KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Electric Motors and Controllers
casainho   100 MW

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Feb 21 2018 7:15pm

I already took the shunt oscilloscope screenshots: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... hunt).html

But yes, the yellow line is the voltage on shunt and amplified by the opamp:
Image

For now, I will stick with the information from ST: AN2267 - Implementation of current regulator for BLDC motor control with ST7FMC.pdf and I will consider that I read battery and motor currents.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Feb 21 2018 7:30pm

So yes, both regen motor and battery currents should be controlled. Motor regen current depends more on hardware so it probably is the same value as motor current. Battery and battery regen currents are different, because batteries charge at lower rates.

Here is a VESC configuration tool showing all this: http://www.electric-skateboard.builders ... -force/353

Image
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Feb 21 2018 7:53pm

casainho wrote:
Feb 21 2018 7:30pm
Motor regen current depends more on hardware so it probably is the same value as motor current. Battery and battery regen currents are different, because batteries charge at lower rates.

Here is a VESC configuration tool
My smaller "big" bike can take 50A battery regen current if overvoltage limited... just saying

VESC config looks good, would love to have same with kunteng :) and I hope the way you are implementing will do the job for this summer.

Edit: absolute max value seems unnecesary, the one set should be absolute max.
Last edited by honya96 on Feb 21 2018 8:14pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Feb 21 2018 8:11pm

honya96 wrote:
Feb 21 2018 7:53pm
My smaller "big" bike can take 50A battery regen current if overvoltage limited... just saying

VESC config looks good, would love to have same with kunteng :) and I hope the way you are implementing will do the job for this summer.
At slow loop 10Hz, using PI controller, only motor phase current is being controlled for the value defined by the rider, using for instance, the throttle.

The max values limits are controlled every PWM cycle. I think is easy to understand my implementation, because it seems "quick and dirty". And as you can see, controlling battery overvoltage is done:

Code: Select all

  /****************************************************************************/
  // PWM duty_cycle controller:
  // - limit battery overvoltage
  // - limit battery max current
  // - limit motor max current
  // - limit battery max regen current
  // - limit motor max regen current
  // - ramp up/down PWM duty_cycle value

  if ((UI8_ADC_BATTERY_CURRENT > ui8_adc_target_battery_current_max) || // battery max current, reduce duty_cycle
      (ui8_adc_motor_current > ui8_adc_target_motor_current_max)) // motor max current, reduce duty_cycle
  {
    if (ui8_duty_cycle > 0)
    {
      ui8_duty_cycle--;
    }
  }
  // verify if there is regen current > 0 (if there is happening regen) and
  // if battery voltage is over or equal to absolute battery max voltage, and if so
  // reduce regen current -- the idea is to avoid overcharge the battery
  else if (((ui8_adc_motor_current < ui8_adc_motor_current_offset) &&
      (UI8_ADC_BATTERY_VOLTAGE >= ((uint8_t) ADC_BATTERY_VOLTAGE_MAX))) ||
      // verify battery max regen current limit
      (ui8_adc_battery_current < ui8_adc_target_battery_regen_current_max) ||
      // verify motor max regen current limit
      (ui8_adc_motor_current < ui8_adc_target_motor_regen_current_max))

  {
    if (ui8_duty_cycle < 255)
    {
      ui8_duty_cycle++;
    }
  }
  else // nothing to limit, so, adjust duty_cycle to duty_cycle_target, including ramping
  {
    if (ui8_duty_cycle_target > ui8_duty_cycle)
    {
      if (ui16_counter_duty_cycle_ramp_up++ >= ui16_duty_cycle_ramp_up_inverse_step)
      {
	ui16_counter_duty_cycle_ramp_up = 0;
	ui8_duty_cycle++;
      }
    }
    else if (ui8_duty_cycle_target < ui8_duty_cycle)
    {
      if (ui16_counter_duty_cycle_ramp_down++ >= ui16_duty_cycle_ramp_down_inverse_step)
      {
	ui16_counter_duty_cycle_ramp_down = 0;
	ui8_duty_cycle--;
      }
    }
  }
  /****************************************************************************/
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Feb 21 2018 8:26pm

casainho wrote:
Feb 21 2018 8:11pm
honya96 wrote:
Feb 21 2018 7:53pm
My smaller "big" bike can take 50A battery regen current if overvoltage limited... just saying

VESC config looks good, would love to have same with kunteng :) and I hope the way you are implementing will do the job for this summer.
At slow loop 10Hz, using PI controller, only motor phase current is being controlled for the value defined by the rider, using for instance, the throttle.

