Triple solid slot Zero 75-7

Electric Motors and Controllers
User avatar
Alan B   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7492
Joined: Sep 11 2010 7:43am
Location: San Francisco Bay Area, USA
Contact:

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by Alan B » Jun 07 2015 9:21pm

Lebowski wrote:
Nuts&Volts wrote:
Lebowski wrote:Each of your 6 controllers needs to know there are 5 others driving the same stator teeth, else your FOC won't be correct.
The sevcon controllers have a master/slave setup that allows them to parallel up. I've seen two on one motor, but pretty no one has done 6 before.
Is this only to share throttle information or does each controller how many others there are and what relative phase they have (whether they are on the same teeth or whether some are 30 degree offset ?) ?
I would expect in a master-slave setup that one controller would do the FOC calcs and the others would synch the waveforms to the master, But that's a guess. Sharing throttle would not be enough.

User avatar
Doctorbass   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7425
Joined: Apr 08 2007 2:24am
Location: Quebec, Canada East
Contact:

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by Doctorbass » Jun 07 2015 11:52pm

Omg guys that is exciting !!!
I am havent read E-S since a week due to my trip to Taiwan for my work.

What a big surprize! Definitivly subscribed !!!

A sexto 75-7 :shock:

I guess it will me more efficient due to the reduction of the number of winding end from 12 to only 2 ends

Will you keep it sin/cos or change to UVW ?

If sin cos i guess it will be more difficult to perfectly match all 6 rotor angles and get perfect matched sinwave?

The chime of the harmonic sound will also change alot due that 6x longer rotor and lower resonant frequency axial mode... i am curious about the result!

Keep up the good work!!

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

User avatar
izeman   10 GW

10 GW
Posts: 4790
Joined: Jun 21 2011 8:25am
Location: vienna, austria
Contact:

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by izeman » Jun 08 2015 2:51am

Doctorbass wrote:What a big surprize! Definitivly subscribed !!!
lol. same here. and i just subscribed because i want to follow this amazing project and maybe learn something. not that i ever would think about electric motors pulling over a 1000A and giving hundreds of kW. :)

User avatar
MitchJi   1 GW

1 GW
Posts: 3092
Joined: Jun 02 2008 8:09pm
Location: Marin County California

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by MitchJi » Jun 08 2015 11:45am

Hi,

Is this useful?:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 30&t=56786
Walk-thru w/Pictures - Hand-building a Spark EV Motor

GM builds its own oil-cooled permanent-magnet electric motor for this Spark at a plant in Baltimore, a motor it promises will appear in another, as yet unnamed, product in the pipeline. Take note: One day it could be remembered as the small-block of the electric segment.

Instant Electric Torque, and Lots of It
It spins out 105 kW (140 horsepower) and a strong 400 lb-ft of torque. That latter figure, especially, makes us think it's past time the Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) weighed in with a standard for reliable comparisons, but once you drive it, there's no question this motor's got muscle. Car and Driver estimates the Spark EV can reach 60 mph in fewer than eight seconds

In essence, the stator is a tube consisting of electrical steel and copper. The steel portion has a high silicon and iron content and consists of many thin plates called laminations. Slots in the laminations are first lined with insulating sleeves made of paper and then filled with approximately 20 pounds of copper. Instead of using round-section wires, GM’s design for the Spark’s motor fills the stator slots with rectangular-section copper bars. (The roughly 3-by-4-mm bars have a higher surface-to-volume ratio than round wire, which optimizes both their electrical and cooling characteristics.)....

GM uses a two-lever press to form the copper bars to the desired shape. After loading a straight chunk of varnish-coated copper bar stock into the die jaws, I gave the first handle a hefty swing followed by a pull of the second lever. Upon returning those handles to their original positions, the finished product—what looks like a hairpin for Andre the Giant—is ready for further processing.
Image

The next step is carefully loading 120 of those hairpins into the correct stator slots. There are eight types of pins and they fit closely together, so care is needed to get the location and sequence perfect. After the pins are started, they’re shoved home—seated all the way inside the stator—in a hydraulic press exerting more than 1000 pounds of force to overcome the friction between the copper bars and the paper insulators.
Image
Best Wishes!

Mitch
>


The best quality batteries and lowest priced batteries for DIY EV's are tier 1 OEM Quality Cells from salvaged (wrecked) EV packs. Three examples are Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf and Tesla Model 3 packs.

Nissan Leaf Module specs are here
Chevy Volt Pack Info - Salvage 16kwh Packs Under $2k here

User avatar
granolaboy   100 W

100 W
Posts: 273
Joined: Nov 09 2011 5:02pm
Location: Skidegate, BC, Canada

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by granolaboy » Jun 08 2015 12:27pm

Image
2010 EVT 168 @ 69v

User avatar
h0tr0d   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 460
Joined: Apr 28 2012 5:17pm

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by h0tr0d » Jun 15 2015 9:52am

Farfle wrote:It seems I am mistaken. Excellent.
Punching it into emetor with a different motor. I get
10mm Length 6t stator: .117. mH
60mm Length 1t stator: .0116 mH
I think the formula is:

inductance initial * (Turns final / Turns initial)^2 * (Stator Final / Stator initial) = inductance final
.117 * 1/6^2 * 6 = .117/6

Which give .0195 mH (emotor is probably more precise, magnetic fields, end turns, etc.)


