Fliermodel ESC 22S 500A 25kW - Photos and Test Results

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mkp007   100 mW

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Fliermodel ESC 22S 500A 25kW - Photos and Test Results

Post by mkp007 » Nov 12 2016 6:28pm

'
I bought this new ESC from Fliermodel http://www.fliermodel.com/en/prc-show.asp?id=694

Mass = 1.52kg (as shown in photos below)
L x W x H: 7.8" x 4.3" x 2.0"

Many of you will likely want to reply that this thing is crap and will not withstand much power. And that might be so. However, please refrain from replying if you do not bring value to the discussion. There will be comparisons made with the testing of the 420A ESC https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=44897.
I would love to get the really smart people with EE knowledge to chime in with what this ESC could be capable of doing given the info we have on this unit and past units.

I contacted the reps at Fliermodel and have been asking them for test data. One thing they have said is this can only do 25kW max. So 90V and 500A is not going to happen. I'm hoping for 80V and 250A for an input power of 20kW. Here is the test data they provided me using a 1.4m prop (still trying to confirm the details). As you can see, their battery is unable to support the amps. I hope this is why they did not push it further as that was about where the 420A ESC died.
Volts, Amps, Power (W), Thrust (kg)
86, 36, 3096, 21
82, 59, 4838, 30
78, 90, 7020, 38

Since the rep at Fliermodel strongly discouraged anything over 22S, I asked if it is because of the Mosfets and she said yes. So, the MOSFETs are likely 100V n-type, maybe like this one http://www.futurlec.com/Datasheet/Transistor/IRF540.pdf

In the image of the MCU board you see "48mos", does that mean 48 Mosfets? The side image does seem to show about that many (8 x 6). Notice how the IC labels are all scratched off. A total of 20, 100V 330uf capacitors.

Test results will be posted once I get the prop, motor and battery pack.

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Last edited by mkp007 on Nov 16 2016 2:25am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Fliermodel ESC 22S 500A 25kW - Photos and Test Results

Post by mkp007 » Nov 12 2016 10:44pm

'
Since we have limited test data on these "high powered" ESC, I want compare everything we can with the Alien 24S 420A ESC and why it failed at 80V and 100A.

There is so much to consider:
1) Test voltage and current
2) Fet type and quantity
3) Capacitor type and quantity
4) Cooling fans, heat sinks
5) Motor kv, poles and rpm
6) ESC settings such as Timing and PWM freq
7) Size and weight
8 ) anything else I'm missing?

This picture shows the size of the Alien ESC. Not sure of the weight but my guess is about 620g (the FM-22S-500A ESC is 2x that). Bruno at Alien has made many changes to these ESC's over the years. here is a newer model http://alienpowersystem.com/shop/esc/al ... et-esc-hv/
Image

Since it claimed to be 24S compatible, the fets would need to be higher rated than the 100V fets. If you review the description Alien's site he mentions 100V caps so not sure. There was plenty of discussion in the thread about using a lower voltage in the test to prevent early avalanche as the fets get hot. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 65#p700679. I think this message was received as the test was limited to 90V (but difficult to verify by the test data).

Here are the test results:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 00#p825135

From the video, 1st run to 5520rpm. The current reading is 28A and the output power is registering 4.1kW. Clearly something is wrong as this would indicate a voltage of about 150V. The motor is a JM1 and the kv on it is unknown so can not confirm the voltage that way. http://www.jobymotors.com/public/views/pages/jm1.php

Image

2nd test and it appears to be bottoming out and then it fails. 6717RPM and 100A. Output voltage is 7.95kW which would indicate a battery voltage around 80V which seems right. Don't know if the torque reading is accurate as they have multiple set-ups depending on the motor mount being used. It's clear from the two videos that they don't have everything configured correctly in their software program.
Image


This picture shows four cooling fans and two aluminum heat sinks. It appears the fet near the back end overheated and shorted out. The prop was pushing air into to. If the fans were pushing air in as well this would be a problem. They said they wired the fans to a separate power supply and could have easily made it so the fans were pushing air in. This could cause a stagnation zone in the region in question.
Image
pics and video by liveforphysics

So it is clear that one or more fets failed. Why did they fail? Heat? ok, probably. It would have been nice to put some T/C on those edge fets. If we look at the RPM and number of poles of the motor we can calculate how much switching those fets have to do. If we assume 24 poles and 6000rpm. That would be 12 pole pairs at 100rev/s so 1,200hz switching speed. Given a RDS, can we back out the amount of energy that needs to be dissipated per fet? But first we need to know how many fets and how many are in parallel, correct?

PMW needs to be 10x the switching speed so about 12khz would do. The following source says this: "Generally, raising the switching frequency increases PWM losses, though lowering the switching frequency limits the system’s bandwidth and can raise the ripple current pulses to the points where they become destructive or shut down the BLDC motor driver". hmmm, interesting. What was the ESC set to?
ref.
https://www.monolithicpower.com/Portals ... entals.pdf

Other useful resources:
Mosfet Tutorial: http://www.microsemi.com/document-porta ... t-tutorial
Calculating Motor Driver Power Dissipation: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slva504/slva504.pdf
Power dissipation in H-Bridge Motor Driver http://cache.nxp.com/files/analog/doc/a ... AN5194.pdf
Last edited by mkp007 on Nov 13 2016 12:01pm, edited 11 times in total.
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Re: Fliermodel ESC 22S 500A 25kW - Photos and Test Results

Post by liveforphysics » Nov 12 2016 11:51pm

Looks like a significantly improved design!

