hub with 6 phase wires

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minde28383
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hub with 6 phase wires

Post by minde28383 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:34 am

Hello,

I got scooter hub motor with 6 wires (6 thick phase wires: yellow, green, blue, yellow, green, blue) coming out of motor. Also there two sets of hall wires (each set has 5 wires).

Originally hub was running with the controller which also has 6 phase wires (yellow, green, blue, yellow, green, blue) . Unfortunanantly old 6 wire controller broke few time already therefore I want to run this hub with new 3 wire controller.

Why these 6 wires are for in this motor? Is it winded to have two speeds? One winding is turned off when certain RPM or current load is reached? I would greatfull for as much as possible details. Why nowdays such 6 wire controlers and hubs are not manufactured anymore? Is it because 6 wire controllers and hubs are more complex, more expensive tp manufacture?



I want to connect this 6 wire hub motor with regular 3 wire contoller.
My plan it to do follwoing way. Connect phase wires from hub like this:
yellow&yellow, green&green, blue&blue
Is it safe to do like that connection? What I will loose and what I will win using three wire controller? Will I get more starting Nm, less speed, and less efficiancy?
Attachments
6 wire sketch.jpg
6 wire sketch.jpg (18.49 KiB) Viewed 505 times
6 wire.jpg
that's how connection box looks currently connected only with three motor phase wires.
CN 5.5kw scooter resurrection in progress
New two wheel in progress with Brammo PMS 120 motor
E Mindless Maverick Talisman longboard, 2.2KW motor, 150Amps controller (gone)
Scooter:Mach 1600w, (sold)
Bicycle: Giant NRS, 2806, ping 48V 15Ah, stock Infineon, (sold)
Bicycle: Trek 4300, 9C, ping 48V 15Ah, Infineon 25A, ~18Wh/km, max speed 45 km, (sold) [/size]

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by minde28383 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:47 am

don't know if this is right place to keep this topic in "E-bike General Discussion".
Maybe it needs to be moved to:
"E-Scooter and Motorcycle General Discussion" or
"Electric Vehicle Technology » Motor Technology".
CN 5.5kw scooter resurrection in progress
New two wheel in progress with Brammo PMS 120 motor
E Mindless Maverick Talisman longboard, 2.2KW motor, 150Amps controller (gone)
Scooter:Mach 1600w, (sold)
Bicycle: Giant NRS, 2806, ping 48V 15Ah, stock Infineon, (sold)
Bicycle: Trek 4300, 9C, ping 48V 15Ah, Infineon 25A, ~18Wh/km, max speed 45 km, (sold) [/size]

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by Voltron » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:51 am

If it's the true 6 phase Hubmonster type, then you need two controllers to run it right.... Like this.
6 phase %28800x450%29.jpg
6 phase %28800x450%29.jpg (164.04 KiB) Viewed 498 times
But some have two wires coming out for each phase, to split the load or run dual stator , but aren't actually 6 phase. Then one controller will work.

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by minde28383 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:59 pm

What are my options to determine if it is 6 phase motor or it is regular 3 phase motor and if it is possible to connect these 6 wires to 3 phase controller?

I've done few tests already but I don't know if they are relevant in helping to determine if it is 6 or 3 phase motor.
Controller I'm doing tests is Sabvoton 72150.

First test was to run motor with only three wires: yellow1, green1, blue1 (see pic1). Test sucessful, motor spins good.
Sendond test was to run motor with another three wires from hub motor: yellow2, green2, blue2 (see pic2). Test sucessful, motor spins good.

