Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build!

Electric Motors and Controllers
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Arlo1
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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Arlo1 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:48 pm

Lmfao So dumb to make you sign a NDA for a SW file :roll:

Anyways thank you very much. How much time from where I was to this did it take you and what all (short answers) did you have to do?

I will now start trying to make the layout.

-Arlin
Attachments
1400a.jpg
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My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

Coolohm
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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Coolohm » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:42 pm

Love what you're up to man!

I've got a dozen Infineon fs400r07a1e3 IGBTs out of used TM4 inverters that I should do something with (if I can get time). Looks like they have part of the gate driver attached. First I need to figure out how to test them, then ditch the TM4 logic board and come up with something else.

Image

For CAD I very much recommend the new cloud based system called Onshape www.onshape.com
It's from a bunch of Solidworks developers who got sick of Solidworks not doing anything with cloud based systems so they started their own (and raised hundreds of millions of $$$ venture funding).

I stopped using SW and have been using onshape for 6 months and making full professional parts and drawings that we outsource to manufacturers no problem.

Because it's cloud based it would be ideal for open source projects! In-fact it's free for open source projects. Free users have all the same functionality as paid users do, but free users are not able to make documents private therefore everyone can see them - also known as "open source" :)

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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Lebowski » Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:42 am

What if a company behind a cloud CAD tool goes bust or decides to start charging ? Then all your stuff is lost or behind bars ? With FreeCAD even 15 years from now you can still startup your old computer and access your designs...

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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Coolohm » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:23 am

Lebowski wrote:What if a company behind a cloud CAD tool goes bust or decides to start charging ? Then all your stuff is lost or behind bars ? With FreeCAD even 15 years from now you can still startup your old computer and access your designs...
It's possible but with this particular company unlikely IMO. They have an open API that you can use to automate pulling backups and then run from your browser. I'm willing to bet they will be around longer than photobucket and image shack hosted photos :lol:

I'd be happy to help with any CAD stuff for these cool projects.

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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by coleasterling » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:23 pm

Arlo1 wrote:Lmfao So dumb to make you sign a NDA for a SW file :roll:

Anyways thank you very much. How much time from where I was to this did it take you and what all (short answers) did you have to do?

I will now start trying to make the layout.

-Arlin
It took a bit to figure out how to handle the workflow, but went okay from there. Prolly about 45 min total. You might verify dimensions against your parts. I had to infer some of them and some were different than your sketches. They should all be easy to change if something is amiss.

Basically just verified your sketches were close, then started making sub-sketches with individual pieces of the model I wanted to extrude. I started with the base aluminum plate and built up from there.

Happy to help!

-Cole

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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Arlo1 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:14 am

Ok So here is my thoughts on how I want to lay it out. I will be working on options with solid works and by hand to get an Idea how it will go together.


It will be to use 36 of these MKP1848620704P CAPs which my math shows should be OK... But with the localized layout it should help the caps share the load better then a conventional layout.
Attachments
IMG_20170925_111945924_HDR.jpg
IMG_20170925_111945924_HDR.jpg (91.91 KiB) Viewed 380 times
IMG_20170925_111722377_HDR.jpg
IMG_20170925_111722377_HDR.jpg (105.07 KiB) Viewed 380 times
14002 (800 x 657).jpg
14002 (800 x 657).jpg (38.9 KiB) Viewed 380 times
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

Coolohm
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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Coolohm » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:09 am

How about rotating them 180 degrees so that they clamp onto a central extruded alloy "cooling tower"?

Something like this, which you could weld a plate on one end with two fittings, and a plate on the other with a notch out of the gussets so the coolant flows down then back up.
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Arlo1
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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Arlo1 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:36 am

Coolohm wrote:How about rotating them 180 degrees so that they clamp onto a central extruded alloy "cooling tower"?

Something like this, which you could weld a plate on one end with two fittings, and a plate on the other with a notch out of the gussets so the coolant flows down then back up.
Absolutely not.

The 2 big reasons are the caps will be in the middle making all 6 power switches share current from and to all caps much better and
the Driver boards will be outside to help reduce noise.

Now having said that the heat will be easier to remove from the outside. Having the heat sink face outwards will make air cooling work much better.
Remember even liquid cooling is air cooled. With something like this you want to keep the heat sinks as cool as possible and every time you have to transfer heat from 1 surface to another you have differences. If we put a heat sink right on the back and a fan on it that's the best we can do without using co2 or HVAC.
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Arlo1 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:01 am

Ok to day I come up with the Ideal layout for the buss bars! I am so Stoked!

I will try to add them soon. First I need to check a couple measurements because it seems the inside distance from + and - to the phase out are not quite big enough on the SW file.