Next year we'll have 2x 75-7 motor per wheel (8 total), 500 hp @ wheels AND torque vectoring!!! :lol: 8) :!:
Last edited by h0tr0d on Jun 16 2015 6:06pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thank you Justin! Life is so much sweeter with this forum... ;)

User avatar
Farfle   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1754
Joined: Jun 27 2010 10:42am
Location: Redmond OR

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by Farfle » Jun 16 2015 1:26pm

Heya all, quick update. Luke is letting me borrow a super baller Red Pitaya LCR meter, so I am going to test wind a motor with some normal 14g wire with a few different test winding schemes. and get a rough ballpark of what the inductance will be.
Test Review Revise Repeat

User avatar
h0tr0d   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 460
Joined: Apr 28 2012 5:17pm

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by h0tr0d » Jun 16 2015 1:55pm

don't forget to put the rotor in place to measure it properly
Thank you Justin! Life is so much sweeter with this forum... ;)

User avatar
Farfle   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1754
Joined: Jun 27 2010 10:42am
Location: Redmond OR

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by Farfle » Jun 16 2015 1:59pm

h0tr0d wrote:don't forget to put the rotor in place to measure it properly
hmmmmm. that is very difficult The uncased laminations are very fragile, and the rotors are incredibly feisty..

Is that a linear enough relation ship that i can measure a single motor with and without rotor, get the ratio and then use that on the new motor?
Test Review Revise Repeat

User avatar
Doctorbass   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7425
Joined: Apr 08 2007 2:24am
Location: Quebec, Canada East
Contact:

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by Doctorbass » Jun 16 2015 3:22pm

Farfle wrote: The stock 75-7s are 6 turns of 24 paralell strands of 18Awg.
Farfle, Are you aware of the two different versin of the 75-7 ?

There is one for the 2013 and one for the 2012 witch i guess have less turn in the winding.

I have installed the stock "2013+" 75-7 on my S 2012 and i get alot of torque.

If the 2013+ version for the 28s battery of the 75-7 is 6 turns of 24 paralells strands of 18Awg i guess the 2012for the 18s battery have less turn.. maybe 4 turn? do you have the data of this 75-7 motor version?

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

User avatar
Farfle   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1754
Joined: Jun 27 2010 10:42am
Location: Redmond OR

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by Farfle » Jun 16 2015 5:42pm

Doctorbass wrote:
Farfle wrote: The stock 75-7s are 6 turns of 24 paralell strands of 18Awg.
Farfle, Are you aware of the two different versin of the 75-7 ?

There is one for the 2013 and one for the 2012 witch i guess have less turn in the winding.

I have installed the stock "2013+" 75-7 on my S 2012 and i get alot of torque.

If the 2013+ version for the 28s battery of the 75-7 is 6 turns of 24 paralells strands of 18Awg i guess the 2012for the 18s battery have less turn.. maybe 4 turn? do you have the data of this 75-7 motor version?

Doc
yeah, the 2012 retrofit motor is a 4 turn. It cant spin much faster though because of the sevcon's ERPM limit.
Test Review Revise Repeat

User avatar
h0tr0d   1 kW

1 kW
Posts: 460
Joined: Apr 28 2012 5:17pm

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by h0tr0d » Jun 16 2015 6:04pm

Farfle wrote:
h0tr0d wrote:don't forget to put the rotor in place to measure it properly
hmmmmm. that is very difficult The uncased laminations are very fragile, and the rotors are incredibly feisty..

Is that a linear enough relation ship that i can measure a single motor with and without rotor, get the ratio and then use that on the new motor?
I know it's difficult...

If a sevcon can handle a 4t, single stack, that's .117*(4/9)=. 052mH

Using sevcons, you'll probably have to make two triple motors...
Last edited by h0tr0d on Aug 14 2015 12:14pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thank you Justin! Life is so much sweeter with this forum... ;)

User avatar
Arlo1   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 8176
Joined: Apr 26 2009 10:36pm
Location: Nanaimo
Contact:

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by Arlo1 » Jun 17 2015 9:30am

Thanks for sharing this farfel. I think I found a reason to make a trip down :)
My Leaf motor controller build. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
Support me on Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/user/posts?u=6842045
http://www.undergroundelectrics.ca/

User avatar
madin88   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2819
Joined: May 27 2013 2:02am
Location: Austria

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by madin88 » Jun 17 2015 12:46pm

Man that motor you are building will be a real beast. not to mention what it will do with a lightweight car :twisted:
I wish you success! will follow this awesome project with lots of curiosity^^
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

User avatar
Farfle   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1754
Joined: Jun 27 2010 10:42am
Location: Redmond OR

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by Farfle » Jul 06 2015 5:14pm