Third test I did was resistance measurnment between all 6 wires from hub motor.
Between yellow1, green1, blue1 - resistance is 0.3omhs measured in any order
Between yellow2, green2, blue2 - resistance is 0.3omhs measured in any order

Forth test involved resistance measurnment between all 6 motor wires in following orders:
yellow1, yellow2 - resistance is infinity (no electricity flow)
yellow1, green2 - resistance is infinity (no electricity flow)
yellow1, blue2 - resistance is infinity (no electricity flow)

green1, green2 - resistance is infinity (no electricity flow)
green1, blue2 - resistance is infinity (no electricity flow)
green1, blue2 - resistance is infinity (no electricity flow)

blue1, blue2 - resistance is infinity (no electricity flow)
blue1, green2 - resistance is infinity (no electricity flow)
blue1, yellow2 - resistance is infinity (no electricity flow)

ps.
I know that some of these resistance measurnments are reduandant.
My understanding about resistance is common:
0 resistance - electricity flows,
infinity reistance - electricity does not flow at all.
Attachments
first test.jpg
first test.jpg (18.85 KiB) Viewed 480 times
second test.jpg
second test.jpg (18.49 KiB) Viewed 480 times
CN 5.5kw scooter resurrection in progress
New two wheel in progress with Brammo PMS 120 motor
E Mindless Maverick Talisman longboard, 2.2KW motor, 150Amps controller (gone)
Scooter:Mach 1600w, (sold)
Bicycle: Giant NRS, 2806, ping 48V 15Ah, stock Infineon, (sold)
Bicycle: Trek 4300, 9C, ping 48V 15Ah, Infineon 25A, ~18Wh/km, max speed 45 km, (sold) [/size]

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by flat tire » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:22 pm

You'll need two controllers to run that thing at full power. The windings are separate and will be timed differently so you can't just hook them all up to a single controller.
Orange DH w/ Cyclone mid on 6kw
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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by MadRhino » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:36 pm

You could test the phase regen firing order, that would be enough to make sure. For this you need to test all 6 at once plugging test lights on each, and spin the motor by hand to make it supply current. The test lights will show if phases do alternate in a sequence of 6, or 3 pairs.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by minde28383 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:06 pm

flat tire wrote:You'll need two controllers to run that thing at full power. The windings are separate and will be timed differently so you can't just hook them all up to a single controller.
Hi flat tire,
I very hope it is not true. I need more details and tests (done by me) to confirm what you say.
CN 5.5kw scooter resurrection in progress
New two wheel in progress with Brammo PMS 120 motor
E Mindless Maverick Talisman longboard, 2.2KW motor, 150Amps controller (gone)
Scooter:Mach 1600w, (sold)
Bicycle: Giant NRS, 2806, ping 48V 15Ah, stock Infineon, (sold)
Bicycle: Trek 4300, 9C, ping 48V 15Ah, Infineon 25A, ~18Wh/km, max speed 45 km, (sold) [/size]

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by flat tire » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:32 pm

You already confirmed the two sets of phases are separate with your multimeter. You can try doubling up like colors and running the thing from one controller, but it won't work. Don't go full throttle or you might burn it up!
Orange DH w/ Cyclone mid on 6kw
Gary Fisher w/ Leaf hub on 6kw
RC Lipo and domino throttles only!

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by minde28383 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:29 pm

MadRhino wrote:You could test the phase regen firing order, that would be enough to make sure. For this you need to test all 6 at once plugging test lights on each, and spin the motor by hand to make it supply current. The test lights will show if phases do alternate in a sequence of 6, or 3 pairs.
Hi MadRhino,
This is very apealing test/aproach you are suggesting. How firm it's resuls are?
Due lack of my electrical knowledge I need more basic explanation on how to perform this test. I understand the very escence of it. Bulb will turn ON during wheel spin by hand and it will indicate phase peak so that I could see if bulb tur ON at the same time which would indicate that phase pkeak is at the same time?

