KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Electric Motors and Controllers
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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Xnyle » Jun 15 2019 12:06pm

@davideserin or whoever edited the Wiki:

Power Based Control: ?
Switches from current regulation control to power regulation (the lower voltage the more current you get for the same assist %)

Switch to 360 degree interpol: ?
Normally the controller interpolates PWM between hall sensor signals, that is 60° interpolation
This option swithes to 360° at 60 ERPS (iirc). The faster the motor is spinning the more likely 60° interpolation is going to interpolate "rough" / incorrect especially if you have high gear ratio / high speed motor. Then there are only 7 or 8 steps left within 60° and you might get noticeable rounding errors.

Idle Disables Offroad: ?
If offroad has been enabled, this disables it after one minute of inactivity /standstill.

Motor anti-jitter (@60 degree interpol): ?
Relates to what I wrote above, if there are big rounding errors the interpolation might calculate the motor is at for instance 125° and then comes the next hall signal change that says 120° normally the controller would now go back on his wavetable which you can feel as "stutter" or whatever the right word is :) With this option it just stays where it is until interpolation catches up again.

Disable 60 degree Interpolation: ?
Similar to Switch to 360 but interpolation goes to 360° right after startup.

DC Static Zero: ?
Fixes the duty cycle statically so you create a lot of current through the controllers sensor when turning the wheel by hand. You can then read you motor angle from the diagram. If you accidentally ride with this option enabled you'll probably fry some components.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Pwnlord187 » Jun 16 2019 9:15am

Awesome work!!
Hey, is there any way the BluOSec app can be switched to a landscape layout rather than portrait?
Thanks for everything

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Xnyle » Jun 16 2019 9:48am

Yes, you invest ~40+ hours to implement that ;-)

Without worsening the code quality.
Without breaking anything.
...

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Pwnlord187 » Jun 16 2019 6:44pm

Ok I will see what I can do, starting with the .apk

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by davideserin » Jun 17 2019 1:44am

Image

Here’s my first project with this firmware, my wife’s stealth school run bike with tandem hitch on for our daughter. Got it working with a Sempu on the YTW-06. Working great with the Bluetooth app, now just fine-tuning the settings!

Thanks for all the questions answered and development efforts. I will try to find time to support the project too :)


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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by naimo » Jun 17 2019 3:17am

Ok following up with my previous post viewtopic.php?f=30&t=87870&start=3550#p1473693 (tldr electric scooter, direct drive motor, 6" wheel, with a KT36/48 sine controller)

With the latest code (stancecoke master), as I already mentioned it runs out of the box, without changing the wire configuration nor playing with the motor angle.
I went for a few rides yesterday, and it's nice to see it running.

However, there are a few hiccups sometimes at startup, and it doesn't reach my max speed setpoint (25kph). I got a GPS (phone logging) max speed of ~17kph and average 12-13kph. Battery sag doesn't seem to be the limiting factor from what I see on my LCD5, perhaps the motor is just not powerful enough ?

I played a bit with diagnostic mode. On my bench (no load), when I increase throttle to max :
- erps ~ 120 which corresponds to ~ 14kph (120erps / 15 pole pairs * 0.48m circumference = 3.84m/s). 120erps is true, as confirmed with a slow-mo video on my phone
- control state is 17 (PAS too slow + throttle override) : no overspeed
- battery current (~2A <-> 339 = 319cal_b + 20) stays well below current target (= max_current ~10A)
- duty cycle caps at 255

I looks like foc doesn't find the sweet spot without load because if I disable it and play with MOTOR_ROTOR_DELTA_PHASE_ANGLE_RIGHT a bit, by lowering it to 225 instead of 246 for example, I can get higher erps (170) at lower loads (330 : ~1A) at full throttle.
I don't know if it's still true when loaded. Edit : confirmed when loaded too, I reached a higher top speed on a test ride with a fixed motor angle (foc corrections disabled)

Finally, the code doesn't behave the same with or without DIAGNOSTICS enabled : when enabled, the motor never truly stops when throttle is released, whereas it does when disabled.

Hope it helps,
Thanks for the hard work !

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by casainho » Jun 17 2019 6:21am

I wrote some notes about using reducing the ADC and PWM resolution to 8 bits on this firmware. I think I never did explain before so here it is:
buba wrote:
Jun 15 2019 6:26pm
I might as well mention another improvement that both I and my father wanted to have for a very long time. And you, thineight, have also mentioned this in your feedback.