Excited to see how it tests.
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Re: Fliermodel ESC 22S 500A 25kW - Photos and Test Results

Post by ecotech » Dec 11 2016 5:22am

How much did it cost you?

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Re: Fliermodel ESC 22S 500A 25kW - Photos and Test Results

Post by Hillhater » Dec 12 2016 12:57am

Its not clear, but i guess this is referin to the Alien ESC ?....
This picture shows four cooling fans and two aluminum heat sinks. It appears the fet near the back end overheated and shorted out. The prop was pushing air into to. If the fans were pushing air in as well this would be a problem. They said they wired the fans to a separate power supply and could have easily made it so the fans were pushing air in. This could cause a stagnation zone in the region in question.
But any progress / update on the Fliermodel 500a ESC ?
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Re: Fliermodel ESC 22S 500A 25kW - Photos and Test Results

Post by liveforphysics » Dec 12 2016 5:27am

It failed from a control glitch causing shoot through IMHO.

Very common in my RC ESC experience to see them lose rotor sync for just a second or so and go from room temp to blasting plasma.
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Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: Fliermodel ESC 22S 500A 25kW - Photos and Test Results

Post by mkp007 » Dec 12 2016 10:55am

ecotech wrote:How much did it cost you?
$408 on aliexpress.
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mkp007   100 mW

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Re: Fliermodel ESC 22S 500A 25kW - Photos and Test Results

Post by mkp007 » Dec 12 2016 11:08am

Hillhater wrote:But any progress / update on the Fliermodel 500a ESC ?
Not yet. It will be another month or so.
It failed from a control glitch causing shoot through IMHO.
It would be nice to know for sure. Was heating and high voltage a factor? It seemed to be at steay state and then it just popped.

Here is a great post for those who want to know about the output waveforms of these ESCs http://www.dronevibes.com/forums/thread ... esc.20466/
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Re: Fliermodel ESC 22S 500A 25kW - Photos and Test Results

Post by ropower86 » Aug 04 2017 4:50pm

mkp007 wrote:'
Since we have limited test data on these "high powered" ESC, I want compare everything we can with the Alien 24S 420A ESC and why it failed at 80V and 100A.

There is so much to consider:
1) Test voltage and current
2) Fet type and quantity
3) Capacitor type and quantity
4) Cooling fans, heat sinks
5) Motor kv, poles and rpm
6) ESC settings such as Timing and PWM freq
7) Size and weight
8 ) anything else I'm missing?

This picture shows the size of the Alien ESC. Not sure of the weight but my guess is about 620g (the FM-22S-500A ESC is 2x that). Bruno at Alien has made many changes to these ESC's over the years. here is a newer model http://alienpowersystem.com/shop/esc/al ... et-esc-hv/
Image

Since it claimed to be 24S compatible, the fets would need to be higher rated than the 100V fets. If you review the description Alien's site he mentions 100V caps so not sure. There was plenty of discussion in the thread about using a lower voltage in the test to prevent early avalanche as the fets get hot. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 65#p700679. I think this message was received as the test was limited to 90V (but difficult to verify by the test data).

Here are the test results:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 00#p825135

From the video, 1st run to 5520rpm. The current reading is 28A and the output power is registering 4.1kW. Clearly something is wrong as this would indicate a voltage of about 150V. The motor is a JM1 and the kv on it is unknown so can not confirm the voltage that way. http://www.jobymotors.com/public/views/pages/jm1.php

Image

2nd test and it appears to be bottoming out and then it fails. 6717RPM and 100A. Output voltage is 7.95kW which would indicate a battery voltage around 80V which seems right. Don't know if the torque reading is accurate as they have multiple set-ups depending on the motor mount being used. It's clear from the two videos that they don't have everything configured correctly in their software program.
Image


This picture shows four cooling fans and two aluminum heat sinks. It appears the fet near the back end overheated and shorted out. The prop was pushing air into to. If the fans were pushing air in as well this would be a problem. They said they wired the fans to a separate power supply and could have easily made it so the fans were pushing air in. This could cause a stagnation zone in the region in question.
Image
pics and video by liveforphysics

So it is clear that one or more fets failed. Why did they fail? Heat? ok, probably. It would have been nice to put some T/C on those edge fets. If we look at the RPM and number of poles of the motor we can calculate how much switching those fets have to do. If we assume 24 poles and 6000rpm. That would be 12 pole pairs at 100rev/s so 1,200hz switching speed. Given a RDS, can we back out the amount of energy that needs to be dissipated per fet? But first we need to know how many fets and how many are in parallel, correct?

PMW needs to be 10x the switching speed so about 12khz would do. The following source says this: "Generally, raising the switching frequency increases PWM losses, though lowering the switching frequency limits the system’s bandwidth and can raise the ripple current pulses to the points where they become destructive or shut down the BLDC motor driver". hmmm, interesting. What was the ESC set to?
ref.
https://www.monolithicpower.com/Portals ... entals.pdf

Other useful resources:
Mosfet Tutorial: http://www.microsemi.com/document-porta ... t-tutorial
Calculating Motor Driver Power Dissipation: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slva504/slva504.pdf
Power dissipation in H-Bridge Motor Driver http://cache.nxp.com/files/analog/doc/a ... AN5194.pdf

So how did everything turned out at the end?

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Re: Fliermodel ESC 22S 500A 25kW - Photos and Test Results

Post by hat_tr1ck » May 07 2019 8:01pm

Did you end up testing the Flier ESC? Curious on what FETs they are using.

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