Adding halls to BLDC motors

Electric Motors and Controllers
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Adding halls to BLDC motors

Post by ElectricGod » Oct 13, 2016 1:09 am

This specific post is for the Astroflight 3220 inrunner.

I have looked around at what others have done to motors that don't have halls and also I have 6 BLDC's with halls. I looked at everything and finally just decided to add halls on top of the teeth. Several of my motors have the halls embedded in the center of the face of three stator teeth. Several have them between the teeth. I've looked at what others did when they added halls and that too was either between the teeth or right in the middle of them. I'm not sure that either position matters or not. My 41F halls were too wide to fit between the teeth and I didn't want to grind slots in the faces of 3 teeth so I just temporarily super glued them to the tops of the teeth and it worked. I tested the halls with my multimeter, a motor hall tester and on two different motor controllers that use halls and the halls worked great every time.

NOTE: I later found out the correct hall placement. Count the number of teeth on the stator. If there is an even number of stator teeth, the halls go at the gaps between the stator teeth. If there is an odd number of stator teeth the halls go in the middle of the stator teeth.

Looking at these pictures, I did it wrong. The halls should be between the stator teeth since this motor has an even number of stator teeth. Otherwise this is correct.

Essentially what I did was count the teeth in the motor and then divided 360 by that number to find out how many degrees a single tooth used. Since I wanted 120 degrees between halls, I then divided 120 by the degrees a single tooth took to find out how many teeth should be between halls. In other words every 4th tooth. I arbitrarily picked a tooth that had easy access to it and then counted 4 more teeth and that's where I placed the next hall and then 4 more teeth after that for the next hall. I lightly super glued them in place on top of the teeth so that if I was wrong about placement, I could always break them loose easily to be placed elsewhere. I started to put epoxy on one of the halls and realized I should take pics. Anyway, sorry for messing it up before you could see all 3 halls clearly. Since it all works correctly, they are now epoxied in place.


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This is the motor all closed up and tested.

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I didn't know which hall went with which phase so I arbitrarily used the 3 wire colors and then started trying different hall combinations to find the correct one. Sticking the hall wires into the hall connector on the controller was an easy way to determine the correct combination. It either doesn't work at all and the motor just chugs or stutters or else the combination runs the motor. There's a combination that will run the motor, but it gets hot very quickly despite not being under load. There's the correct combination that works smoothly and the motor doesn't get hot with no load. This is that combination.

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Last edited by ElectricGod on Sep 02, 2017 4:38 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by LightningRods » Oct 24, 2016 1:44 am

I'm glad that you're taking this on. The idea of running an Astro motor with a sensor controller has been tempting me. I'll be interested to hear how this works out.
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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Oct 24, 2016 4:15 pm

LightningRods wrote:I'm glad that you're taking this on. The idea of running an Astro motor with a sensor controller has been tempting me. I'll be interested to hear how this works out.
I've run it just free standing on 2 different sensored controllers and it worked fine there. The next step is putting it on a ride and seeing how that goes. I'm building up a 50cc sized moped right now and this motor will probably go on there. This weekend I was experimenting with 18650 battery holders to see if I could effectively build 24S packs out of battery holders. It was the internal soldering that was stumping me. Well I've got that figured out now so I can proceed with building 4 12S4P packs for the moped. I also have a load of 16,000mah LIPO packs, that may be used to assist the LION packs. At 1C I'll have approximately 20 amps which is kind of wimpy IMHO. I have tons of used laptop cells and they are good for like 2C so 40 amps max and that's still pretty tepid to me. I'll get around to it soon, but I have a Kelly KLS7230 sinusoidal controller that I want to try the motor on. It is my intention to use that controller with this motor...if something else, that's better doesn't come along. ;)

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by spinningmagnets » Oct 24, 2016 6:32 pm

Some light reading for the next few weeks of your spare time:

"Adding hall sensors to outrunners" (Burtie, 16 pages)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 30&t=15686

"mounting hall sensors to R/C brushless motors" (georgeycc, 11 pages)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... =30&t=9061

"Timing Adjustment Tool" (Burtie, 18 pages)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=19054

"Optical sensors for commutation -Working" (Burtie, 4 pages)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=28966

"Adding burtie internal optical sensors to Astro 3210" (http://www.recumbents.com, one page)
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 28&t=39035

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by LightningRods » Oct 24, 2016 8:50 pm

I'm beginning to see this electric bike business as a series of rabbit holes. Take two steps and then you fall down another one and are lost for weeks to months. :shock:
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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Oct 25, 2016 3:21 am

I'm sure I have some reading to do. And it's not like I haven't been reading anyway whatever I could find.

