaft is keyed to the stator, and it looks like there's a snap-ring groove on the side without a flange to lock it to the stator:
Image

Cassette end of shaft is smaller diameter just after where inner bearing sits for cassette unit.
Image

(Cassette placed for reference so you get what I mean)
Image

Screws for mounting the cassette unit and the 3mm phase wire bundle:
Image

Brake rotor side: Standard thread.
Image

Cassette side: Slightly finer-pitch thread; they supplied nuts and washers for this side. Not sure if this is because this shaft was cut custom for me or if this will be the final design:
Image
YAG - (Yet Another Genesis) - LeafBike 1500W 5t, Sabvoton SSC048150

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Jun 21 2015 2:54am

Excellent documentation, sir!
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by melodious » Jun 21 2015 9:38am

A seperate/swappable cassette seems a tad "design overboard", even to the point of weakening the structure of that area.

I've had my freewheel sidecover break before, and their design is exactly where the break would happen. Part of their master plan so you just need to buy a smaller replacement part? If so, won't the bolt threads be damaged in a catastrophic cover failure? Wouldn't a one piece sidecover be stronger & resilient?
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by teklektik » Jun 21 2015 9:46am

Unlike the freewheel hubs that have a single bearing in the side cover that leaves the chain force applied to the cantilevered cog assembly, this adapter has both inboard and outboard bearings for support so the chain force goes directly to the shaft instead of the side cover. I'm thinking this is actually stronger.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Jun 21 2015 12:59pm

I had the freewheel side cover break on an original MAC from 2011.
It broke when i was standing on the pedals in the outermost ( smallest ) rear gear.
MAC fixed this design and i got a new sidecover that worked great afterwards.

I'd say that this sidecover looks more secure than what the 2012+ MAC motor setup looks like.. the second bearing should make a big difference.
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by drewjet » Jun 22 2015 6:00am

Based on the recommendations, I ordered a motor for my Walmart Fat tire bike.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by teklektik » Jun 22 2015 8:17am

Kodin wrote: First issue I've found: cassette bearings are Z or ZZ style covers. Inner is a 6902ZZ, outer is a 6901Z. (yes one Z. Meaning only a cover on one side of the bearing. Due to the nature of bikes and Oregon's ever-present moisture content, I've already ordered 2RS-style (rubber contact seal on both sides) bearings to replace both bearings.
It's a little difficult to make out the details, but like the other side cover, this looks like it will take an oil seal which would make this a pretty nice design.
If it's sized right:
  • Instead of replacing the Z/ZZ bearings with RS, I would pop a seal in there and keep the low drag Z bearings. Fill the inner void between the bearings half full of grease before slipping in the shaft - same structure, same procedure as auto wheel bearings. Heat/rotation will lube the bearings from the grease cavity. Debur and grease the shaft threads before inserting through the seal to avoid snags/tearing.
I run ZZ bearings with external seals in my BMCs. Nice.
leaf1500OutboardCassetteBearing.jpg
leaf1500OutboardCassetteBearing.jpg (16.59 KiB) Viewed 2491 times
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by spinningmagnets » Jun 22 2015 8:54am

Excellent pics! I have never owned a cassette freehub, just the 7-speed freewheels so far. It is my understanding that the main benefits are:

When the small gear (11T?) gets worn, you can replace just it, instead of the entire sprocket set.
cassette sprocket sets are easier to swap out than a freewheel.
Freehub has both an inner and outer bearing, less flex applied to the sidpelate when the chain is pulling on the outermost gear.
If the frame is wide enough, cassettes can be found with 8/9/10/11 sprockets.
Freehub bearings are replaceable. You don't have to throw the whole thing away if one bearing is shot.
If you want a custom gear-set, cassette gears can be individually chosen.
If you want a 3-sp derailleur using 1/8 inch chain, cassette can do it (with width mods to the derailleur)

7-sp freewheels are cheaper, but...for a high mileage rider, the entire freewheel unit is pretty much a disposable part.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike 1500w motor

Post by mchlpeel » Jun 24 2015 5:35am

crossbreak wrote:Neptronix ordered the 731 rpm one and got ~632 rpm no load @ 48 V
Ok somebody correct me here.

