KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW)

Electric Motors and Controllers
szkuba   10 mW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by szkuba » Mar 02 2021 11:19am

stancecoke wrote:
Feb 27 2021 3:43am


I don't know, why the ERider T9 / T13 torquesensor always dies on a Kunteng controller. One guy in the german forum wasted three sensors this way. Now he uses a Lishui Controller and everything works well :shock:

Could it be due to different pull-up voltage on PAS pin? Measured voltage at free floating PAS input on Kuteng od 5,0V while at Lishui is 3,26V ?

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by izy » Mar 02 2021 4:32pm

Im curious I have a ZWL controller but my vendor is saying its sinewave.


KTE-12S5-F is what the board says directly and its a 12 Mosfet im running a DD Hub motor and it does sound pretty silent but I dont have anything for a comparison.

anyone know if it actually is because i want to flash this firmware on it after i upgrade the mosfets

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by atkforever » Mar 02 2021 4:58pm

Can you send a picture of the board please?

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by izy » Mar 02 2021 6:23pm

atkforever wrote:
Mar 02 2021 4:58pm
Can you send a picture of the board please?
sure best I can since its all put back together and its late night brightened the images up at least
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stancecoke   100 kW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by stancecoke » Mar 03 2021 3:45am

This can‘t be a sine type,see the missing phase current sensor right from the green phase wire.

regards
stancecoke

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by izy » Mar 03 2021 7:52am

stancecoke wrote:
Mar 03 2021 3:45am
This can‘t be a sine type,see the missing phase current sensor right from the green phase wire.

regards
stancecoke
thanks is it possible to attach a current sensor or am i SoL

https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... _mods.html

I have been looking at this and its its a different layout to mine also what sensor would I be using.
the ACS isnt named in the link above for 12 mosfet only 9

I would like to avoid spending £45+ on a controller when I can get similar results with a sensor mod

regards
Izy

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stancecoke   100 kW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by stancecoke » Mar 03 2021 10:43am

izy wrote:
Mar 03 2021 7:52am
thanks is it possible to attach a current sensor or am i SoL
The footprint on the PCB looks like it could fit an ACS72981 .
You can check the dimension on your PCB. And you have to check, if there is a solder bridge somewhere that shortens the two sensing pads. This has to be removed of course.

regards
stancecoke

ACS72981.JPG
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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by izy » Mar 03 2021 12:12pm

stancecoke wrote:
Mar 03 2021 10:43am
izy wrote:
Mar 03 2021 7:52am
thanks is it possible to attach a current sensor or am i SoL
The footprint on the PCB looks like it could fit an ACS72981 .
You can check the dimension on your PCB. And you have to check, if there is a solder bridge somewhere that shortens the two sensing pads. This has to be removed of course.

regards
stancecoke
thanks finally does the current sensing and sensitivity matter much
theres multiple options
Image

also if you know any alternatives it would help due to extortionate seller prices

trying to find a site that sells it without charging an arm and leg for postage in UK seems to be a pain as digikey is only one i see with stock and they want £20 for it including postage the only toher site wants min order £20 before postage

seems lack of stock anywhere else

but if thats the case i may aswell just buy an actual controller https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001093 ... jTr1Y&mp=1

thanks again
izy

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by sdobbie » Mar 03 2021 3:36pm

I was testing a different KT controller today, a 6 fet version without phase sensor and it was working fine until it just suddenly stopped working because it is reading the battery voltage as 0 which means that the throttle won't respond anymore. I am using it with the osec app and when I turn the motor by hand, the hall sensor patterns respond and look fine so it's not like the main chip is dead.
Solder that shunt!

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by atkforever » Mar 03 2021 3:43pm

izy wrote:
Mar 03 2021 12:12pm
stancecoke wrote:
Mar 03 2021 10:43am
izy wrote:
Mar 03 2021 7:52am
thanks is it possible to attach a current sensor or am i SoL
The footprint on the PCB looks like it could fit an ACS72981 .
You can check the dimension on your PCB. And you have to check, if there is a solder bridge somewhere that shortens the two sensing pads. This has to be removed of course.

regards
stancecoke
thanks finally does the current sensing and sensitivity matter much
theres multiple options
Image

also if you know any alternatives it would help due to extortionate seller prices

trying to find a site that sells it without charging an arm and leg for postage in UK seems to be a pain as digikey is only one i see with stock and they want £20 for it including postage the only toher site wants min order £20 before postage

seems lack of stock anywhere else

but if thats the case i may aswell just buy an actual controller https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001093 ... jTr1Y&mp=1

thanks again
izy
No it doesnt matter since we are only looking for the 0
crossing. The only thing that matters is that you get 2.5V Viout when you apply 5V on Vcc for 0A mesurement, otherwise you have to modify the code.