This is the resolution of motor power for every ADC current step limited by the resolution of the ADC:
My first question: is this a real issue or desire for optimization? -- I ask this because I never felt anything that I think this can the source of an issue.

I wrote my notes about the decision I took at start of the project to use 8 bits instead of 16 bits variables when possible. I am sure that having higher resolution can be better but there are disadvantages as well and we just need to understand what matters most.

Here my notes: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-fir ... -to-8-bits

---

Development: Why reducing the ADC and PWM resolution to 8 bits
This notes were written on 2019.06.17 by Casainho.

When I started this firmware, I had already developed a lot of it on the KT motor controllers OpenSource firmware. The TSDZ2 motor controller uses the same 8 bits 16MHz microcontroller STM8S105xx and so I just reused the most part of the code. The mainly big difference is the way the "low resolution FOC" algorithm is implemented because KT motor controllers has a specific part of the hardware to do it and on TSDZ2 it was to be done on a different way.

The STM8S105xx PWM channels that are in use have 16 bits resolution but I decided to use only 8 bits. The ADC channels have the resolution of 10 bits but I decided to use only 8 bits. The main advantages of using 8 bits are:

1. Faster processing speed
This microcontroller is very limited in terms of processing speed and to handle FOC we need to do it fast as possible. Also, we would like to increase the PWM frequency to make possible the motor to rotate faster with higher voltage and for that, we need more processing speed.

If not using the 8 bits resolution, the variables would be of 16 bits and the processing time would increase to a factor like x5 -- this would mean that probably FOC could not be implemented or would be worst resulting in the motor having less torque and the battery range would be lower.

2. Low pass filter of analog signals
This motor has wires with high peak currents and PWM high frequency, meaning the electric signals should be noisy.

On the analog signals measured by the ADC, the first 2 bits of the 10 bits are being discarded and this results in a fast way that filters the noisy analog signals.

3. Reducing programming memory usage
This microcontroller has very low memory size and so we need to save it if we want to implement advanced features like FOC.

The operations with 16 bits would increase to a factor like x4 the programming memory usage comparing to the 8 bits.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by naimo » Jun 17 2019 9:36am

Looking a bit more at the foc algorithm, serial debugging showed that for my hardware (I have an acs712 current sensor), the phase current offset is closer to 128 than 127. With the initial value, the correction quickly built up and made the control less efficient.
Have you guys ever had to tweak that value ?

I added it as a define, as well as a hysteresis parameter that I reduced to 0, which seems to get the angle correction closer to optimal (for my hardware).

Code: Select all

#define PHASE_CURRENT_OFFSET 128
#define PHASE_CURRENT_HYSTERESIS 0

Code: Select all

if (ui16_ADC_iq_current >> 2 > PHASE_CURRENT_OFFSET+PHASE_CURRENT_HYSTERESIS && ui8_position_correction_value < 143) {
	ui8_position_correction_value++;
} else if (ui16_ADC_iq_current >> 2 < PHASE_CURRENT_OFFSET-PHASE_CURRENT_HYSTERESIS && ui8_position_correction_value > 111) {
	ui8_position_correction_value--;
}

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Xnyle » Jun 17 2019 10:58am

Why do you get a buildup? If hysteresis is >1 as it was b4 you would get a constant offset of 1 once correction kicks in?

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by naimo » Jun 17 2019 11:43am

Xnyle wrote:
Jun 17 2019 10:58am
Why do you get a buildup? If hysteresis is >1 as it was b4 you would get a constant offset of 1 once correction kicks in?
I might have the beginning of an answer.

Xnyle you're right that the current should only get offset by 1, but in my case the phase current scale is so squished that the angle correction needed to correct such a small offset is still large, and leads to big changes of behavior of the motor.

It led me to think that my phase current sensitivity was not adequate.
I looked at the ACS712 current sensor and my controller has the 30A version, which has a 66mV/A sensitivity. In 8bit adc steps, that's 3 per amp. This combined with the fact that I'm on an electric scooter, so perhaps less current draw than an ebike, means that the phase current is not resolved enough to do fine foc.

What variants of current sensors do you guys usually find on your controllers ?
Attachments
MVIMG_20190617_182132.jpg

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by naimo » Jun 17 2019 1:25pm

naimo wrote:
Jun 17 2019 11:43am
I looked at the ACS712 current sensor and my controller has the 30A version, which has a 66mV/A sensitivity. In 8bit adc steps, that's 3 per amp.
Or maybe I should just keep the 10bit adc for the phase current instead of keeping the division by 4 in the code.