The max values limits are controlled every PWM cycle. I think is easy to understand my implementation, because it seems "quick and dirty". And as you can see, controlling battery overvoltage is done
Consider adding under voltage also if its not done yet. So we dont get cut, but reduced power. :wink:

I hope I can test soon, expect real next level compared to last I tested (atleast for my application)

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Feb 21 2018 8:30pm

Forgot to say that battery undervoltage is done on slow loop: it just stops the motor and signals that state to LCD.

Don't know if is logic to have battery limits in different places and done at very different frequencies. Anyway, for now it is done like that and works for me.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by stancecoke » Feb 22 2018 4:03am

casainho wrote:
Feb 21 2018 7:15pm
I will consider that I read battery and motor currents.
"motor current" is a much better wording than "phase current" :-) But I don't know, if it helps to avoid burning FETs, as we still don't know the phase current.... (except Phase B, where we have the additional ACS711/712 sensor).

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stancecoke

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by geofft » Feb 22 2018 4:49am

Geoft has probably tested more than me so he can tell and say what Amp setting he used vs stock
I don't think I can help too much with this, current limiting isn't something I've needed to pay much attention to. I'm guessing that with my (relatively low powered) motor the current limit is more controlled by the saturation point of the motor windings than any firmware control.

I set the firmware limit to 20amps but never see the actual draw above about 17a so I'm presuming this is the motor maxed out. I'm happy to help with this though, if there's anything you want me to try just say..... :)
BBS02 V2 48v 750w, 12s lipo.
Q128H (36v 201rpm), KT36/48SVPR 20amp, LCD3, 48v 12s lipo.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Feb 22 2018 10:11am

The code is now on master. I tested with some real rides and works well. Only one thing: on a geared motor, external speed sensor is a must other way motor blocked detection will fail.

Fast loop/PWM cycle limits:
// - limit battery overvoltage
// - limit battery max current
// - limit motor max current
// - limit battery max regen current
// - limit motor max regen current
// - limit motor max ERPS
Slow loop at 10Hz limits battery undervoltage.

Slow loop at 10Hz reads throttle/PAS/torque sensor and uses a PI controller to control battery current and wheel speed (P3 = 0). With P3 = 1, wheel speed is not controlled, only battery current. For this control, battery current and wheel speed are scaled based on LCD assist level value.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by racingame » Feb 22 2018 11:25am

Does this work also with mid-drive motors like the Bafang BBSHD? I'd like to buy the S12S for a 48V battery pack.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Feb 22 2018 11:35am

racingame wrote:
Feb 22 2018 11:25am
Does this work also with mid-drive motors like the Bafang BBSHD? I'd like to buy the S12S for a 48V battery pack.
I think Stancecoke is the only one that tested on such motors.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Feb 22 2018 11:42am

@Casainho - I suggest adding battery low voltage to fast loop also if possible, tuned well, you will apreciate that when running out of juice with batteries that have noticeable voltage sag. (Actually the better ones-I can explain) overvoltage is less neccesary to have at fast loop than lowvoltage, if we cant do both. Curious if the stm8 can handle.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Feb 22 2018 11:50am

honya96 wrote:
Feb 22 2018 11:42am
@Casainho - I suggest adding battery low voltage to fast loop also if possible, tuned well, you will apreciate that when running out of juice with batteries that have noticeable voltage sag. (Actually the better ones-I can explain) overvoltage is less neccesary to have at fast loop than lowvoltage, if we cant do both. Curious if the stm8 can handle.
I don't really understand what you mean. Please give more details, how should be impleemented, etc. You can makesome drawings.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Feb 22 2018 1:23pm

casainho wrote:
Feb 22 2018 10:11am
Fast loop/PWM cycle limits:
// - limit battery overvoltage
// - limit battery max current
// - limit motor max current
// - limit battery max regen current
// - limit motor max regen current
// - limit motor max ERPS
+limit battery undervoltage

As I understand in one pwm cycle if it senses overvoltage it lowers duty cycle - so it tries to hold max regen current set possible to maintain that voltage?