If the standard wind is 731RPM which works out to actually be 632 RPM or 16*4 (Neptronix motor) then the unloaded top speed would be somewhere in the region of 49MPH

I worked out 49MPH here by entering 26 inch wheel and adjusted speed to get correct RPM
http://www.csgnetwork.com/tirerevforcecalc.html

Neptronix reported that he got a max speed of 38mph in 100% mode.
neptronix wrote:I hit 38Mph on a slight -0.25% grade in 100% mode, and 44mph up that ~0.25% grade in 120% mode.
The 2 speeds are wildly different even when you consider a 10% drop from unloaded to loaded speed

or have i missed something?
Last edited by mchlpeel on Jun 24 2015 4:08pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by Kodin » Jun 24 2015 2:11pm

teklektik wrote:
Kodin wrote: First issue I've found: cassette bearings are Z or ZZ style covers. Inner is a 6902ZZ, outer is a 6901Z. (yes one Z. Meaning only a cover on one side of the bearing. Due to the nature of bikes and Oregon's ever-present moisture content, I've already ordered 2RS-style (rubber contact seal on both sides) bearings to replace both bearings.
It's a little difficult to make out the details, but like the other side cover, this looks like it will take an oil seal which would make this a pretty nice design.
If it's sized right:
  • Instead of replacing the Z/ZZ bearings with RS, I would pop a seal in there and keep the low drag Z bearings. Fill the inner void between the bearings half full of grease before slipping in the shaft - same structure, same procedure as auto wheel bearings. Heat/rotation will lube the bearings from the grease cavity. Debur and grease the shaft threads before inserting through the seal to avoid snags/tearing.
I run ZZ bearings with external seals in my BMCs. Nice.
leaf1500OutboardCassetteBearing.jpg
Sorry, comments are above each picture, not below. A seal can be placed in the brake rotor side just fine. Not sure on this side. Honestly however, if I put a rubber gasket or RTV in the side cover cutout where the freehub bolts, two 2RS bearings should keep the motor sealed enough I can oil-cool without issue.

If anyone wants to see full-res pictures, they are still on the original gallery link:
(Reposted for convenience)
http://zoom-pan-tilt.smugmug.com/Projec ... m/n-9qr7V3
YAG - (Yet Another Genesis) - LeafBike 1500W 5t, Sabvoton SSC048150

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by teklektik » Jun 24 2015 4:58pm

Kodin wrote: Sorry, comments are above each picture, not below.
:?: You were talking about the cassette - I blew up a cassette shot trying to clarify the seal recess question - where your comments are in the post makes no difference...
Kodin wrote:A seal can be placed in the brake rotor side just fine. Not sure on this side. Honestly however, if I put a rubber gasket or RTV in the side cover cutout where the freehub bolts, two 2RS bearings should keep the motor sealed enough I can oil-cool without issue.
The remark was not about oil cooling - it was about avoiding changing the bearings by popping in an inexpensive stock double-lipped oil seal and keeping the delivered product as is with the original ZZ bearings. This is NOT to seal oil - it's about getting an equivalent or better seal than by switching to RS bearings.

Can you measure the recess diameter/depth and shaft size with a caliper so we can scope out the seal situation?
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike 1500w motor

Post by neptronix » Jun 24 2015 6:50pm

mchlpeel wrote:I worked out 49MPH here by entering 26 inch wheel and adjusted speed to get correct RPM
http://www.csgnetwork.com/tirerevforcecalc.html

Neptronix reported that he got a max speed of 38mph in 100% mode.
neptronix wrote:I hit 38Mph on a slight -0.25% grade in 100% mode, and 44mph up that ~0.25% grade in 120% mode.
The 2 speeds are wildly different even when you consider a 10% drop from unloaded to loaded speed

or have i missed something?
If you watched my video and read earlier posts, you'd have seen that i measured about 650rpm at 49v.
So, the standard wind was probably measured at a different voltage than i'm running.

Loaded speed usually drops to 80% of the unloaded speed.

I'm not getting as good of a speed as i could get on 120% mode because my battery is sagging. It's an aged 10C pack..
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

"The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is now."- Chinese Proverb

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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike 1500w motor

Post by teklektik » Jun 24 2015 7:53pm

mchlpeel wrote:...or have i missed something?
Yep.
Regardless of what the advertisement says, the dyno data in the first post of this thread shows that 731rpm is the unloaded speed for the 1000W motor while the 1500W motor turns 602rpm.

The mph-to-rpm correspondence and load line analysis of the 1500W motor with a 26" wheel is shown in the re-plotted dyno data on page 5 of the thread. This shows the loaded speed, etc. which corresponds almost exactly with nep's reports. There's no need to rely on generalized derating estimates of 10% or 20% for a loaded speed when the plot shows calculated values...
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Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

Post by mchlpeel » Jun 24 2015 11:58pm

Great,

Thanks for clearing that up.

That has helped with a decision a bout which winding to get

I'm gonna go for the 16x4 winding

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