New Kelly pseudo FOC controller series

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by izeman » Mar 02 2016 9:51am

sorry. i have to revoke my earlier post. it seems that new kellys KLS CAN do variable regen. i am still using the first generation, so i was not up2date.
do you want to use var regen? i guess it would be best to post a wiring diagram of how you did it, and then we will sort out any errors.
still i'm wondering how you can set BRAKE TYPE to ZERO? this should be 1 for pot brake and 2 for hall sensor.

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Merlin   100 kW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by Merlin » Mar 02 2016 10:07am

it is set to "0" because when i set it to "2" (as it is) the e-brake is engaged and nothing runs.
no difference between "plugged in" Throttle or not.

I will post my wiring later.

this is from site 13 of the manual. Brake switch 12v is for my opinion engaging brake light, not for activate regen?!

on the Website from kelly it means:

(18) Brake analog regen mode.This regen mode doesn't need brake switch to support any more.
Only available from software version 0106.KLS controller can not support reflashing.


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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by izeman » Mar 02 2016 10:27am

no. imho you're wrong. i guess you're referring to "2, 12V only can be used for LED or Switch signals". this does NOT mean that you can use 12v to light a brake signal.
this means that the 12v cicuit is only powerful enough to light an LED, and i used as logic signal for switching information (on/off).
so you need to connect (11)=red=12v to (25)=yellow=digital brake input to engage regen. in my picture i used GREEN color for it.
if you want to use variable regen (a hall throttle or potentiometer) you need to use (2)=brown=analogue brake input and feed that with 0-5v to engage variable regen. 5v comes from (4)=purple and GND comes from (20)=black, which are the same lines used for throttle input. i marked those wires with dark blue color.
if you set "brake type" to 2 (which is correct for hall brake) please measure voltage of pin(2) and pin(25). these should both be ZERO. if not it will engage brake.
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Merlin   100 kW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by Merlin » Mar 02 2016 10:57am

Merlin wrote: on the Website from kelly it means:

(18) Brake analog regen mode.This regen mode doesn't need brake switch to support any more.
Only available from software version 0106.KLS controller can not support reflashing.

except of the brake switch, iam 99% sure i wired it as it shows.

if it works only to "push a button" and then move the analog regen throttle it would be a bit of "handling work" to enjoy variabel ebrake :P

did you read my quoted text? this sounds to me that i have not push a "brake switch" to activate (any more) regen.

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by Merlin » Mar 02 2016 12:38pm

here is my wiring:

i can see in the software monitor tps pedal + brake pedal rising if i twist the throttle(s)
riding the bike, 100% release throttle, twisting brake, nothing happens except of stopping that little noise it makes in normal use.


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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by izeman » Mar 02 2016 1:25pm

wiring looks good. but it can not work it "brake type" is set incorrectly. if set to ZERO nothing will happen i guess.
please set "brake type" to 2 and check voltage on pin(2) and pin(25).

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by riba2233 » Mar 02 2016 2:05pm

Merlin wrote:if you come from a real trq throttle it sucks alot.

if your speed range goes from 0-45kph.
rolling down a hill with 30kph.....to accelerate now, you have to turn the throttle 2/3 of its way(dead band now) to get "more throttle"
I still have to do same thing you've described even on torque throttle mode on my KEB kelly, they just don't have real torque throttle, it just helps at lower speeds.

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by madin88 » Mar 02 2016 2:06pm

the brake switch is for activating regen, and NOT for a brake light!
variable e-brake or more precisely the braking force can be enhanced with a variable signal AFTER this switch was closed.
(18) Brake analog regen mode.This regen mode doesn't need brake switch to support any more.
Only available from software version 0106.KLS controller can not support reflashing.
with newer controllers (or firmware?) it seems like regen works straight away when using the variable e-brake (without needing to close any switch before) IMO thats a big improvement. On Adaptto controllers it works similar.
riba2233 wrote:
Merlin wrote:if you come from a real trq throttle it sucks alot.

if your speed range goes from 0-45kph.
rolling down a hill with 30kph.....to accelerate now, you have to turn the throttle 2/3 of its way(dead band now) to get "more throttle"
I still have to do same thing you've described even on torque throttle mode on my KEB kelly, they just don't have real torque throttle, it just helps at lower speeds.
I was not able to notice a difference between speed and torque. As this function doesn't enable real torque control, Kelly should name it different. Now it's really confusing because you do not get what you would expect after changing that.
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Merlin   100 kW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by Merlin » Mar 02 2016 2:13pm

NA LOGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO hab ich das noch auf 2 gestellt man :mrgreen:

so it works. i found a screenshot from a russia forum. Looks like there are more then "one" Software Packages out.
if i had a newer or older i cant tell.
in this screenshot i got from fany there was some parameter missing i had in my software.
so i ignored them.