If yes, its more important to have this at undervoltage, but both is best if possible.

Is it enough explanation?

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by stancecoke » Feb 22 2018 2:14pm

casainho wrote:
Feb 22 2018 11:35am
racingame wrote:
Feb 22 2018 11:25am
Does this work also with mid-drive motors like the Bafang BBSHD? I'd like to buy the S12S for a 48V battery pack.
I think Stancecoke is the only one that tested on such motors.
The firmware works with a Shengyi 48V Middrive Motor (used in 2016 "Fischer" - E-Bikes).
The testing with a yamaha middrive is ongoing but not satisfying yet.
We have not tested a Bafang middrive so far.

regards
stancecoke

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by racingame » Feb 22 2018 5:03pm

What differences there are between displays? Dunno which one to take between S-LED890, S-LCD1, S-LCD3, S-LCD5, S-LCD6.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Feb 22 2018 5:07pm

racingame wrote:
Feb 22 2018 5:03pm
What differences there are between displays? Dunno which one to take between S-LED890, S-LCD1, S-LCD3, S-LCD5, S-LCD6. Also, is it ok if the original motor is sensorless (it has dedicated speed sensor cable)?
About the motor controller, please read which ones were tested:
https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... OLLER.html

About tested LCDs: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... MWARE.html
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Feb 22 2018 6:36pm

honya96 wrote:
Feb 22 2018 1:23pm
As I understand in one pwm cycle if it senses overvoltage it lowers duty cycle - so it tries to hold max regen current set possible to maintain that voltage?

If yes, its more important to have this at undervoltage, but both is best if possible.
Overvoltage only happens when current is "negative", flowing to battery. So it is verified if is happening regen (negative current):

Code: Select all

(ui8_adc_battery_current < ui8_adc_battery_current_offset)
And if voltage is overvoltage:

Code: Select all

(UI8_ADC_BATTERY_VOLTAGE >= ((uint8_t) ADC_BATTERY_VOLTAGE_MAX))
Hmmm, so this means that I can improve by not checking if current is negative, as it is redundant.

When overvoltage happens, duty_cycle should be increased to reduce regen current. The inverse way you are suggesting for undervoltge, we should reduce duty_cyle.

There are some catchs here:
- if we start with battery with overvoltage, motor will accelerate to max speed!! Maybe start firmware by reading battery voltage e hang with an alert, never start the motor in this case.
- when testing/develop with a lab power supply and try do regen, the motor will accelerate to max speed, as the power supply capacitors charge and the voltage increases, etc.

Now I understand what you mean and I think is a good idea: battery current flowing to motor will be reduced if user ask more that what battery can give while maintain min safe voltage!! Seems a good idea, better than actual implemented behavior. I will test it!! :-)
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Feb 22 2018 8:59pm

casainho wrote:
Feb 22 2018 6:36pm
When overvoltage happens, duty_cycle should be increased to reduce regen current. The inverse way you are suggesting for undervoltge, we should reduce duty_cyle.

There are some catchs here:
- if we start with battery with overvoltage, motor will accelerate to max speed!! Maybe start firmware by reading battery voltage e hang with an alert, never start the motor in this case.
- when testing/develop with a lab power supply and try do regen, the motor will accelerate to max speed, as the power supply capacitors charge and the voltage increases, etc.

Now I understand what you mean and I think is a good idea: battery current flowing to motor will be reduced if user ask more that what battery can give while maintain min safe voltage!! Seems a good idea, better than actual implemented behavior. I will test it!! :-)
Oh right, my fault.

I don't exactly undestand the part not quoted but dont think its necesary?

About the "catchs" you got

Edit: Now I see what you mean. That should be there for safety. But I dont know why would the motor start withou throttle input anyway.

You should set overvoltage slightly higher than your charger.

If your charger leaves battery siting with 4.16v per cell steady

Bms detects overcharge at 4.25v+ and balances at 4.18+ for most. (This varies)

Controller overcharge can be 4.2V+ (if your bms has higher or custom value, you can use overvoltage even 4.3V, then you can slightly regen even with "full battery" and it does not harm 18650's much. Believe me!