If it helps Ive ordered an ACS758 on Aliexpress (I have a 18fet version so it's a bigger sensor), 3euros and it came in 2weeks.

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by izy » Mar 03 2021 3:58pm

atkforever wrote:
Mar 03 2021 3:43pm

No it doesnt matter since we are only looking for the 0
crossing. The only thing that matters is that you get 2.5V Viout when you apply 5V on Vcc for 0A mesurement, otherwise you have to modify the code.

If it helps Ive ordered an ACS758 on Aliexpress (I have a 18fet version so it's a bigger sensor), 3euros and it came in 2weeks.
Yeah i saw them when i initially was searching they came up that could work if its not too much wider (maybe trim it slightly?)

final question is did it work straight up attaching it or did you have to flash the firmware first?

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by atkforever » Mar 04 2021 4:02am

Yes it is surely overkill for your board, check ACS711 or ACS712, you cand find them on amazon (mounted on a board, just unsolder it) or ebay, aliexpress...
Image
Since U have 2 pads you must bridge pins 1&2 and 3&4.
izy wrote:
Mar 03 2021 3:58pm
final question is did it work straight up attaching it or did you have to flash the firmware first?
This has been already asked here, and no answer, please test for us :D

izy   1 mW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by izy » Mar 04 2021 8:05am

atkforever wrote:
Mar 04 2021 4:02am
Yes it is surely overkill for your board, check ACS711 or ACS712, you cand find them on amazon (mounted on a board, just unsolder it) or ebay, aliexpress...
Image
Since U have 2 pads you must bridge pins 1&2 and 3&4.
izy wrote:
Mar 03 2021 3:58pm
final question is did it work straight up attaching it or did you have to flash the firmware first?
This has been already asked here, and no answer, please test for us :D
yeah abit overkill same with me getting 4110 mosfets instead of 3077
at least this controllers gonna be beefed up

so you mean the pins on the sensor yeah thats what threw me off getting them originally 2 pins 1 side

also that image doesnt load luckily im awake now so fond it easy enough I saw one guy in this thread who tested it and he was getting results similar to some sine controllers.

but yeah thanks again bought a pack of 5 for £5

at least now I have will have a spare beefed acs758 and 18 4110 fets left over when they arrive

im happy with my squarewave and 1500w direct drive but now i have the ebike bug gotta tinker

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by atkforever » Mar 04 2021 8:57am

Did you buy ACS758 ? i'm pretty sure they are too big for your board.
Image

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by izy » Mar 04 2021 10:02am

atkforever wrote:
Mar 04 2021 8:57am
Did you buy ACS758 ? i'm pretty sure they are too big for your board.
Image
I bought both alie already posted the 758 and both the smaller ones today should arrive Monday.

I will use it at some point lol

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Iambuilderman » Mar 04 2021 3:05pm

izy wrote:
Mar 03 2021 3:58pm
final question is did it work straight up attaching it or did you have to flash the firmware first?

This has been already asked here, and no answer, please test for us :D
I am also in the process of upgrading a 18 fet square wave to ‘sine’ wave with custom firmware. I have just finished beefing up the traces with additional copper and lots of solder. And I have installed the 200 amp version of the acs sensor (in hindsight, I would have preferred a more sensitive lower amp one in combination with a beefy copper wire as bypass shunt).

Strange that the response after only adding the sensor has not been reported yet. I will test how the controller responds with the added current sensor before trying to switch to custom firmware, and report my findings here.