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Correct hall placement on a BLDC motor

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 28, 2016 4:43 am

I came across some simple instructions for hall placement...

Hall placement guidelines

1. For balanced 3 phases the stator teeth must be divisible by 3.
2. Phase coils should be 120 degrees apart.
3. For even numbers of stator teeth (6, 12, 18, 24 teeth), halls are placed between the stator teeth.
4. For odd numbers of stator teeth (3, 9, 15, 21 teeth), halls are placed in the middle of the stator teeth.

I have just purchased a 12090 18kw outrunner. I intend to add halls to it following these guidelines.

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Last edited by ElectricGod on Sep 02, 2017 4:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 29, 2016 11:58 pm

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by LightningRods » Nov 30, 2016 12:04 am

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by rogervize » Dec 02, 2016 4:17 am

There are many positions for the sensors that will work.. sort of.
Without a dyno and an embedded thermo you will never know the optimum placement.
Basically remember the Hall Sensor is the trigger for firing off a pulse to the corresponding phase winding.
You need to compensate for the delay or advancement in software.
In my project I am using a separate drive shaft disc with halls fitted at the correct relative positions.
Then I fine tune the position of the disc relative to the main shaft.
I should be able to alter the timing of the drive similar to the firing advance in a ICE (internal combustion engine)

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 04, 2016 1:16 am

rogervize wrote:There are many positions for the sensors that will work.. sort of.
Without a dyno and an embedded thermo you will never know the optimum placement.
Basically remember the Hall Sensor is the trigger for firing off a pulse to the corresponding phase winding.
You need to compensate for the delay or advancement in software.
In my project I am using a separate drive shaft disc with halls fitted at the correct relative positions.
Then I fine tune the position of the disc relative to the main shaft.
I should be able to alter the timing of the drive similar to the firing advance in a ICE (internal combustion engine)
I rigged up the halls temporarily outside the motor bell. I'll probably make some kind of bracket so I can mount the halls to the outside of the motor and then I can do what you are suggesting. Also, Alien has a hall board they use in these motors. I might just buy one since it's already correct. All I have to do is mount it inside the motor.

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by Ecyclist » Dec 25, 2016 3:08 am

This is cool stuff and I learned a ton.
Thank you all for your posts,

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 27, 2016 11:42 am

I'm going to try again for a better position on the AP12090. I looked at their site and how the hall boards work they sell. They are literally 120 degrees apart as in like an equilateral triangle. I got my halls to work right next to each other, but it wasn't very reliable. If they are doing thier halls like that, there's a good reason for it.

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 10, 2017 3:32 pm

I bought a c80100 80kv motor from Alien Power. while there, they also listed their hall boards so I bought one for the 12090. No point in reinventing the wheel!

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Adding halls to an Alien Power 12090

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 16, 2017 3:55 am

I got the hall board for the 12090 about a week ago and added it to the motor today. I took the top off the bell since getting the hall board in any other way would have been much harder. While I have it opened up, I'm going to machine a key way in the shaft and drill a hole through the shaft and add a couple of more flats so that power transfer from the bell to the shaft is as solid as possible. Anyway, here's a couple of pics of the motor before and after adding the hall board. The board is hot glued down right now, but I'll zip tie it down too.

Image
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Last edited by ElectricGod on Aug 25, 2017 10:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by Ecyclist » Feb 19, 2017 10:41 pm

I read on the ES that at certain RPM, about 10%, sensored controllers switch and run as sensorless.
Is this correct?

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by amberwolf » Feb 20, 2017 3:47 am

it's not really on topic, but I'll answer:

Which controller brand and model? Only specific ones do that sort of thing.

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by Ecyclist » Feb 20, 2017 1:00 pm

Which controller brand and model? Only specific ones do that sort of thing.[/quote]

How about the one used with 3220 in this thread?

Or the BBSHD controller from Luna?
https://lunacycle.com/bafang-bbshd-1000 ... ontroller/

What I'm really after is a small but powerful inrunner that is sensored or it can be easily sensored. It looks like this thread with 32xx motor is the answer.
I finished building and I'm in the process of testing a super compact transmission, and I'm trying to find a good match for it.
Once I'm finished with testing, I will start a new thread about it.
Is something out there that is similar in size and performance to Astros but less than $200?
I'm still a rookie on this forum and I need all the help I can get.
Please feel free and direct me to the proper thread.
Thank you.
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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by tangentdave » Feb 20, 2017 1:27 pm

Is something out there that is similar in size and performance to Astros but less than $200?
You gotta pay to play. Let us know if you find a $200 94% efficient motor that can handle 10kW in 2kg, I'd be all over that.

