New Kelly pseudo FOC controller series

Electric Motors and Controllers
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izeman   10 GW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by izeman » Jul 14 2016 3:42pm

i wanted to say that i don't know what your controller is rated for. how many amps phase is it rated for?

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by onephatz » Jul 15 2016 12:03pm

maximum motor current is 400amps for 10 seconds
the 913 is supposed to be rated to 420amps for 60 seconds so the controller is slightly undersized for the motor.

http://kellycontroller.com/kls7250d24v- ... -1337.html

DaDo.Bzz   100 W

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by DaDo.Bzz » Nov 14 2016 7:58pm

Hello guys.

Thinking about this controller. Still no real torque throttle?

Still not sure about phase currents and you know, math needs to match. ;))

If I have continuos 50A phase current, and voltage is 60V. I suppose we dont have there some voltage amplifier.

If 50A effective, 60/sqrt(2) is effective voltage of sine signal, cos(phi) of small motor lets assume 0.8
Then Electrical P = 3 x 50 x 60/sqrt(2) x 0.8 = 5091W

So Continous DC current is 84.85A , if we have 100% efficent controller, kelly declare 99%. (i doubt)

I am right with calculation? is the phase current in effective current?

Does Kelly have BT connection allready? Not with some dongles.

Thanks
LMX 81, 16S6P 60A
BBS02 on Cannondale Rz 120
BBSHD on CTM Scroll, XTR Di2, 700Wh 52V
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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by charlesmcnall » Nov 15 2016 2:29pm

No real torque throttle, there is some ability to adjust the speed throttle curve but not much.
I have been getting used to it though.
I have been able to draw 400+ battery amps with my 600A controller but it is NOT instant.
no burnouts, no wheelies, firmware crippled ramp rates even though the controller allows you to put settings in that should be faster.
I am not sure of the phase amps but i'll shove my clamp meter on there and see what it peaks at.
There is bluetooth with a cheap dongle you plug in.

Overall I would say it is a good plug and play controller.
But I am already looking into getting a much more powerful one for better acceleration.
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DaDo.Bzz   100 W

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by DaDo.Bzz » Nov 15 2016 6:03pm

Thanks.

So you dont recomend me this controller?
Do u have some brand where also current consumption pin and current throtle exist?
LMX 81, 16S6P 60A
BBS02 on Cannondale Rz 120
BBSHD on CTM Scroll, XTR Di2, 700Wh 52V
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izeman   10 GW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by izeman » Nov 16 2016 4:21am

charlesmcnall wrote:no burnouts, no wheelies, firmware crippled ramp rates even though the controller allows you to put settings in that should be faster. I am not sure of the phase amps but i'll shove my clamp meter on there and see what it peaks at.
i tested phase amps with a clamp ac current meter, and can confirm that those are correct. if the controller is rate for 200A, and you set max phase amps to 50% you will see 100A max phase. you're right with a very smooth power application which may be too sluggish for some (me included). on the other hand some welcome it, if the throttle is not too snappy and not controllable. with the kelly it's very easy to touch a stone, fallen tree etc with your front wheel, and apply just as much throttle to smoothly go over it. no bad suprises.
There is bluetooth with a cheap dongle you plug in.
you can use any $2 bluetooth dongle and program your controller on the road with any android device. very welcome to tune it.

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by markz » Jan 14 2017 9:04pm

izeman wrote:i tested the controller on my mid-drive bike. and i must say I'M SOOO HAPPY.
this controller REALLY ROCKS. it's SUPER POWERFUL, SUPER SILENT and SUPER SMOOTH! i couldn't ask for more. maybe it's too powerful for my motor, as 240A phase amps may burn the windings.
it was only a few km test ride, but it was enough to say, that this is BY FAR the best controller i ever had. after i removed the controller and connected the old kelly again i was really shocked about the motor noise. all i hear now is a very little noise that comes from the internal gears and chains. the motor itself may only contribute very little to the noise. now the bike is as it should always have been. i can ride through the forest and may be seen as a regular biker. before the bike had a very high pitched noise that was not nice.

i also noticed that the bike is as fast as NO LOAD speed. so with lifted rear wheel i get the same speed as on flat going WOT. but maybe i'm wrong. i will have to test again to verify that.