Regen will get stronger as the battery discharges

Above is actually as its done, for example Tesla regens well right off the charger. (You charge 80-90% mostly) same you can do with ebike if you want strong regen right from charger, most "better" chargers have voltage potenciometer inside.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by casainho » Feb 24 2018 6:25am

Done about protecting battery undervoltage on fast loop only. I did a ride of 40 minutes but wasn't enough to discharge enough my battery (flat lands here) so I could not test this new feature.
Here is the relevant piece of code (it is now on master branch):

Code: Select all

  /****************************************************************************/
  // PWM duty_cycle controller:
  // - limit battery overvoltage
  // - limit battery undervoltage
  // - limit battery max current
  // - limit battery max regen current
  // - limit motor max current
  // - limit motor max regen current
  // - limit motor max ERPS
  // - ramp up/down PWM duty_cycle value

  if ((UI8_ADC_BATTERY_CURRENT > ui8_adc_target_battery_current_max) || // battery max current, reduce duty_cycle
      (ui8_adc_battery_current > ui8_adc_target_motor_current_max) || // motor max current, reduce duty_cycle
      (ui16_motor_speed_erps > MOTOR_OVER_SPEED_ERPS) || // motor speed over max ERPS, reduce duty_cycle
      (UI8_ADC_BATTERY_VOLTAGE < ((uint8_t) ADC_BATTERY_VOLTAGE_MIN))) // battery voltage under min voltage, reduce duty_cycle
  {
    if (ui8_duty_cycle > 0)
    {
      ui8_duty_cycle--;
    }
  }
  // verify if there is regen current > 0 (if there is happening regen) and
  // if battery voltage is over or equal to absolute battery max voltage, and if so
  // reduce regen current -- the idea is to avoid overcharge the battery
  else if (((ui8_adc_battery_current < ui8_adc_motor_current_offset) &&
      (UI8_ADC_BATTERY_VOLTAGE >= ((uint8_t) ADC_BATTERY_VOLTAGE_MAX))) ||
      (UI8_ADC_BATTERY_CURRENT < ui8_adc_target_battery_regen_current_max) || // verify battery max regen current limit
      (ui8_adc_battery_current < ui8_adc_target_motor_regen_current_max)) // verify motor max regen current limit
  {
    if (ui8_duty_cycle < 255)
    {
      ui8_duty_cycle++;
    }
  }
Last edited by casainho on Feb 24 2018 2:38pm, edited 1 time in total.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, you can consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by stancecoke » Feb 24 2018 12:03pm

A friendly user of the "pedelecforum" sent me a logfile of the communication between the Kunteng App and the controller.
See my first findings here.

regards
stancecoke

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Feb 24 2018 3:45pm

casainho wrote:
Feb 24 2018 6:25am
Done about protecting battery undervoltage on fast loop only.
That fast? Well I have to get my controller back together and start testing too :lol:

Thank you.

Will test on bench now :)

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Feb 24 2018 4:57pm

>>> Loading file main.ihx in PROGRAM MEMORY image in computer
(API) ERROR : No such file or directory

from both java tools

HighSpeed branch flashing works.

BTW @stancecoke - variable regen at x4 should be option in tool, I tested another 6fet and it does not run

edit: well its not the problem, I tried setting cal A,B etc. but dont remember how it was done....
sometimes starts itself but no reaction to throttle

I would like to stick with main branch. moving your functions there will be great. :wink:

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by stancecoke » Feb 25 2018 6:06am

honya96 wrote:
Feb 24 2018 4:57pm
BTW @stancecoke - variable regen at x4 should be option in tool, I tested another 6fet and it does not run
You are right, with newer 6FET board revisions, you have to pull x4 to ground, as they have the external pull up too. So we should make regen switchable in the Java-tool.
Have you ever tried the "Thumb-Brake" on the road?

And yes, we should skip using different forks and concentrate on the master branch. I think we are proceeding in the right direction with the last changes, casinho made :-)

regards
stancecoke

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Re: Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Post by honya96 » Feb 25 2018 6:21am

I have not tested, I was waiting for the current limiting because direct motor was still blowing mosfets :lol: but you tested it right?

Yes, if the last changes will work we basicaly have the most advanced controller on planet :lol: ,just missing the "true" FOC. But no stock controller does the under and overvoltage that well as this implementation should be.

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