How this should be performed exactly by taking 12v bulbs and connecting to which wires exactly?
CN 5.5kw scooter resurrection in progress
New two wheel in progress with Brammo PMS 120 motor
E Mindless Maverick Talisman longboard, 2.2KW motor, 150Amps controller (gone)
Scooter:Mach 1600w, (sold)
Bicycle: Giant NRS, 2806, ping 48V 15Ah, stock Infineon, (sold)
Bicycle: Trek 4300, 9C, ping 48V 15Ah, Infineon 25A, ~18Wh/km, max speed 45 km, (sold) [/size]

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by minde28383 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:58 pm

flat tire wrote:You already confirmed the two sets of phases are separate with your multimeter. You can try doubling up like colors and running the thing from one controller, but it won't work. Don't go full throttle or you might burn it up!
I won't risk by doubling up alike colors (yellow1&yellow2, blue1&blue2, green1&green2) and running the thing from one 3 wire controller unlesss I know 80% beforehand that it is safe to do.

I can show how my 6 wire old controller looks; maybe it gives some clue:
Attachments
1.jpg
2.jpg
3.jpg
4.jpg
5.jpg
6.jpg
7.jpg
CN 5.5kw scooter resurrection in progress
New two wheel in progress with Brammo PMS 120 motor
E Mindless Maverick Talisman longboard, 2.2KW motor, 150Amps controller (gone)
Scooter:Mach 1600w, (sold)
Bicycle: Giant NRS, 2806, ping 48V 15Ah, stock Infineon, (sold)
Bicycle: Trek 4300, 9C, ping 48V 15Ah, Infineon 25A, ~18Wh/km, max speed 45 km, (sold) [/size]

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by minde28383 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:53 pm

Going to test with two 12v bulbs by connecting to:


yellow1, green1 (first 12v bulb conected)
yellow2, green2 (second 12v bulb connected)

my understanding is that if both bulbs will turn ON at the same time than phases are of the exact same timing.
If checked phase timings are is the same than 3 phase controllers fits my 6 wire hub, otherwise it is two controller motor.

Correct 100%?
CN 5.5kw scooter resurrection in progress
New two wheel in progress with Brammo PMS 120 motor
E Mindless Maverick Talisman longboard, 2.2KW motor, 150Amps controller (gone)
Scooter:Mach 1600w, (sold)
Bicycle: Giant NRS, 2806, ping 48V 15Ah, stock Infineon, (sold)
Bicycle: Trek 4300, 9C, ping 48V 15Ah, Infineon 25A, ~18Wh/km, max speed 45 km, (sold) [/size]

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by flat tire » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:11 pm

Really man don't be a pussy you can just connect it. It won't burn anything up if you just run it part throttle and you will know instantly whether it works or not.
Orange DH w/ Cyclone mid on 6kw
Gary Fisher w/ Leaf hub on 6kw
RC Lipo and domino throttles only!

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by minde28383 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 6:26 pm

Not sure how sabvoton will react in case phases have different timings. Tommorow will do bulb test and then we will see whats next move.
CN 5.5kw scooter resurrection in progress
New two wheel in progress with Brammo PMS 120 motor
E Mindless Maverick Talisman longboard, 2.2KW motor, 150Amps controller (gone)
Scooter:Mach 1600w, (sold)
Bicycle: Giant NRS, 2806, ping 48V 15Ah, stock Infineon, (sold)
Bicycle: Trek 4300, 9C, ping 48V 15Ah, Infineon 25A, ~18Wh/km, max speed 45 km, (sold) [/size]

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by Ohbse » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:24 pm

These motors are two three phase motors on a single stator, they're one tooth offset in timing and *WILL NOT RUN* on a single controller, don't even bother trying.

You need two controllers and they need to be connected to the right phase and hall pairings.

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by Hillhater » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:47 pm

Why dont you post more details of the motor ?
Make / model, RPM data.
power rating , voltage/ current rating
Even a photo would help end this endless guessing at what you are dealing with .
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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by MadRhino » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:20 pm

From the pics, your controller is looking like it is real 6 phase, not 3 pairs.
You will need two 3 phase controllers to run it. One will run, but only part of its capability and possibly cogging in acceleration.

