Idiots guide to water cooled mid motor making

Electric Motors and Controllers
larsb   10 kW

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Re: Idiots guide to water cooled mid motor making

Post by larsb » Jan 18 2018 3:54pm

I am trying to wrap my head around the target kV value.

Thermal limits set what you can get out of the motor, so i assume that it's required to keep max losses the same as in the original revolt motor. I think i can take care of the copper losses if the water cooling is successful - the magnets and eddy losses are what concerns me.

Power output is proportional to the rpms so if i can increase max rpms then power is increased the same amount.
I think that the limiting factors for using higher rpms are exponentially increasing eddy losses and the possibility of motor disintegration :D

Eddy current losses are proportional to rpm squared.
(edit, source:https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... p?p=240035 )

Eddy-current losses are also approximately proportional to the square of the lamination thickness
(source: www.emetor.org/glossary/lamination-thickness/)

So.. Going from 0.5mm lamination to 0.3mm keeping same losses:

Eloss0.3=k*0.3^2*rpm0.3^2
Eloss0.5= k*0.5^2*rpm0.5^2

Same losses:
Eloss0.3=Eloss0.5

0.3^2*rpm0.3^2=0.5^2*rpm0.5^2

(Rated)Rpm0.5=3120 (guesstimation from where efficiency drops off in pic from Revolt motors below)
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rpm0.3=Sqrt(0.5^2/0.3^2*3120^2)

--> rpm0.3=5200
kV=85 is needed to get 5200rpms with my 72V system assuming loaded rpms are 85% of unloaded


The same goes for the magnet segmentation. dividing each pole into 5-7 segments will have a positive effect, should be possible to lower the losses and heating to between 25-50%.

I am also considering to make the motor 10-pole as it lowers the fundamental frequency by 40% (from 7x to 5x rpm). I found that recommended max frequency for 0.35mm lams is 400hz according to an application note for electric steels.

7pole pair is 5200/60*7=607Hz
5pole pair is 5200/60*5=433Hz

Max rpm to get 400Hz on 10poles is 4800. How the hell do the rc outrunners fit this recommendation? They don't..

I have seen some researched motors where 10 pole was slightly higher efficiency than 14 pole.

:?: I wonder what the reason is for the popularity of 12slot14pole RC motors?
I guess it might give a slightly higher torque density than 10-pole but really don't know

I hope some of you can check my logic above, it's been a while since i was in school and it sure wasn't electric machines i studied 8)
Last edited by larsb on Feb 07 2018 2:25pm, edited 3 times in total.

larsb   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 714
Joined: Dec 10 2014 5:12am
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Idiots guide to water cooled mid motor making

Post by larsb » Jan 20 2018 10:22am

I will need to do a test wind to be able to get the correct kV so the rotor is next to start thinking about.

Magnets are 5x5mm
Original rotor airgap dia is 113.65 mm, divided by 14 "poles" gives each group of 1 pole and 1 side magnet a length of 25.5mm so that's perfect with five magnets and a 0.1 mm tolerance gap between each.

The 5 magnets of each pole group will be 2x side oriented magnets and 3x north or south. I found this halbach optimization where an optimal ratio is shown to be 19/26 of the sideways to radial pole magnets so this is the best possible ratio for the 5 magnets of each pole group.
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larsb   10 kW

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Joined: Dec 10 2014 5:12am
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Re: Idiots guide to water cooled mid motor making

Post by larsb » Jan 22 2018 4:19pm

I sketched a jig to position the N&S magnets on the rotor:
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I plan to glue these magnets first. The sideways magnets will be placed after as these will be kicking and screaming to avoid their brothers 8)

10-pole halbach rotor with N-S magnets marked:
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Best ratio for sideways magnets/pole magnets is 42% (19/45) as shown in optimization graph above.
3/7 sideways magnets: 43% for 10-pole rotor
2/5 sideways magnets : 40% for 14-pole rotor

larsb   10 kW

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Joined: Dec 10 2014 5:12am
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Idiots guide to water cooled mid motor making

Post by larsb » Feb 20 2018 12:38pm

I've hurt my back so the motor design is not going anywhere for a while.. Struggling to cope just with work and family.

It's frustrating.

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Idiots guide to water cooled mid motor making

Post by madin88 » Feb 20 2018 1:30pm

Get well soon!

larsb   10 kW

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Re: Idiots guide to water cooled mid motor making

Post by larsb » Feb 24 2018 1:57pm

Thanks, slowly getting better. I am paying for old mistakes, my youth is coming back to bite me in the ass!

larsb   10 kW

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Joined: Dec 10 2014 5:12am
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Idiots guide to water cooled mid motor making

Post by larsb » Mar 16 2018 3:17pm

Now i have sort of a functioning back again. Still painful though 8) I'll go to a doc next week to see if i have damaged any of the discs in my spine.

Buuut, now i've got some energy to put into the motor and I'll have some time to build during easter holidays.

I have decided to try a 7x1mm parallel wind (even though it lowers copper fill) to keep the kV higher. It will also lower the AC losses a little.

I have some new wire coming in the mail, we'll see soon!

larsb   10 kW

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Joined: Dec 10 2014 5:12am
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Idiots guide to water cooled mid motor making

Post by larsb » Jun 04 2018 12:18am

I crashed my bike so fork and wheels were kaputt, decided to build a new ride so motor has been on hold for a while.

It turned out to be a moped conversion from a rieju drac 50cc, i'll post some pics of it later

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macribs   1 GW

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Re: Idiots guide to water cooled mid motor making

Post by macribs » Jun 04 2018 2:01am

Glad you are ok, sorry to hear about the bike.
Look forward to your next build. Plan to do a road legal build one off? I know Sweden got an easier route to getting plates one special build vehicles, you can do radical changes and still get it deemed road legal. Is it the same for motorcycles as it is for cars?

larsb   10 kW

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Joined: Dec 10 2014 5:12am
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Idiots guide to water cooled mid motor making

Post by larsb » Jun 04 2018 5:45am

As far as i know it is nearly impossible to get a moped conversion street legal in Sweden. Mopeds have a type approval that you cannot get yourself.

On the other hand to get a motorcycle custom build approved is certainly possible in the same way as for a custom car.

..but then you cannot ride on bike paths :D

larsb   10 kW

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Joined: Dec 10 2014 5:12am
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Re: Idiots guide to water cooled mid motor making

Post by larsb » Jun 09 2018 2:50pm

This is my thread for the moped conversion:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=94666
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