-dave
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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by Ecyclist » Feb 20, 2017 8:45 pm

tangentdave wrote:
Is something out there that is similar in size and performance to Astros but less than $200?
You gotta pay to play. Let us know if you find a $200 94% efficient motor that can handle 10kW in 2kg, I'd be all over that.

-dave
I'm realistic and understand that high quality motor like Astro will cost $500 or more. But something that is one notch lower in performance can be had for much less, I hope. Here is a good example that could use halls and it is $170.
http://www.etotheipiplusone.net/?p=4187
I'm not sure that this motor is any good, but it might be.
Hopefully, someone came across something interesting. I'm trying to avoid buying bunch of Chinese chainsaws and lawnmowers and tearing them down.
Help please.

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by ElectricGod » Feb 22, 2017 9:16 pm

Ecyclist wrote:
tangentdave wrote:
Is something out there that is similar in size and performance to Astros but less than $200?
You gotta pay to play. Let us know if you find a $200 94% efficient motor that can handle 10kW in 2kg, I'd be all over that.

-dave
I'm realistic and understand that high quality motor like Astro will cost $500 or more. But something that is one notch lower in performance can be had for much less, I hope. Here is a good example that could use halls and it is $170.
http://www.etotheipiplusone.net/?p=4187
I'm not sure that this motor is any good, but it might be.
Hopefully, someone came across something interesting. I'm trying to avoid buying bunch of Chinese chainsaws and lawnmowers and tearing them down.
Help please.

This is off topic. the thread is about adding halls to motors. Next time start a new thread or make sure you are posting in an appropriate thread.

A good, strong motor that costs a lot less than a 3220 (assuming you want an inrunner) is the big block that LightningRods sells. Tell him I sent you his way. I own 2 of those motors. Look up my kick scooter project. I get almost 50mph on level ground out of it. The other one will go in my E-Bike XB502 conversion project. It will run at 136 volts so top speed will be a good bit more than 50mph for about the same sized EV. Anyway, Michael is a good guy, easy to work with and he makes or carries lots of parts that will help you get going.

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by jk1 » Mar 02, 2017 8:17 pm

by ElectricGod » Thu Feb 23, 2017 12:16 pm

Ecyclist wrote:
tangentdave wrote:
Is something out there that is similar in size and performance to Astros but less than $200?


You gotta pay to play. Let us know if you find a $200 94% efficient motor that can handle 10kW in 2kg, I'd be all over that.

-dave


I'm realistic and understand that high quality motor like Astro will cost $500 or more. But something that is one notch lower in performance can be had for much less, I hope. Here is a good example that could use halls and it is $170.
http://www.etotheipiplusone.net/?p=4187
I'm not sure that this motor is any good, but it might be.
Hopefully, someone came across something interesting. I'm trying to avoid buying bunch of Chinese chainsaws and lawnmowers and tearing them down.
Help please.



This is off topic. the thread is about adding halls to motors. Next time start a new thread or make sure you are posting in an appropriate thread.

A good, strong motor that costs a lot less than a 3220 (assuming you want an inrunner) is the big block that LightningRods sells. Tell him I sent you his way. I own 2 of those motors. Look up my kick scooter project. I get almost 50mph on level ground out of it. The other one will go in my E-Bike XB502 conversion project. It will run at 136 volts so top speed will be a good bit more than 50mph for about the same sized EV. Anyway, Michael is a good guy, easy to work with and he makes or carries lots of parts that will help you get going.
My kick scooter project
Ecyclist , The closest motor to an Astro 3220 is the cyclone 1680w run at 72v 5kw like AFT does, best thing is they are an IPM motor design like the 2017 ZERO motor, it was discussed in this motor comparison thread here at how close the efficiency is to an Astro , weight is also very similar 2kg vs astro 3220 1.8kg and its 100 USD for a bare motor from Cyclone and comes with hall sensors already as you wanted. The LR motors are a lot bigger heavier and less efficient as well as they are not IPM design.

:


https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=325
Re: Motor comparison spreadsheet
Postby Nathan » Mon Nov 30, 2015 7:36 pm

Not sure how to use your sheet their is so many columns :P which one shows the voltage you are running the motor at and the gear reduction ? and is their 2 voltage and speed options to compare 48v and 72v ? some of the columns are not labelled.

