Adding more FETs to controller ?

vex_zg

100 W
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
178
I got Mxus 3000w v3 and 12xIRFB3077 controller.
Planning on running it from 16s6p or 16s8p 18650GA pack.

By spec, these FETs should be able to take 120A - so am I fine with 12 of them?

If not - is it possible to add 4 or 8 more identical FETs?

I see no reason not to, if they are identical - am I missing something?

Thanks
 
Haven't seen that done, might be possible for all I know. I am sure someone with more knowledge will help you out on this part.
What I have seen is some modify controllers by changing FET's to better spec, or higher voltage or what they are after. Guess it is as simple as de solder and resolder FET's .
You would need to find a way to get more current from the controller, could be that controller firmware will not allow more current even if you tweak shunt or bypass current sensor. There was a way to get more current from a sabvoton 72150 posted a few days ago. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=51485&p=991349#p990700

And the infineons put copper wires around parts of the shunt to allow more current.
 
I couldn't find anyone adding more FETs, that puzzled me a bit because it might be an easy way to get more current through the controller.

AFAIK the controller PWMs the FETs, and FETs act as a switch. PWM duty cycle is how the controller can limit the average current (but not the momentary current when the FET is on, that is always the max defined by BMS+motor winding). Adding more FETs should reduce stress by distributing current across more FETs

The potential problems I see is: FETs should be matched so that the ones switching on first don't get overloaded, and I'd need to add some 5cm of wire to drive gate signal to the new bank of FETs on the other side of the controller. Would this gate-lead incurr some problems - I don't know.

So - let me know if somebody sees this as a stupid idea.
 
Problem with adding more parallel FETs is that their gates all have to be turned on at the same time, or else they dont' properly share the turn-on load (and same for turn-off), and so their heat load isn't the same either.

Based on what experiments I did with brushed controllers I handbuilt/point-to-point wired on perfboard as experiments, I'd say that you'd probably want to use PCBs made for the number of FETs you'd meant to use. But if you wire extra FETs up by hand there may be unintended noise/etc that causes wierd operation or blown FETs. :( Might work, might not.

If you read up on the various custom-designed-controller (and power-stage) threads, you'll see the problems and solutions for some of this.

Note that you will also need to add FETs in pairs, to both top and bottom halves of each phase. So a 12FET has to become an 18FET or 24FET or 30FET or 36FET, etc.

(or you can make it 15FET by adding to only one side of the bridge but I'm not sure there's much benefit to that).
 
spinningmagnets said:
Each FET must absolutely be firmly connected to a heat-sink, that is one more issue to consider...

An aluminum bar could be added for that. But that might make for bigger enclosure with more heat dissipation.
Adding the cost of more FET's, more alu, maybe bigger enclosure etc you pretty soon find yourself being better off starting with a few more bucks put into a controller ready made with more FET's and current ability. Not to mention the added work, and no sure way but testing to know if it will work or not. Spending hours upon tweaking might just end up in smoke and burned money.
 
There is a multitude of details that need to be understood as to why you can't just keep adding more MOSFETs, but the short answer is "because physics".

The electromagnetism gods are hard to please. Your #1 issue is the layout inductance. The #2 issue is adequate gate drive.
 
zombiess said:
There is a multitude of details that need to be understood as to why you can't just keep adding more MOSFETs, but the short answer is "because physics".

The electromagnetism gods are hard to please. Your #1 issue is the layout inductance. The #2 issue is adequate gate drive.

I do have background in electrical engineering and some electrical design experience so I like to please the electrical and the magnetical gods. I'd appreciate if you could reply a bit more.

#1 layout inductance - are you referring to the overvoltage Vds occcuring because of the motor is highly inductive load and a spike is generated during switchoff? Which in particular inductance needs to be considered? There are ways to deal with MOSFET driving an inductive load.

#gate drive - I haven't checked what gate driver is used but if there is any reasonable gate driver in, it should be able to provide sufficient gate charge fast enough to at least a few more FETs. Or some other gate drive issue you see? Prolonging gate leats to another bank of MOSFETs was my concern.
 