After I sort that out and some problems with mates I will draw the bus bars.
Attachments
1000hp3 (800 x 648).jpg
1000hp3 (800 x 648).jpg (74.1 KiB) Viewed 338 times
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by coleasterling » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:07 am

Not 100% sure which dimension that is when looking at a plan view of the module. If that was built from your original sketch, that could be difficult. If you can highlight what's wrong and give me the correct dimension, I'll hop to fixing it. I also heard from my local distributor for Powerex, so they maaaayyyy be able to help get the official model. No promises, yet.

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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Arlo1 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:12 pm

That's great news.

I measured the caps and they measure 21.11582 mm when the data sheet says 21.5mm I will measure the igbts then look for a measurement on SW later.
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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Arlo1
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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Arlo1 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:47 pm

I found it.

The measure tool shows 126.86mm when its actually 128mm between these.
This is just enough room for 6x the caps i plan to fit in there.
Attachments
Capture (800 x 661).jpg
Capture (800 x 661).jpg (43.52 KiB) Viewed 298 times
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by coleasterling » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:16 pm

Updated. I cheated and just made an extrude-cut to open up the space. I assumed an equal cut on either side. If that's not the case, it is adjustable if you edit the sketch in the last extrude-cut feature on the tree and change the dimension at the top.
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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Arlo1 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:01 am

Sweet thanks. I was trying to figure that out.
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

Coolohm
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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Coolohm » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:13 am

Arlo1 wrote:
Coolohm wrote:How about rotating them 180 degrees so that they clamp onto a central extruded alloy "cooling tower"?

Something like this, which you could weld a plate on one end with two fittings, and a plate on the other with a notch out of the gussets so the coolant flows down then back up.
Absolutely not.

The 2 big reasons are the caps will be in the middle making all 6 power switches share current from and to all caps much better and
the Driver boards will be outside to help reduce noise.

Now having said that the heat will be easier to remove from the outside. Having the heat sink face outwards will make air cooling work much better.
Remember even liquid cooling is air cooled. With something like this you want to keep the heat sinks as cool as possible and every time you have to transfer heat from 1 surface to another you have differences. If we put a heat sink right on the back and a fan on it that's the best we can do without using co2 or HVAC.
Ah ok, I just assumed you would water cool with something this big.

Here's another probably dumb idea - What about putting it in a tube and having one large fan?
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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Arlo1 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:12 am

To bulky,

I think a fan on each heat sink with the option to be water cooled.

Either way its easy to deal with cooling when the heat sink is on the outside.

A big reason for the SW work is to get the design layed out then use it for the heat sink design.
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

User avatar
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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Arlo1 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:51 pm

Bus Bars are partially finished!

All + and - buss will be paralleled on each end of the IGBTs to help the caps share current much better.
Attachments
1000hp (800 x 693).jpg
1000hp (800 x 693).jpg (60.07 KiB) Viewed 215 times
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

Coolohm
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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Coolohm » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:23 pm

Ahh I see now the reason for the orientation - that makes the bus bars and caps very tidy!

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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by liveforphysics » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:50 am

I agree! Beautiful cap and bus bar layout!
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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Arlo1 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:44 am

And here is the buss bars with the end connections rolled up I will make a triangle or circle buss that links the 3 in parallel on each end soon as well.
Attachments
1000hp with bus (800 x 657).jpg
1000hp with bus (800 x 657).jpg (72.79 KiB) Viewed 199 times
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by liveforphysics » Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:11 am

Looks so much easier to make than your last bus bars, and makes very clever use of the shared cap leg Inductance between banks. Beautiful.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by coleasterling » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:15 pm

Did you model the bus bars as sheet metal features in SW? If so, great job. That makes it a lot easier to unfold and send out for laser work.

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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Arlo1 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:16 pm

coleasterling wrote:Did you model the bus bars as sheet metal features in SW? If so, great job. That makes it a lot easier to unfold and send out for laser work.
Yes they are. It also lets me change the thickness to what I can actually source when I get home. I need to dress them up a bit yet but it all a learning experience for me
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Ohbse » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:26 pm

Amazing work Arlo! Once you CAD you never go back... Design is incredibly elegant! How are the driver boards going to integrate with the package?

Thumbs up for laser/waterjet cut bus bars. I might have missed it, are you going to have this one air cooled or integrate a waterjacket?

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Re: Time for MORE POWER! 1400a 1200v IGBT controller build

Post by Arlo1 » Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:28 pm

I am thinking about something like this to link the ends together.


Now to let everyone know.. HH is very doubtful this will work well. He let me know I am breaking all the design rules. But I know I am breaking the laminated buss design rule and my hope is because they are in side the middle it won't be such a big deal.
On that note I am not using ANYTHING laminated in the crx controller. Maybe it would be more successful with laminated buss but I have my doubts. I spent a lot of time testing that and could not prove the laminated buss helped my design at all.

I do want things to be laminated and the buss inside the IGBTs is laminated but you still need to add caps and other items and non of these parts are ever designed with to work in harmony with each other.
Attachments
1000hp end links (800 x 610).jpg
1000hp end links (800 x 610).jpg (51.49 KiB) Viewed 136 times
My Leaf motor controller build. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer

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