So on column R i can see the cyclone motor efficiency peaks at 89.95% and peak power at this efficiency is 5980w, is that running 72v ? wow thats a lot of power from such a small motor! and the efficiency is very similar to the ASTRO motors of 3210 8t has 93% efficient but at a low lower power of 1219 W and the 3220 4t has 93% efficiency but at low peak power of 2830w is that true ?

But also if you factor in the ASTRO motors have a higher 169 KV they will probably be running higher RPM and hence you would need more reduction and maybe another reduction stage which adds weight and hence the efficiency looses would be worse compared to the cyclone 122 kv. As others have said this can be 5 to 10% losses per reduction stage, so when used as a mid drive or direct to the rear wheel with one stage reduction the cyclone motor may have overall higher efficiency possible than these 2 common Astro motors if you add the gear reduction losses ?

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by LightningRods » Mar 02, 2017 9:10 pm

The Cyclone 1680w is not comparable to my small block motors and certainly not to my big block or the Astro 3220. I have had customers come to me after having burned one of these little Cyclones up running at 2000w. They run hot, make a lot of noise, and are worth just about the $100 that Cyclone charges for them. The "3000 watt" Cyclone is actually more comparable to my small block. Cyclone came out with the larger motor because they were having so many problems with the 1680. Stop and think about it. Why come out with a larger, heavier motor and advertise it as a "3000 watt" if you already have a smaller motor that will do 5000 watts?
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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by jk1 » Mar 02, 2017 9:37 pm

The Cyclone 1680w is not comparable to my small block motors and certainly not to my big block or the Astro 3220. I have had customers come to me after having burned one of these little Cyclones up running at 2000w. They run hot, make a lot of noise, and are worth just about the $100 that Cyclone charges for them. The "3000 watt" Cyclone is actually more comparable to my small block. Cyclone came out with the larger motor because they were having so many problems with the 1680. Stop and think about it. Why come out with a larger, heavier motor and advertise it as a "3000 watt" if you already have a smaller motor that will do 5000 watts?
The ops main criterion was a motor similar to an Astro in terms of weight and i guess efficiency but at a lower cost, and the closest match is the 1680w cyclone. C3000w, LR small block are all way to bulky and heavy.

Maybe in stock form they overheat when people put too much current and not enough voltage. Also noise is a function of the gear reduction and not the motor the opp didn't say what gear reduction he will use? it seems from the motor comparison sheet peak efficiency is at 72v with less current, but also if you put cooling on them like this guy Chupa did :

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 8&start=25

You can run them at 4kw continuous he says, which is as goods or better continuous ability then the astro3220( rated 3.5kw continuous), Small and big block as none of those come with active cooling.

He measured the efficiency here vs the C3000w and the 1680w was actually better most likely due to the better IPM design, so he changed back from the C3000w motor which is the same essential technology as the LR Small block and big block.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... &start=850
Chupa

The EFF% of this tuned motor like Cyc.3000w. But cyc 1650w have weigth 3kg. I wanted to change my Cyclone 1650w to new 3000w , but after compared tables I stay with my old cyclone 1650w.

For explanations - Cyclone 3000w - made in a china motor with mid quality . Cyclone 1650w made in Taiwan have good quality
The EFF with 5kw power input is a approx 70% on 63v. if you will add 6.5kw , the EFF will be approx 55%. It means that about 3 kilowatts will go to heat.

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Re: Adding halls to an Astro Flight 3220 inrunner

Post by LightningRods » Mar 02, 2017 10:13 pm

The 1680w Cyclone is in no way comparable to the Astro 3220. I don't know how people get this kind of nonsense started and get other people to agree to it. Since the 1680 is at best a 30a motor, how much voltage are you going to put to it to get 5000 watts? I come up with 166v. What was the kv again? 122? That's 20,000 rpm. And you're planning on a single stage reduction?

You can do whatever you want. I just hate to see complete bullshit circulating around on E-S. We now have 3000 watt Bafangs and 5000 watt small Cyclones. It's ridiculous. My small block is a solid 3000 watt motor and I advertise it at 1500 watts. It's 3" wide by 5" in diameter and weighs 6 lbs. It's quiet, runs cool, is simple, rugged and easy to work on. The big block is a big motor. It's also way more than a 3000 watt motor.

There are too many sketchy vendors in the business now over-promising and under-delivering. It's unfortunate that so many people believe them because that just feeds the exaggerations. Pumping too much power into a tiny motor and actually getting a return from that power are two different things. I'm calling complete bullshit on anyone who says that a Cyclone 1680 is efficient above 2000 watts. It's all done. You're just pumping watts into it for bragging rights.
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