The Vds overshoot that occurs is caused by the parasitic inductance in the layout and is independent of the load inductance. It is difficult to mitigate this in an already existing design. The type of controllers you are working with are basically toy level, but they function.

The larges issue is that that the DC bus is not overlapped which is required for high current. Details such as this become extremely important as current levels increase. The easiest way to fix problems is to design them out. Adding on additional MOSFETs is asking for issues. If you want to design your own power stage and trigger off the controller's signals using your own gate drive, that would be the best way to go about what you are suggesting.

The gate drive on most of the ebike controllers are simple totem pole designs with inadequate current supply to the gate which leads to very long transition times on/off. Adding more devices will slow this down even more (which helps turn off overshoot).

MOSFETs don't share current in a linear array very well either.

Here is an example I have from the other day showing 11 parallel TO-247 devices which were Miller Plateau matched by hand to minimize switch latency issues.
View attachment 1

As you can see, there is a large current difference between the 1st and 11th device (purple and blue traces). The ratio remains fixed even as the current varies. I think this was ~600A into a 25uH load coil. The upper traces show the Vgs and Vds. Yellow is Vgs showing the voltage transitioning from -8V to +15V. Cyan is Vds which shows about 40V of overshoot at turn off which has a Vds transition time < 300ns (i think I still have gate resistors on here for fast switching). The slower you turn off, the less pronounced the Vds overshoot is due to lower dI/dt on the freewheeling devices' body diode reverse recovery. The Vds overshoot period is equal to the reverse recovery time of the freewheeling diode. The magnitude and length of the overshoot is directly proportional to switching speed and how much parasitic layout inductance your design has.

IMG_20160516_200813.jpg
Now, in order to really understand all of this I had to invest in some specialized equipment and play around. The type of research / design work I'm doing is not possible without the right test gear. If you have access to differential probes (pretty much a must have) and rogowski coils (super nice to have, but not required), then power electronics is a very fun field. It's multi disciplinary though. I suggest learning the meanings of Maxwell's equations and the all the physics at play.

If you look at threads I've started over the years you will find I posted tons of details about the inner workings of the ebike controllers. I've also posted 2 threads on my own gate drive power stage design if you want to read up some more.
 
wow thank you for this detailed reply. I'll go through your posts to learn more before potentially pursuing this. It's been a few years since I touched Maxwell's eqs. Didn't know there was such a big discrepancy between currents of matched FETs.

one more question: what is DC bus overlap ? Something devised to mitigate lead inductance?
 
The closer the DC bus is to each other (just like twisting the wires), the lower the effect from it's stray inductance will be due to the H fields cancelling out outside of the bus. This is one of the keys to a successful design, don't produce EM. You can think of it as the current loop area. Make a big loop of wire, pass a current through it and you get an EM field (remember the right hand rule for the curl?). Now twist that same loop of wire together several times and the area (A^2) of the loop is much smaller meaning the emitted H field will be much weaker.

If you want a refresher on Maxwell or really want to dig into it. This is the page I use for reference. I've also posted previous threads with youtube links that explain it without the math.

http://maxwells-equations.com/
 
If you want to swim into the discussion about benefits/drawbacks of controller design choices...you might consider wading into the "lebowski" DIY controller discussions.
 
spinningmagnets said:
If you want to swim into the discussion about benefits/drawbacks of controller design choices...you might consider wading into the "lebowski" DIY controller discussions.

+1, you'll learn loads :mrgreen:
Start with https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=55641, you'll see that wildly adding MOSFETs might be a case of "diminishing returns"...
 
thanks to all of you for constructive pointers and facts. I'll be back after some reading up.
 
been there, done that 8)

all i can say it works with an internal magic pie 2 controller, i added another 6 fet of same spec (75pf something...) to the 6-fet-controller,
and a massive heatsink. just wired one fet parallel to each existing one and tried to keep wire lenght equal.

worked like a charm till i got a "hua tong" 1500W 72v external controller.

pix http://goldenmotor.com/SMF/index.php?topic=4903.0
 
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