Ps: the beefing up is not finished yet; I will add some 8 awg power supply cables and a bunch of additional capacitors. Also move the resistor lm317 to the aluminium body for better cooling and peace of mind. This one will stay at 60v Max; I have also modded a more extreme version to buck converter + 100v mosfets + 100v caps + 400v snubblers + uprated cooling. That’s for another time.
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izy   1 mW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by izy » Mar 04 2021 3:36pm

Iambuilderman wrote:
Mar 04 2021 3:05pm

I am also in the process of upgrading a 18 fet square wave to ‘sine’ wave with custom firmware. I have just finished beefing up the traces with additional copper and lots of solder. And I have installed the 200 amp version of the acs sensor (in hindsight, I would have preferred a more sensitive lower amp one in combination with a beefy copper wire as bypass shunt).

Ps: the beefing up is not finished yet; I will add some 8 awg power supply cables and a bunch of additional capacitors. Also move the resistor lm317 to the aluminium body for better cooling and peace of mind. This one will stay at 60v Max; I have also modded a more extreme version to buck converter + 100v mosfets + 100v caps + 400v snubblers + uprated cooling. That’s for another time.
damn thats some beefy traces, mine came with metal on it already so i just beefed it up instead with solder.

im using a 12fet with a 48v/30a bms battery and i want to upgrade to a 52v/40a-50a bms battery so in hindsight my 100v fets are kinda overkill but i bought them more for the passive cooling bonus over the stock ones. will do my caps/snubs later the fets more important and sine. good idea about the lm317 i can use my spare wire/stlink wires (female to male) and extend it to the out the way.

my current controller is rated for 35A and 17 continuous for my 1500w kit but the sinewave controller for 1000W is rate 20A contin and 40A that and with my wiring the controller fits really nicely under my seat in the stock bag

my aim is to make it a sinewave and beef up slightly


what are you planning for uprated cooling?

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by izy » Mar 08 2021 8:46am

atkforever wrote:
Mar 04 2021 4:02am
Yes it is surely overkill for your board, check ACS711 or ACS712, you cand find them on amazon (mounted on a board, just unsolder it) or ebay, aliexpress...
Image
Since U have 2 pads you must bridge pins 1&2 and 3&4.
izy wrote:
Mar 03 2021 3:58pm
final question is did it work straight up attaching it or did you have to flash the firmware first?
This has been already asked here, and no answer, please test for us :D

small issue got the ac712 today

good size but

my solder points are 2 on left (yes can bridge legs)

3 solder points on right what do i do aboout this one

if i use the larger ones schematics this is how i should have it laid out

Image


update i removed the bridge and i soldered it like above albeit messy with some small wires.


the controller still acts like a squarewave
lets see if firmware helps

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by izy » Mar 08 2021 11:15am

right big update im in

flashed firmware I now have sinewave it definitely sounds like sinewave compared to old buzz


edit again so it turns out the sinewave model desoldered itself during the test i need a module that the right size but also fits and isnt costing an arm and leg

edit after reverting back to squarewave and flashing firmware i've noticed the sound is more noticeable now also my PAS really needs to calm down even at level 1 its really strong will try lowering it again

resoldered another sensor now and it desoldered itself
also whats with the torque and the really aggressive regen braking the regen braking so strong that it actually torques.

also my controller is showing me using 10-20w even when idle unless cycling


back on squarewave ordered a sinewave controller to save the hassle

the noise on the open firmware with interpolation off is worse than stock was which i would revert to if i knew a way too do it
at least new controller on way as a bonus i get a light wire

if anyone could helpe me configure the battery an phase current correctly it would be nice
48v 17.15ah battery with a 30A bms
1500w DD motor with 46 for P1 setting and this controller is rated for 17A continuous and 35A
Image

Also 2 things extra I noticed the motor activates at 0 Assist
and when throttling with it linked to assist and you pedal while using throttle the motor actually slowed down
dunno if this acts when not linked
but kinda means I cant pedal while at max motor rpm to squeeze on some more speed

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stancecoke   100 kW

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by stancecoke » Mar 09 2021 11:01am

izy wrote:
Mar 08 2021 11:15am
desoldered itself during the test
you can solder a shunt or a power resistor, some mOhm, in parallel to the ACS sensor, as we need only the zero crossing not the absolute value from the sensor.

regards
stancecoke

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by izy » Mar 09 2021 12:21pm

well that was fun for whatever reason whatever settings i used without sinewave reported 800w peak usage

upped battery amp to 20amps ebcause 35A controlelr and 30a bms
my batteries bms actually blew mosfets

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Vbruun » Mar 14 2021 4:13pm

szkuba wrote:
Mar 02 2021 11:19am
stancecoke wrote:
Feb 27 2021 3:43am


I don't know, why the ERider T9 / T13 torquesensor always dies on a Kunteng controller. One guy in the german forum wasted three sensors this way. Now he uses a Lishui Controller and everything works well :shock:

Could it be due to different pull-up voltage on PAS pin? Measured voltage at free floating PAS input on Kuteng od 5,0V while at Lishui is 3,26V ?
Pretty interested in this as I think my sensor is slowly failing as well. Could this pull Up voltage be changed by a simple voltage divider?