... the BRK_AD % Brk value was the key. setup to maximum 50 and reku works. (variable)
stopping power is okay. I hope there will be an updated software that allows 80 of that value.

really nice feature, time will show how nice it works in "real life". I think the best way would be a normal twist grip throttle and near that a normal thumb to engage brake.
on this fatbike she had now two thumb throttles......it works and she is happy :P

.....if kelly wakes up and build something with flux weaken and back to a real trq throttle, i would give it a try on my 60kg monster.


this little 7212s is working now with 10s Lipos and 100% Battery/Phase Current. i saw allready about 90Amps. Sweet beast for its size.
I will try a 20s run with 100% :D
7KW in a front MXUS will be funny. :mrgreen:

here are my updated settings. (I deleted the other Pics) so if others users google about it, find here how it works.

Image

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Throttles left/right

Image

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Merlin   100 kW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by Merlin » Mar 02 2016 2:19pm

riba2233 wrote:
Merlin wrote:if you come from a real trq throttle it sucks alot.

if your speed range goes from 0-45kph.
rolling down a hill with 30kph.....to accelerate now, you have to turn the throttle 2/3 of its way(dead band now) to get "more throttle"
I still have to do same thing you've described even on torque throttle mode on my KEB kelly, they just don't have real torque throttle, it just helps at lower speeds.

wow really? thats interessting. i never had one before. its just what i read from alot other users coming from xiechang to kelly (trq)
thats good to know. Looks like there are no real options when you need a small controller except of Adapptos mini-e. But i didnt start the PAS discussion here ;)

#####################



Regen works as described. Release throttle, twist your "ebrake" throttle and you can control smooth your ebrake. But it is not as strong as the big bike users know with adappto/Sabvoton.
i will play a bit with "CHANGE DIR BRK%"....maybe i can get here more braking power. (i dont care about the 5-8% of charging my Battery)

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by izeman » Mar 02 2016 2:31pm

Merlin wrote:... the BRK_AD % Brk value was the key. setup to maximum 50 and reku works. (variable)
stopping power is okay. I hope there will be an updated software that allows 80 of that value.
yes. that's the value for analogue/variable regen. for digital regen it's "BRK_SW".
the BRK_AD was not present in old firmware as this feature was introduced not before rev6 software imho.

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by Merlin » Mar 02 2016 2:52pm

RLS_TPS BRK%

thats slide Recharge for sabvoton users......throttle release and regen starts immediately

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by izeman » Mar 08 2016 8:13am

re speed vs torque throttle: i now got the bike ready and did some test riding with the controller dialed in. there still may be some tuning needed, and thing could become better, but it's rideable at the moment.

unfortunately i must agree with you merlin now that i did some riding. throttle response is far from perfect. it's not bad, but it may be too jerky when needing very fine adjustment from a stand still. the CA is set to "pass-thru" and all throttle rampage is set to 99v/s, so lowest response delay possible. interestingly it behaves better that way, than with setting "current or wattage controlled". then it behaves almost like an on/off throttle. would be interesting to change play with voltage up ramping and/or PID setting. maybe then we can make the kelly behave a bit more like a torque controlled controller.

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by larsb » Mar 14 2016 2:42pm

I received my kls7230 today, it is huge!
One must hope for some good power coming out of that box..

Simple question: how advanced is the hall auto identify?

does it do all the work finding hall order, angle and phase order just by running the test or do you need to do some trials or settings yourself first?

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by izeman » Mar 14 2016 3:05pm

larsb wrote:does it do all the work finding hall order, angle and phase order just by running the test or do you need to do some trials or settings yourself first?
it should just work. connect phase/halls in any order and it should find the correct combination.

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Merlin   100 kW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by Merlin » Mar 15 2016 6:34am

found out some weird thing....

1.

my gf's fatbike runs with 10s (42v).
Its good for 43/44kph on hoc-battery.

if i push her with my raptor up to 50kph, regenerative braking kicks in....it starts slow (maybe from 46 kph) and kicks really hard in near 50kph.
she doesnt do anything. no throttle, no braking...just roll.

any idea?