It might not be as simple as plugging two independant controllers. I believe that you will have to link them to make one main, one slave. Alternatively, you may be able to find a 6 phase controller on the Chinese market, especially if you can find an ID mark on the motor, that would lead to identify the manufacturer.
Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.
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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by minde28383 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:47 am

Ohbse wrote:These motors are two three phase motors on a single stator, they're one tooth offset in timing and *WILL NOT RUN* on a single controller, don't even bother trying.

You need two controllers and they need to be connected to the right phase and hall pairings.
From motor phase wires resistance measurement it is apparent that these motors are two separate three phase motors inside one hub, but I had slight faith that both motors would be of the same timing (no offset in timing) and could be driven by one controller.
CN 5.5kw scooter resurrection in progress
New two wheel in progress with Brammo PMS 120 motor
E Mindless Maverick Talisman longboard, 2.2KW motor, 150Amps controller (gone)
Scooter:Mach 1600w, (sold)
Bicycle: Giant NRS, 2806, ping 48V 15Ah, stock Infineon, (sold)
Bicycle: Trek 4300, 9C, ping 48V 15Ah, Infineon 25A, ~18Wh/km, max speed 45 km, (sold) [/size]

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by minde28383 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:00 am

MadRhino wrote:From the pics, your controller is looking like it is real 6 phase, not 3 pairs.
You will need two 3 phase controllers to run it. One will run, but only part of its capability and possibly cogging in acceleration.
Tried quite a few times to run pair of three phase wires (one test with three wires, and second test with another three wires) to run by three phase controller and it runs smooth with wheel lifted in the air. It's like running with half motor and dragging dead weight.
Idea of acquiring some obsolete six phase controller is not appealing. I rather would rewind hub to be driven by regular three phase controller.
Last edited by Alan B on Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed broken quote
CN 5.5kw scooter resurrection in progress
New two wheel in progress with Brammo PMS 120 motor
E Mindless Maverick Talisman longboard, 2.2KW motor, 150Amps controller (gone)
Scooter:Mach 1600w, (sold)
Bicycle: Giant NRS, 2806, ping 48V 15Ah, stock Infineon, (sold)
Bicycle: Trek 4300, 9C, ping 48V 15Ah, Infineon 25A, ~18Wh/km, max speed 45 km, (sold) [/size]

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by minde28383 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:29 am

Hillhater wrote:Why dont you post more details of the motor ?
Make / model, RPM data.
power rating , voltage/ current rating
Even a photo would help end this endless guessing at what you are dealing with .

As already been mentioned by members above I too think that this hub motor has one stator (not two) and stator is winded with two three phase motors therefore it needs to be driven by two controllers (synched phases and halls) or controller with six wires (the controller it was driven originally with).

photo and other specs; pdf attached.

originally scooter had 60v batteries (nominal)
six wire controler current 90A (maybe 180A of phase current)
12inch rim

that's the only details know. But most importantly i measured resistance of each pair of phase wires and it says it all. It says that it is two 3 phase motors inside hub. My hope was that phase timing are exactly the same. If it was true than hub would be able to be driven by one 3 phase conctroller.
Attachments
EM5000L.pdf
(226.53 KiB) Downloaded 7 times
motor1.jpg
motor2.jpg

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by Alan B » Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:40 am

It certainly sounds like this motor is designed to be run with two separate three phase controllers. A six phase motor has two sets of windings are each three phase but interleaved at 30 degrees (as was suggested above) for six phase torque ripple and smoother operation. This allows two low cost controllers to be used. It is like 2WD in one wheel. If you search for six phase motors you will find why this is done and how it works.

Rewinding would be a large effort, why not use two controllers? If it was a single winding it would need a more industrial controller that might be difficult and costly to work with. I recall we had a member here who did a lot of work with that type of motor.

