"Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

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spinningmagnets
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"Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by spinningmagnets » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:27 am

My initial glance at these indicates they have all the desirable options. Thin laminations, aluminum cast stator-core (instead of thin stamped steel plate), 35mm wide stator, phase-wire cable exits motor inside the axle-nut (no hollow axle).

135mm axle-shoulders. Of course it will need torque-arms, but they can be added outside of the frame drop-outs.

The similar Leafbike 1500W motor has garnered quite a following, but they have been resistant to swap the stator support from the common steel pressed plate, into using the cast aluminum stator support. The benefit being that the aluminum spokes add thermal mass to absorb temp spikes. Real world testing has shown that this single feature can dramatically improve the motors ability to run very high temporary amp peaks.

The MXUS, Cromotor, and QS family of DD hubmotors have versions with all the desirable features, but...they have been reluctant to produce a model that has a narrower stator (35mm instead of 45-50mm).

It may not seem like much of a change, but they typically fit a single-speed freewheel (which is reasonable), and many builders appreciate the option of having a DD hubmotor that can fit several gears (I recommend the Shimano 6-speed megarange), while being lighter than the 50mm motors, but more powerful than the common 28mm motors.

https://laebike.com/products/generic-hub-1500w-bare

It remains to be seen if this is the real deal or not...

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Received bare motor July 16. So far, I've found:

135mm axle shoulders
10mm axle flats
Axle-nut uses 21mm wrench
Axle-nut is 14mm X 1.5 thread
16.8 lbs (7.62 kg) Stripped as much as possible, without rim/spokes/axle-nuts (including several feet of phase wires on the scale)
Both axle-bearings are model# 6003Z
Axle diameter inside the bearings (the thick part) 16.4mm OD

Stator tooth-face is 35mm X 13.5mm
Magnet area is 35mm X 13.5mm

51 stator-teeth
46 magnets

When the copper strands of the motor phase wires are twisted into a snug and round cross-section, the diameter is 1.85mm, so they look like 13-Ga

In the pics on the website, the part that is 40mm wide is the aluminum base of the stator support.

There are 6 wires in the hall sensor plug, the normal black/red power...plus green/blue/yellow signal...and a white mystery wire. Could be a temp sensor, I will dig further tomorrow.

There is one set of hall sensors, but the stator has slots for a second pair if you care to install them.

35mm / 99 laminations = 0.35mm per lam
100_3358.JPG
100_3358.JPG (99.17 KiB) Viewed 2570 times
I plan to test the motor shell fins on this hubmotor, so the OD where the fins will sit is a circumference of 685mm, so dividing by 3.14159, I get a diameter of 218mm, so we have a radius of 109mm

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Re: "Edge" 1500W, 35mm, DD hubmotor

Post by skeetab5780 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:17 am

I just saw this motor for the first time this morning also, it caught my eye for the flx beta. I have a 28mm steel stator so it would be a decent power increase. Too bad they dont offer it in a 26" wheel. I dont want to lace again i just finished for crying out loud.

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Re: "Edge" 1500W, 35mm, DD hubmotor

Post by cwah » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:23 am

Isn't larger stator better?
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Re: "Edge" 1500W, 35mm, DD hubmotor

Post by spinningmagnets » Sat Jul 09, 2016 9:52 am

Isn't larger stator better?
It all depends on what you're going to do with it.

MXUS = 45mm stator
Cromotor = 48-50mm
QS = 50mm, plus deeper stator slots, so...more copper mass than Cro.

If you're using the popular MXUS and its getting warm, then its the right size. If its cold all the time, then you could go to a lighter motor (which would hopefully cost a little less). If the MXUS is getting very hot, then you would be better served by a larger motor, because you are clearly converting too much of your battery watts to waste heat.

With the recent improvement of battery 18650 cell selections to the general public, higher amps can be affordably had by builders. As a result, you don't have to go to high voltage to get high performance.

Higher voltage battery packs are typically fairly large, and also fairly expensive. There is nothing wrong with building an ebike with a nominal 60V or 72V pack, however...one of the most frequently mentioned issues is being able to mount your battery pack into an available bicycle frame. I have an Electra bike with a huge central triangle space, but...it also does not have rear suspension, which is desirable for street ebikes at higher speeds, and also for off-road ebikes at any speed.

If you want to get high performance from higher amps (and lower volts), then you need motors with more copper mass. There are now a wider selection of mid drives that use 1000W-2000W. Anyone who wants to use more power than this in a mid drive will need to accept that their chains and sprockets will wear out fairly quick. That's not a horrible side effect in exchange for the benefits of a powerful mid drive, but it is a fact of life.

Somewhere around 52V X 50A = 2600W or more (on a street ebike), average hills no longer strain the motor, and having a mid drive is less of a requirement. Being able to reach 40-MPH without strain becomes a possibility.

If you hit 52V X 50A = 2600W regularly, it will get a 28mm motor pretty hot. But...a MXUS 45mm will barely be warm.