Code: Select all

ui16_ADC_iq_current >> 2

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Xnyle » Jun 17 2019 2:40pm

I had the same behavior with the same ACS712 on a 35A 12FET when there was a solder blob connecting all 4 pins.
No idea why they did that, once I (more or less) removed it more current went through the sensor and correction worked fine.
Have you checked on the underside of your board that there is no bypass?

I don't think 128/127 is the real problem, actually mid point is 127,5.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by naimo » Jun 18 2019 2:16am

Xnyle wrote:
Jun 17 2019 2:40pm
I had the same behavior with the same ACS712 on a 35A 12FET when there was a solder blob connecting all 4 pins.
No idea why they did that, once I (more or less) removed it more current went through the sensor and correction worked fine.
Have you checked on the underside of your board that there is no bypass?
Wow you were right, there was a short between the two inputs of the current sensor. This is some fine tuning only chinese manufacturers know how to do !

I cleaned it up, back to stock and I will test again.
Attachments
shunt.jpg

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by naimo » Jun 18 2019 3:58am

Yeah, once I fixed the current sensing, I could actually see something on the scope when probing on the output. It showed me that I didn't have the wiring correct (current waveform was not a sine wave). After rearranging, I get a pretty sine wave and the motor runs much smoother/more quietly.

Now it seems that the default angle doesn't start the motor well in 6-step before switching to 60degree interpolation, but if I change it (lower it) to improve the startup, then the motor doesn't reach as high of a speed at full throttle.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by casainho » Jun 18 2019 4:07am

naimo wrote:
Jun 18 2019 3:58am
Yeah, once I fixed the current sensing, I could actually see something on the scope when probing on the output. It showed me that I didn't have the wiring correct (current waveform was not a sine wave). After rearranging, I get a pretty sine wave and the motor runs much smoother/more quietly.

Now it seems that the default angle doesn't start the motor well in 6-step before switching to 60degree interpolation, but if I change it (lower it) to improve the startup, then the motor doesn't reach as high of a speed at full throttle.
What are you looking for? Best efficiency or more speed??

With FOC you should get best efficiency possible, most possible torque per amps and so best battery range.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by naimo » Jun 18 2019 4:44am

casainho wrote:
Jun 18 2019 4:07am
What are you looking for? Best efficiency or more speed??

With FOC you should get best efficiency possible, most possible torque per amps and so best battery range.
Since we're current controlled, I think that when the motor runs the most efficient, it also runs the fastest for a given current and "load".
Getting the best battery range, at fixed current, also means going the fastest during the time it takes to discharge the battery.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by casainho » Jun 18 2019 4:47am

naimo wrote:
Jun 18 2019 4:44am
casainho wrote:
Jun 18 2019 4:07am
What are you looking for? Best efficiency or more speed??

With FOC you should get best efficiency possible, most possible torque per amps and so best battery range.
Since we're current controlled, I think that when the motor runs the most efficient, it also runs the fastest for a given current and "load".
Getting the best battery range, at fixed current, also means going the fastest during the time it takes to discharge the battery.
You can also change the parameters to have FOC working being less efficient but giving higher motor speed for the same battery voltage.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by naimo » Jun 18 2019 5:22am

casainho wrote:
Jun 18 2019 4:47am
naimo wrote:
Jun 18 2019 4:44am
Since we're current controlled, I think that when the motor runs the most efficient, it also runs the fastest for a given current and "load".
Getting the best battery range, at fixed current, also means going the fastest during the time it takes to discharge the battery.
You can also change the parameters to have FOC working being less efficient but giving higher motor speed for the same battery voltage.
mmm... I don't see how this is possible in a current limiting mode. Maybe this is possible at a fixed duty cycle ?

Anyway, to go back to the determination of the MOTOR_ROTOR_DELTA_PHASE_ANGLE_RIGHT : in your experience, is it possible that the angle giving best efficiency for interpolation+foc be causing issues for starting the motor in 6-step ?

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by casainho » Jun 18 2019 5:30am

naimo wrote:
Jun 18 2019 5:22am
casainho wrote:
Jun 18 2019 4:47am
naimo wrote:
Jun 18 2019 4:44am
Since we're current controlled, I think that when the motor runs the most efficient, it also runs the fastest for a given current and "load".
Getting the best battery range, at fixed current, also means going the fastest during the time it takes to discharge the battery.
You can also change the parameters to have FOC working being less efficient but giving higher motor speed for the same battery voltage.
mmm... I don't see how this is possible in a current limiting mode. Maybe this is possible at a fixed duty cycle ?