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by Voltron » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:07 am

Yes, sort of the point is to be able to cram lots of power into the motor with two normal-ish controllers. The stock one is two controllers in one box, but it will run on any matched controllers, and they don't need to be set up as master/slave, like they would trying to sync two controllers into a single 3 phase setup. It would be a shame to rewind... somebody out there will buy it from you if you don't like the two controller idea.

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by minde28383 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:21 am

Alan B wrote:It certainly sounds like this motor is designed to be run with two separate three phase controllers. A six phase motor has two sets of windings are each three phase but interleaved at 30 degrees (as was suggested above) for six phase torque ripple and smoother operation. This allows two low cost controllers to be used. It is like 2WD in one wheel. If you search for six phase motors you will find why this is done and how it works.

Rewinding would be a large effort, why not use two controllers? If it was a single winding it would need a more industrial controller that might be difficult and costly to work with. I recall we had a member here who did a lot of work with that type of motor.
"single winding"? You mean that all copper is on one stator but not two stators?
"industrial controller"? Originally scooter had installed six wire controller like in the pictures with lid open (few posts above). It did not look industrial, it looks old scooter controller with big radiator which is actually its box.

Theoretically I could use the same original controller by getting it fixed third time and wasting more money on it but this controller is not so powerful (90A batt and 180A phase). It is not sine and does have option to change settings by connecting to PC or phone. Therefore I rather run controllers lile Sabvoton, Mobipus or Similar stuff.

So the only option which now seems plausible to me is to rewind this motor.
How big it is for person without practical experience? In other words never rewinded any motor before.
Will I make it at all? Is it worth expenses. How much I need to spend on copper and do I need any more material anything else besides copper?
If you guys think that it's realy bad idea to start this rewind thing than I sell this scooter, otherwise crack open hub for further inspection & pictures.
CN 5.5kw scooter resurrection in progress
New two wheel in progress with Brammo PMS 120 motor
E Mindless Maverick Talisman longboard, 2.2KW motor, 150Amps controller (gone)
Scooter:Mach 1600w, (sold)
Bicycle: Giant NRS, 2806, ping 48V 15Ah, stock Infineon, (sold)
Bicycle: Trek 4300, 9C, ping 48V 15Ah, Infineon 25A, ~18Wh/km, max speed 45 km, (sold) [/size]

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by Voltron » Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:33 am

Just get two modern controllers, like a pair of Sabvotons or Powervelocity ones. You will be out and riding before you would even got the old windings out on a rewind job. Industrial controllers were mentioned I'm guessing because of how much power that thing will take in a burst... that isn't easily available in a single controller setup.

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by minde28383 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:08 pm

Can somebody explain me why two motors won't work if both 3 phase motors are on the same stator? And of course phase sequence is the same.
Do you now somebody trying to run such motor with one controller unsuccessful or successfully? Do you really know that it won't work?
I think it must work with one 3 phase controller.
CN 5.5kw scooter resurrection in progress
New two wheel in progress with Brammo PMS 120 motor
E Mindless Maverick Talisman longboard, 2.2KW motor, 150Amps controller (gone)
Scooter:Mach 1600w, (sold)
Bicycle: Giant NRS, 2806, ping 48V 15Ah, stock Infineon, (sold)
Bicycle: Trek 4300, 9C, ping 48V 15Ah, Infineon 25A, ~18Wh/km, max speed 45 km, (sold) [/size]

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Re: hub with 6 phase wires

Post by Addy » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:27 pm

minde28383 wrote:Can somebody explain me why two motors won't work if both 3 phase motors are on the same stator? And of course phase sequence is the same.
Do you now somebody trying to run such motor with one controller unsuccessful or successfully? Do you really know that it won't work?
I think it must work with one 3 phase controller.
Two motors can work together if their rotors are physically locked together and the electrical phases are exactly aligned. From what everyone is saying, it seems like the phases in your motor are not aligned. This is logical. Why would the manufacturer choose a 6 phase wiring setup if it would be easier to do a 3 phase winding? They have offset the phases for smoother torque delivery.

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