Heya all! quick update. The CAD model for the new motor is done, and it looks awesome. The winding config is 1T with both halves in series, whereas stock is 6t with both halves in paralell. The phase leads will be a machined copper buss that is roughly 125mm^2 cross section. These shaped busses will be joined with waterjet cut "end turns" that will be TIG welded, or copper bolted in place.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Test Review Revise Repeat

User avatar
liveforphysics   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14005
Joined: Oct 29 2008 1:48am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA, USA

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by liveforphysics » Jul 06 2015 5:47pm

So awesome Farfle!!!! You ROCK!!
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

User avatar
Doctorbass   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 7425
Joined: Apr 08 2007 2:24am
Location: Quebec, Canada East
Contact:

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by Doctorbass » Jul 06 2015 6:30pm

Nice work.

So all you will keep is the original rotor and heatsink stack?

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

User avatar
Farfle   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1754
Joined: Jun 27 2010 10:42am
Location: Redmond OR

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by Farfle » Jul 06 2015 6:33pm

Doctorbass wrote:Nice work.

So all you will keep is the original rotor and heatsink stack?

Doc
All that is being kept is the stator lams, and the three assembled rotors will be mostly untouched. I am unsure about the case on the motor, as I destroyed the existing aluminum cases getting the stators out. The ID is 204.9mm and a press/heat fit to the 205mm stator, as well as a couple of set screws. not too hard to duplicate.
Test Review Revise Repeat

flathill   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1266
Joined: Jul 06 2010 9:26pm

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by flathill » Jul 06 2015 6:51pm

A solidslot motor! Watch out for eddy current losses in the conductors. In most motor designs the cross section of the winding wire is small enough to neglect eddy currents. Not sure if the tooth profile needs to be different for a solidslot motor, as to "shield" the conductors. Looking at a REMY motor with a hairpin winding makes me think you are likely OK, but just throwing it out there.

http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/9077/1/Zhu_Influence.pdf

Note the 1 strand winding has 35 turns
Last edited by flathill on Jul 06 2015 7:16pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Farfle   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1754
Joined: Jun 27 2010 10:42am
Location: Redmond OR

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by Farfle » Jul 06 2015 7:11pm

flathill wrote:A solidslot motor! Watch out for eddy current losses in the conductors. In most motor designs the cross section of the winding wire is small enough to neglect eddy currents. Not sure if the tooth profile needs to be different for a solidslot motor, as to "shield" the conductors. Looking at a REMY motor with a hairpin winding makes me think you are likely OK, but just throwing it out there.

It will be an awesome and interesting learning experience to see how all the losses stack up. I have a feeling that the main dominant loss (I^2R) being reduced so drastically will make up for the other potentially increasing losses.

The stock motor has each half as 12 strands of 18awg, and the two halves paralelled for 24x18awg total. each 24x18AWG phase lead is 19.752 mm^2


If the new motor was wound with wire to match the stock amount, it would have 1/6th the turns, which would be 118.51 mm^2, but both halves are in series, so it would only be 59.26 mm^2


With the solid-slot design, SW is saying the cross section will be 124 mm^2, but that is assuming a .5mm nomex insulation wrap, and that the buss bar is a perfect fill in the slot. My machining is not perfect, so I will assume that the windings should be somewhere around 110 mm^2, which is almost double the round wire copper fill :shock: :shock: .
Test Review Revise Repeat

coleasterling   100 W

100 W
Posts: 142
Joined: Sep 21 2010 3:37am

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by coleasterling » Jul 06 2015 7:17pm

Farfle,

What's your time frame on this? I'm interested in sponsoring you with some machine work if you can wait 2-3 weeks.

-Cole

flathill   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1266
Joined: Jul 06 2010 9:26pm

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by flathill » Jul 06 2015 7:20pm

http://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/9077/1/Zhu_Influence.pdf

Note the 1 strand winding has 35 turns (2.65mm) is the thickest they try and you can see the AC losses started to rise faster and faster as the wire size goes up

Don't let this stop you but just something to think of when sizing the conductors. You may want to keep them away from the maximum leakage flux area in the slot

User avatar
Farfle   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1754
Joined: Jun 27 2010 10:42am
Location: Redmond OR

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by Farfle » Jul 06 2015 7:24pm

coleasterling wrote:Farfle,

What's your time frame on this? I'm interested in sponsoring you with some machine work if you can wait 2-3 weeks.

-Cole
That would be awesome, The timeframe is (roughly) to have it in a running car by next year, so the motor build will probably be ~5 months.
Test Review Revise Repeat

John in CR   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 13535
Joined: May 20 2008 12:58am
Location: Paradise

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by John in CR » Jul 06 2015 7:30pm

I'll have to start calling you Copper Fill Farfle . Awesome idea!

coleasterling   100 W

100 W
Posts: 142
Joined: Sep 21 2010 3:37am

Re: Sextuple Zero 75-7

Post by coleasterling » Jul 06 2015 7:57pm

PM inbound!

Post Reply