Anyway, to go back to the determination of the MOTOR_ROTOR_DELTA_PHASE_ANGLE_RIGHT : in your experience, is it possible that the angle giving best efficiency for interpolation+foc be causing issues for starting the motor in 6-step ?
Yes, maybe. I remember that I could never make work the 6 step before jumping to SVM and the startup is still done with SVM kind of 6 steps (this is what still is implemented on TSDZ2). I don't know how it is current KT firmware done as I am not anymore developing and using it.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by naimo » Jun 18 2019 6:57am

casainho wrote:
Jun 18 2019 5:30am
Yes, maybe. I remember that I could never make work the 6 step before jumping to SVM and the startup is still done with SVM kind of 6 steps (this is what still is implemented on TSDZ2). I don't know how it is current KT firmware done as I am not anymore developing and using it.
Ah yes that's what I meant, the code seems to be doing what you're describing, a six-step sine wave (phases are always energized).

Still, for me it seems that a "good" angle for foc doesn't start well in this SVM six-step mode.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Xnyle » Jun 18 2019 10:14am

You can change the 6step startup to trapezoid and see if that works better (wavetable already there, just one or two line change in motor.c)
This is on my backlog, but hadn't time/motivation so far.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by casainho » Jun 18 2019 10:33am

Xnyle wrote:
Jun 18 2019 10:14am
You can change the 6step startup to trapezoid and see if that works better (wavetable already there, just one or two line change in motor.c)
This is on my backlog, but hadn't time/motivation so far.
What I remember is that the way it is done, the startup is weak, motor vibrates, etc.

6 steps is way strong but the current controller did fail on the transition to SVM and I easily burn mosfets. I were able to see the current controller going out of control when I moved the wheel slightly back and forward to simulate changing between both states.

On TSDZ2 is not a big issue because the motor has an high rpm so the startup happens in very short time.
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Xnyle » Jun 18 2019 1:22pm

You know that I reworked that part? So no idea what version you're referring to.

Where I picked it up it looked up some position from the (only) svm wavetable that was influenced by hallsensor position and motor angle. And that "some position" could have been anything within a 60° range depending on motor angle.

Now there is a six step "wavetable" and a trapezoid one. six step is currently used on startup, that is what I was referring to.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by casainho » Jun 19 2019 5:15am

Xnyle wrote:
Jun 18 2019 1:22pm
You know that I reworked that part? So no idea what version you're referring to.

Where I picked it up it looked up some position from the (only) svm wavetable that was influenced by hallsensor position and motor angle. And that "some position" could have been anything within a 60° range depending on motor angle.

Now there is a six step "wavetable" and a trapezoid one. six step is currently used on startup, that is what I was referring to.
Sorry for the incorrect information I gave. I didn't know you did rework that.

Maybe I will look at this again in the future for TSDZ2 and I will borrow your code :-)
Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBike motor controllers (TSDZ2 and KT) and LCDs (KT-LCD3 and Bafang 850C color LCD).

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by naimo » Jun 19 2019 5:52am

Small update. I played around with the motor angle some more

First I limited the battery current to a low value, and looked for the angle that gave me the highest RPM at no load.
Unfortunately, when I went to actually ride it, the motor did reach a high speed on flats but seriously lacked torque, especially at low end.

Then reading a few pages back on this thread, I found this suggestion :
apple2 wrote:
Feb 14 2019 4:55am
Also to test different motor angles, what I do is disable angle correction and try starting from standstill (not at full throttle) and check how much cogging I get.. then change and try again
Did that, turned correction off and found a close-to-optimal angle as far as startup torque is concerned (standing on the scooter, while applying weight on the front wheel, and punching the throttle).
I went for a first ride without re-enabling angle correction yet (interpolation + sine wave kept enabled of course), and I must say it is riding really well (decent torque uphill, still reaches high speeds on flat). I'm now quite happy with the performance, hopefully efficiency isn't too bad.

I need to re-enable angle correction to conclude, but I'd like to be able to toggle it on and off while riding. I might use the assist levels from my LCD5 since for now I don't apply them to throttle.
Edit : I did exactly that (toggle with assist level), I know that the controller is receiving my command because turning foc on and off makes a significant difference at no load. However I couldn't feel anything significant when toggling while riding.
Last edited by naimo on Jun 19 2019 6:50am, edited 4 times in total.

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