2.

climbing hills with a front motor sucks. but with a frockin speed throttle it sucks a bit more.
anyway. how can i explain....
i think anyone offroad biker know....if you go a really steep hill you have to let the throttle wide open.
if you close it, bike stops, you fall, roll back or cant start again at that point.

(now rethink this with a front motor)

problem:
it you try to touch gently the throttle to prevent the wheel spinning and losing traction, there comes the point where you lose traction and the wheel spins.
not that real problem....wheel spin as hard as you can, dig the dirt and help me climbing that hill...go for it...

BUT when the wheel starts spinning, it pumps 3 or 4 times till it holds full throttle. that ends in a wild range of shimmy / handlebar switching directions.
sure, SHE is not that experienced rider. but i tested it alot also. no way. (on that same hill i can stop with my raptor and start gently again without any problems)
first thought ca limits something. so i opened all settings. no difference...
ok, maybe the Cycle analyst do something that i dont know.....so i disconnect it, and wired the throttle direct to the controller....

no difference.....
stay on ground on street, sure you can give full throttle. bike accelerate everthing is fine.

stay on lose ground. dirt, fallen leaves, give full throttle....wheel spins to full throttle, stops half a second, starts over ....3-4-5 times.

any idea(s)? :roll:

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by FluxZoom » Apr 03 2016 7:39pm

Anyone know if these KLS controllers can utilize a 3 speed switch similar to how an infineon controller does?

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by FluxZoom » Apr 03 2016 11:07pm

Merlin wrote:1. if i push her with my raptor up to 50kph, regenerative braking kicks in....it starts slow (maybe from 46 kph) and kicks really hard in near 50kph.
she doesnt do anything. no throttle, no braking...just roll.
Took too long for me to find an answer to this question but I've seen this before personally. I am probably wrong and will probably write this wrong, but it seems that once you exceed a certain point in a motors RPM efficiency curve or something to that effect the motor will begin generating current and resist turning. It seems there is no way to stop this so far as I have found but it also seems that there isn't really a way to reject the incoming current when this happens (maybe there is for some controllers, none that I know of). Per http://kellycontroller.com/faqs.php this page on the "how does regen works?" section.

"On the other hand, the controller can't buck down motor voltage. If motor running at too high speed and motor voltage is higher than battery voltage, it will charge battery automatically."

To say this another way, the motor will act as a generator when you exceed a certain RPM for various motors (not to say this is a strict controller based limit, but likely this RPM is based on the motor and it's windings) and you'll end up with an overcharged pack if caution isn't used (physically brake the motor if high voltage cutoff is approached or hope your BMS handles it).
Merlin wrote:2.

climbing hills with a front motor sucks. but with a frockin speed throttle it sucks a bit more.
anyway. how can i explain....
i think anyone offroad biker know....if you go a really steep hill you have to let the throttle wide open.
if you close it, bike stops, you fall, roll back or cant start again at that point.

(now rethink this with a front motor)
Sounds like a stalled motor, maybe I misunderstand. Motor efficiency from a stop is basically zero, it's just a massive burst of power that is almost all converted into heat which is used to start a motor, I imagine there must be a way to change this setting, but I imagine that setting this setting high enough to start up a extremely steep hill from a stop would result in bikes flipping people onto their backs or at least often doing wheelies when on a flat. In otherwords, it's probably difficult to find a middleground for this idea that would work out ideally for all situations. I have no idea which setting actually changes this. Maybe I am really wrong about all this though, hah.
Merlin wrote:problem:
it you try to touch gently the throttle to prevent the wheel spinning and losing traction, there comes the point where you lose traction and the wheel spins.
not that real problem....wheel spin as hard as you can, dig the dirt and help me climbing that hill...go for it...

BUT when the wheel starts spinning, it pumps 3 or 4 times till it holds full throttle. that ends in a wild range of shimmy / handlebar switching directions.
sure, SHE is not that experienced rider. but i tested it alot also. no way. (on that same hill i can stop with my raptor and start gently again without any problems)
first thought ca limits something. so i opened all settings. no difference...
ok, maybe the Cycle analyst do something that i dont know.....so i disconnect it, and wired the throttle direct to the controller....

no difference.....
stay on ground on street, sure you can give full throttle. bike accelerate everthing is fine.

stay on lose ground. dirt, fallen leaves, give full throttle....wheel spins to full throttle, stops half a second, starts over ....3-4-5 times.

any idea(s)? :roll:
Could the 'speed err limit' or 'accel time' settings be the issue? I don't know what accel time means for sure, but I am guessing (truly) that it means an assumed amount of time for the motor to accelerate to a certain point over the course of 1 second, perhaps if this time was shortened or lengthened and you tried your slick path test again maybe you'd see a different result which might hint not only at what accel time means but also to a solution to this issue. Sorry for the speculation but nobody else was nipping at your question.