there still are some things to solve:
-) best battery/phase relation.
-) max phase current (battery current will be regulated by the CA profiles)
-) the motor doesn't stop if i release the throttle. it takes some time to come to a stand
-) going WOT on the bike stand (rear wheel lifted from the floor) makes the motor pump. so it revs up and down and up and down again. this may be some controller internal mechanism that stops current/rpm from overshooting, as it doesn't occur while riding.

and there are some paramters that i don't really understand and that are not explained in the manual. especially the last three are totally unclear.
Capture.JPG
This post makes me sold on buying a Kelly.

I like 72V so I am thinking about this beast - KLS7230S,24V-72V,300A,Sinusoidal

Can you hook up a CA to your smaller one?

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by izeman » Jan 15 2017 6:43am

markz wrote:Can you hook up a CA to your smaller one?
no reason why it should not work. you just need an external shunt, as the kelly works differently.
the CA needs to know the current (external shunt), the voltage (coming from the battery) and then you route the throttle signal through the CA. that's it. works perfectly nice with ANY controller.

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by G1050s » Feb 01 2017 5:02pm

fany wrote:
izeman wrote:i did some more testing and comparing to the old trapezoid kelly controller.

as you can see the old controller runs at a higher rpm. and is around 15-20% faster at no load speed. changing max rpm, Kp and Ki parameter, Err rpm or anything else doesn't change a bit. and i have no idea else what to do. there is just nothing that you could adjust.
Capture.JPG
As the same goes,the max speed of KLS is lower than KEB or KBS. The speed is less about 15-20% than trapezoidal controller.
I was debating whether to get one of these controllers but this made the decision for me. I definitely don't want to lose 15-20% off my top speed. That's huge for me.

I've read through this whole thread, but just wanted to confirm am I right in my understanding that the only benefit to this controller (KLS) is that your motor will be much quieter? I know noise is going to be a bigger issue for some people than others, but wow, that just seems like such a big trade off.

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by markz » Feb 01 2017 5:15pm

Yes the trapezodial waveform produces more noise then a sinewave waveform. Lots of reviews and comments about that from various ES members. My next controller will be a Kelly for sure. The price point is good for me. Otherwise if I had the money, I'd buy the Adaptto controller with all the goodies, plus Justins http://www.ebikes.ca Cycle Satiator charger.


http://kellycontroller.com/brushless-kl ... ka922kh4f6

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Merlin   100 kW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by Merlin » Feb 01 2017 6:20pm

If you don't want the silent sine wave :

DON'T BUY A KLS series controller.

Go for a older model with a torque throttle. The speed throttle sucks probably more then the square wave sound buzzing.

Plus the pumping throttle I posted about is annoying too.

I wouldn't buy a KLS again.

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by markz » Feb 01 2017 10:21pm

What would you buy Merlin?

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by madin88 » Feb 02 2017 3:27am

Merlin wrote: Go for a older model with a torque throttle. The speed throttle sucks probably more then the square wave sound buzzing.
the KBS-X trapezoidal controllers also don't feature real torque throttle.
despite that you can choose between "torque" and "speed" in the configuration program, it is always speed based throttle :roll:
no torque throttle -> no good
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izeman   10 GW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by izeman » Feb 02 2017 3:33am

but still WAYS better than any "infineon" xiechang controller.

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Merlin   100 kW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by Merlin » Feb 03 2017 5:53pm

@madin.... Really? Had no older model but I could swear crossbreak told me that they have trq throttle options.

@izeman... Yes absolutely. No one should buy Xie Chang crap if he can have near same price a Kelly.

What would I buy?
Depends on the "needs"

There's nothing outside that can beat the adaptto package. (too bad)
If you have place for a big controller... Sabvoton.
If you don't care about trq throttle kinaye and samd selling sine wave controllers.
But I think it hits the same price of a Kelly....
And I am not sure about the (safety) features of the "new sine wave" controllers.