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Iambuilderman » Mar 16 2021 1:57pm

Iambuilderman wrote:
Mar 04 2021 3:05pm
izy wrote:
Mar 03 2021 3:58pm
final question is did it work straight up attaching it or did you have to flash the firmware first?

This has been already asked here, and no answer, please test for us :D
I am also in the process of upgrading a 18 fet square wave to ‘sine’ wave with custom firmware. I have just finished beefing up the traces with additional copper and lots of solder. And I have installed the 200 amp version of the acs sensor (in hindsight, I would have preferred a more sensitive lower amp one in combination with a beefy copper wire as bypass shunt).

Strange that the response after only adding the sensor has not been reported yet. I will test how the controller responds with the added current sensor before trying to switch to custom firmware, and report my findings here.

Ps: the beefing up is not finished yet; I will add some 8 awg power supply cables and a bunch of additional capacitors. Also move the resistor lm317 to the aluminium body for better cooling and peace of mind. This one will stay at 60v Max; I have also modded a more extreme version to buck converter + 100v mosfets + 100v caps + 400v snubblers + uprated cooling. That’s for another time.
In reply to my own post: I have finished building and testing the controller (actually another 18 fet square wave after that) and I can confirm:

Adding an acs phase current sensor to the square wave version does NOT automatically render it a ‘sine’ wave version. BUT: it does provide the perfect basis for installing the beautiful custom firmware, see next post with my experiences as a newbie!

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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Iambuilderman » Mar 16 2021 2:13pm

izy wrote:
Mar 04 2021 3:36pm
Iambuilderman wrote:
Mar 04 2021 3:05pm

I am also in the process of upgrading a 18 fet square wave to ‘sine’ wave with custom firmware. I have just finished beefing up the traces with additional copper and lots of solder.

[...]
damn thats some beefy traces, mine came with metal on it already so i just beefed it up instead with solder.

[...]

what are you planning for uprated cooling?
@izy
I use the blue 0.5mm thick heat transfer pads that you can find on AliExpress to improve the heat transfer from mosfets to the metal casing and still have electric insulation between mosfets and case. This stuff is quite flexible so it can be squished to a very thin layer if you tighten the nuts and use a wrench (?) to squish the top half of the mosfet backplate manually to the top of the case. If you have the controller in free air flow this keeps everything very well cooled.
Attachments
D6B24C62-C514-4F7B-B302-B025859AEC82.jpeg
0.5mm blue heat transfer material (electrical insulator)
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Re: KT motor controllers -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for BMSBattery S/Kunteng KT motor controllers (0.25kW up to 5kW

Post by Iambuilderman » Mar 16 2021 4:18pm

@casainho , @stancecoke & all other contributors to this custom firmware:

As I wrote in my previous posts, I just finished beefing up some square wave 18 fet kt controllers. As adding a current sensor did not magically turn them into sine wave controllers, I decided to take a leap of faith and installed your firmware.

And WOW!!! I am highly impressed, you have made a true piece of art! As a newbie, it was very user friendly to install. And more importantly: it works like a charm and looks very professional! Thank you very much, it really is the pie on the hardware optimizations that you can do to these controllers. It is very admirable that you are still taking the time to answer questions of other enthousiasts on this forum. It is really appreciated!!

As a newbie, of course I had to solve quite a few challenges. And I have some suggestions and questions about the Java tool and app, if those are still under active development. I feel I could help other users with the knowledge that I gained, maybe I should write some tutorials myself. Anyway, I will list the topics so anyone could ask me if they are interested.

My experiences with the Java tool:
1. very user friendly. You don’t need any programming skills to use the tools. Eclipse is not needed for a newbie; just the Java tool and the software tools that you need to install.