If...the Edge/Leafbike hubs are similar in price to the MXUS 3000W, what would the benefit be? The 35mm motors are a little lighter, and they can use a freewheel with more than one gear (if a builder wants that)

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Re: "Edge" 1500W, 35mm, DD hubmotor

Post by cwah » Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:42 am

benefit of a larger stator is simple:
you get more torque for the same amount of power. It is also more efficient during acceleration. I had in the past a small direct drive motor and acceleration was way lower than my bigger hub now.

so even if the motor remain cold, it has benefit to get a bigger one... just for torque. The level of torque a 45+mm magnet motor have are comparable to geared motor. So that's the main reason I don't see value to get smaller one... especially if weight isn't that different.
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Re: "Edge" 1500W, 35mm, DD hubmotor

Post by skeetab5780 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 10:51 am

I own a mxus 3000 but its laced into a moto wheel and its too heavy for my beta rear end. I use the 28mm generic hub and it get pretty hot with a lyen 12-fet alone. So a 35mm could be the happy medium for some. Also i think nep was doing tests on the leaf 35mm and it performed really well. If this is anything close to that it could be decent.

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Re: "Edge" 1500W, 35mm, DD hubmotor

Post by cwah » Sat Jul 09, 2016 11:05 am

but the mxus isn't that much heavier?
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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by Punx0r » Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:26 pm

I like how they photographed the weight without the side covers. Oops! :D

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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by skeetab5780 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 1:45 pm

it looks like that but they are both on the scale

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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by neptronix » Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:56 pm

Just beware.. the seller still hasn't measured the laminations but says that they're thin anyway. Also, the magnets are 35mm and the stator is 40mm, so you've got some copper and steel at the edge of the motor potentially wasting power. I've not seen a motor configured like this, so that's just a speculation.

If it's got the thicker 0.5mm lamination, the leafmotor 1.5kw is actually going to beat it via continuous efficiency alone ( less heat! ). If the laminations are 0.35mm, it might actually perform a bit better than the leaf.

Whoever buys this gets to be the guinea pig like i was with the leafmotor 1.5kw.
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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by skeetab5780 » Sat Jul 09, 2016 6:00 pm

Oh your right nep, the pics show a 40mm stator.. I thought it was 35mm after reading the post fast.

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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by Punx0r » Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:35 am

skeetab5780 wrote:it looks like that but they are both on the scale
Well spotted, I didn't realise they were both on the scale.

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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by skeetab5780 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:20 am

We need to get spinningmagnets to change the title to 40mm

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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by neptronix » Mon Jul 11, 2016 11:45 am

But it's got 35mm magnets so it's not a true 40mm motor.

37.5? :lol:
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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by skeetab5780 » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:13 pm

Hah oh geez this motor is starting to seem odd, is the extra overhanging stator even beneficial then?

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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by liveforphysics » Mon Jul 11, 2016 2:22 pm

skeetab5780 wrote:Hah oh geez this motor is starting to seem odd, is the extra overhanging stator even beneficial then?
A few motors I've seen used a system to mechanically push the stator offset from the magnets to change the motors kV. It's evidently not too much of an efficiency hit, as the vehicles I've seen using it were solar cars with a large budget.
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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by Vanarian » Tue Jul 12, 2016 8:01 am

Well it looks good but given price and performance, won't a midmonster with mid drive be better? It is six phase though.

Hmmm I must get away from e-bike threads it makes me want to spend and I can't afford to spare on a second project right now :lol:
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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by neptronix » Tue Jul 12, 2016 3:08 pm

Vanarian wrote:Well it looks good but given price and performance, won't a midmonster with mid drive be better? It is six phase though.
Not a really fair comparison. A fair comparison would be a leafmotor 35mm, mxus 45mm, or those thin lam 30mm 9c/mxus motors.

There are a lot of things better than a mid/high power hub motor, but hubmotors have their place, and we could argue what's the best type of drivetrain till the end of time.. :)
My first major build: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB

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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by skeetab5780 » Tue Jul 12, 2016 5:55 pm

That's like comparing a El Camino to a Mack truck

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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by Vanarian » Wed Jul 13, 2016 5:58 am

skeetab5780 wrote:That's like comparing a El Camino to a Mack truck
Wouldn't it more be like a El Camino swapped with a Mack Truck engine? :mrgreen:

I get your point though. By the way if the edge motor is three phases I can totally see a very lightweight build around it for standard frames :

2WD 48V setup with two VESCs custom. 3Kw continuous and blades fans to force the motors to stay cool. :wink:

For a cruiser Ruff Cycles had started making frames out of Alu 7070.
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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by markz » Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:35 pm

Is this a Leaf Clone?

edit: Sorry I just saw 1500W and assumed it was a Leaf clone. The Leaf has the steel stator, while this Edge motor has alum, there is no magnet over-hang.
Last edited by markz on Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by spinningmagnets » Mon Jul 18, 2016 3:14 am

bump for new info loaded into the top post.

Definitely has thick aluminum stator support, and thin 0.35 laminations. Will post pics when I get home from work...

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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by skeetab5780 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 5:33 am

Any time to get this thing running yet?

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Re: "Edge" DD hubmotor, 1500W, 35mm, Al core

Post by spinningmagnets » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:36 am

Hard to say, I'm working 12 hr shifts. Maybe a couple weeks? Good news though, I just got a Kinaye 18-FET sine-wave controller in the mail. I am halfway through the process of lacing the Edge 1500W into a 19-inch moped rim.

The battery and controller should be capable of 70A peaks...

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