I am sure this part is obvious, but not a question mostly a comment. Different tires are obviously going to provide different results in traction for various situations, but some folks on this forum simply reject the idea of front wheel based hub motors because traction becomes a considerable issue due to the lack of pressure on the front portion of the bike, this becomes obviously more of an issue as you go up an incline.

Oh, and I just noticed there is a fault line that can be read, did you read this fault line when doing your test? Might be worth trying.
FluxZoom wrote:Anyone know if these KLS controllers can utilize a 3 speed switch similar to how an infineon controller does?
As I should have started with before asking here(shame on me), I sent Kelly an e-mail, the answer is no and they hold no interest in implementing such a feature. Personally I love the idea of a 3 speed switch for various reasons, I imagine it's useful for really high power applications where even fine throttle modulation doesn't work out ideally (loss of control) and for other applications where top speed is easy to set for whatever situation you happen to be in without holding any hint of risk of accidentally maxing out the throttle with a massive burst of speed/power, blah blah. To each their own I suppose.

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by redline2097 » Apr 14 2016 3:10am

I am building my kid Oset 12.5/16 mod with 10kw revolt motor. I would need these two screnarios to happen same time with bike in order my little kid to tame it:

1.) When gently turning the throttle it accelerates slow and steady
2.) When hitting the throttle full it accelerates like a beast

Will I achieve this with Kelly KLS and cycle analyst v3?

Or would there be another controller sub $300 which would give me 300 phase amps and 80 volts. Or is this my best bet:
http://kellycontroller.com/kls7240s24v- ... -1344.html

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by Merlin » Apr 14 2016 7:20am

when it acts like mine, and you want to have offroad fun, i would think over your kelly KLS decision.

i get only 0815 Answers from Kelly Support, and with 3 Parameters i cant fix the Problem. Not Recommend atm from me. :x

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by izeman » Apr 14 2016 8:16am

redline2097 wrote:1.) When gently turning the throttle it accelerates slow and steady
2.) When hitting the throttle full it accelerates like a beast
if you find a way to do this i'd be happy to know. unfortunately CA's throttle ramping is not very sophisticated. you can make it fast or slow. a steep, or a flat linear ramp, but not both at the same time.
afaik zombiess(?) throttle tamer would do what you want. if you open the throttle slowly it will add little throttle at a time, if you go WOT it will do it instantly.
maybe post that in the CA thread?

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Merlin   100 kW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by Merlin » Apr 14 2016 8:26am

when i search my ebike "warehouse" i had a throttle tamer in "stock" :D
never used as i switched to real trq controller :P

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by redline2097 » Apr 14 2016 11:09am

Merlin wrote:when i search my ebike "warehouse" i had a throttle tamer in "stock" :D
never used as i switched to real trq controller :P
Can you sell it to me? :D How it is like compared to real torque controller?

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Merlin   100 kW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by Merlin » Apr 15 2016 4:09am

can i say it public? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

this "sample" i have is ~equal or just a bit better to the oldschool lyen crap. you can "learn" to live with it, sure.
Comparing to a real trq throttle? it sucks. Its just a real SPEED throttle.

Maybe for low powered "applications" and most PAS time using it is ok.

The shiny side of this controller; for this size its a Beast. not really cheap.
But beside my personal "needs" its a good controller. Safe, Powerful with working variabel e-braking.

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by redline2097 » Apr 15 2016 11:43am

Merlin wrote:can i say it public? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

this "sample" i have is ~equal or just a bit better to the oldschool lyen crap. you can "learn" to live with it, sure.
Comparing to a real trq throttle? it sucks. Its just a real SPEED throttle.

Maybe for low powered "applications" and most PAS time using it is ok.

The shiny side of this controller; for this size its a Beast. not really cheap.
But beside my personal "needs" its a good controller. Safe, Powerful with working variabel e-braking.
Hmm what controller you are talking about, I thought you meaned throttle tamer?

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