My experiences with the blueosec app:
1. It looks amazing and was clearly built by ebike enthousiasts!
2. You can use the graph of the correction value to determine the optimal motor specific angle (I think ;) ): run the motor at a constant speed, and change the specific angle until no correction is needed anymore. 238 is perfect
for my direct drive motor.
3. The wave table selection option is one of the greatest additions: the pure sine wave option is amazing: pure silence with ridiculous amounts of torque (once you set the phase amps you want). Pure sine wave is much more silent than the other wave forms!
4. The morse code to unleash the ‘Berserk mode’ a.k.a. Off-road mode is enough of a reason to install the custom firmware for any high powered bike user. The yellow font provides perfect feedback for having entered the correct code. If you switch off the ignition, you are immediately back to road legal. Very useful.

Suggestions for potential improvement of the bluosec app (these probably have been suggested by others before?):
1. Automatically apply the entered scaling factors for amps and volts so you can dial in the wanted limits in amps and volts directly without manual conversion into 0-255 values.
2. After applying suggestion 1: Display units in titles and descriptions
3. Automatic scaling of the graphs based on the entered limits (currently, my graphs are mostly out of sight due to high values). Alternatively, manually being able to set the maximum values for the axes would also help.
4. Show watts (or is it already there?). This is very useful variable for manual calibration of the cal a factor. For example, driving 50 km/h should take some 1000 watt without excessive wind speeds. And for comparison with other controllers or other power references as well.

Suggestions for improving the Java tool:
1. Add the WAve table option in The Java configurator as well, so that you can choose the pure sine wave for use with a display instead of the app (how can I change the code to do this manually?).

I think it is very important to mention that new users should take the time to calibrate the cal a and voltage calibration factors before accelerating their bike. The preset calibration value for voltage (67) was fine for me (selected the 48v dd preset), but the value for cal a was way off. It needed to be 21 instead of the preset 50 value. This could easily lead to blown mosfets because of way to high amps. I would advise to use an amp meter to calibrate this factor, by pressing the rear brakes while powering the motor (brake cable temporarily disconnected) and comparing the measured battery amps to the amps that the app reports. Alternatively, you can first check the voltage calibration in steady state with a multi meter, then drive 50 km/h and change cal a until amps*voltage=1000 watt (crude estimation).

I now drive my bike at a still moderate 80+ True battery amps in pure sine wave mode at a Kp value of 0.7 (set values: 95 battery amps and 310 phase amps). My 24 fet sabvoton controller does 150 battery amps and 450 phase amps out of the box with amp-wise similarly rated fets (actually higher rds), so I figure an 18 fet with great traces should be able to do 18/24*150=112,5 battery amps and 337,5 phase amps.

The only quirk that I found with the custom firmware is that if you brake quickly, the controller keeps powering the bike when you try to come to a standstill. It does not do this when you brake slowly or just let the bike roll to a stop. It seems to be connected to the pi-control? It “remembers” its previous power level and tries to stick to that.

I found that the solution is to enable a little bit of regen and to set the Max voltage high enough to enable this regen. With regen active, you can brake immediately and the scary auto-throttle does not occur anymore. So problem solved.

List of experiences I could tell about (all 18 fet controllers):

1. How to convert a 48v into 72v version
2. How to connect a buck converter to replace the lm317 + resistor
3. How to adapt common 12v buck converters to provide 15v for the mosfets and 5v converter
4. How to seriously upgrade traces
5. How to calibrate cal a

I will add some screenshots of the hard and software settings of the second square wave controller that I optimized with mods and custom firmware:
Attachments
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Before
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Before
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3E1E5239-6DCB-4205-AEC9-4B90FF13B994.jpeg (1.69 MiB) Viewed 121 times
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62E3653D-7DD8-4661-8CFB-9417CBEEB319.jpeg (4.48 MiB) Viewed 121 times
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67EC6E0D-DA0E-4AF4-9C1A-6987AD593D67.jpeg (1.84 MiB) Viewed 121 times
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604E1FC3-4A74-4DD8-8567-D3169627C0BD.jpeg (2.93 MiB) Viewed 121 times
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FB0BEBE1-34CC-40BE-8DE0-4604F94A7D28.jpeg (2.19 MiB) Viewed 121 times

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