I am still hoping that Justin build a bigger toy for us :p

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by snejky » Feb 22 2017 11:31am

Hi. Do you have any experience with torque throttle by cycle analyst v3? Speed throttle in kls is horrible thing. Is this Right solution? :-(

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by izeman » Feb 22 2017 12:16pm

You cant compare real torque throttle implemented in the controller with a current control throttle of the CA. The controller can measure the current of every phase and adjust it accordingly. The XA only sees current from battery.

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by DaDo.Bzz » Mar 05 2017 1:50pm

Guys, I have KLS7212S, I did auto hall setup. Can you help me with folowing behaviour, if you have experience.

1. Motor is not running smooth
2. On low throtle I can see some humming sound, but motor is not rotating
3. When I quick release throttle, sometimes it stop rotor quickly so whole motor moves other way
4. When I change number of poles in programming software to 10 or 12 (I have 8 pole motor) it just runs same. How come?

Regards,
LMX 81, 16S6P 60A
BBS02 on Cannondale Rz 120
BBSHD on CTM Scroll, XTR Di2, 700Wh 52V
Slovakia, Bratislava

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SplinterOz   1 kW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by SplinterOz » Mar 05 2017 3:52pm

DaDo.Bzz wrote:Guys, I have KLS7212S, I did auto hall setup. Can you help me with folowing behaviour, if you have experience.

1. Motor is not running smooth
2. On low throtle I can see some humming sound, but motor is not rotating
3. When I quick release throttle, sometimes it stop rotor quickly so whole motor moves other way
4. When I change number of poles in programming software to 10 or 12 (I have 8 pole motor) it just runs same. How come?

Regards,
The last one is easy... the number of poles just changes the RPM calculation and is not used for anything else.
The others seem like the auto-sense has not worked as well as it should. I would run the process a couple of times ensuring the motor can spin freely with no load on it and the rotor is starting in a different position each time. Test after each setup.
I don;t have the software in front of me but if you look for the kp and ki values see if they change after each auto-sense.
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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by DaDo.Bzz » Mar 05 2017 6:09pm

Hello.

During autosetup it does not even spin, just jump some positions (looks like random). It does not change kp snd ki.
Heres video with quick rlease of throtle.
https://youtu.be/1cpBOceXRdI
LMX 81, 16S6P 60A
BBS02 on Cannondale Rz 120
BBSHD on CTM Scroll, XTR Di2, 700Wh 52V
Slovakia, Bratislava

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by izeman » Mar 06 2017 3:00am

I never heard that kp and ki would ever change after auto-setup. They are user configurable. Not running smooth indicates that hall detection was not 100% correct. Just rerun several times. It works perfectly well with one type of motor and it totally sucks witg others.
It's totally normal for you motor to stop when you release the throttle. You need to disable regen completely to get rid of it.

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SplinterOz   1 kW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by SplinterOz » Mar 06 2017 3:09am

DaDo.Bzz wrote:Hello.

During autosetup it does not even spin, just jump some positions (looks like random). It does not change kp snd ki.
Heres video with quick rlease of throtle.
https://youtu.be/1cpBOceXRdI

Yes the auto setup does not spin the motor it just moves slightly to detect hall positions.
Run on etc is normally related to the kp / ki values as does pulsing of speed.

I would recommend you shoot an email to Kelly and include a link to your video.
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Emoto   1 kW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by Emoto » Mar 14 2017 8:45am

SplinterOz wrote: Yea one of the things I want to do soon is interprete the data stream from the serial out and setup a little display.
Splinter have you made any progress on that, would be nice.

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by SplinterOz » Mar 14 2017 3:46pm

Emoto wrote:
SplinterOz wrote: Yea one of the things I want to do soon is interprete the data stream from the serial out and setup a little display.
Splinter have you made any progress on that, would be nice.
Sorry no... the my world has been a bit crazy of the last 6 months. I have learnt that over the serial you need to "ask" for the data (Fany from Kelly told me that), he also recommended that I use the Can-Bus output as that continuously streams the data.
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Emoto   1 kW

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Re: New Kelly FOC controller series

Post by Emoto » Mar 15 2017 9:21am

Bugger, can you explain ''ask'' , afaik for kls you need to request '' can bus '' and pay $ :roll: , on a another tack there is one other guy who has it working over the Serial port but that involves doing your own pcb's , i want to avoid that really.

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