Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by macribs » Aug 20 2018 6:53am

Vasili is also working on a bigger one. Can't remember 24 or 30 FET version. Don't know when that will be ready though. Try asking him for details if you consider Vasili controller.

The biggest one should bring even more fun for adrenaline junkies.

Mmm mobipus.

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by madin88 » Aug 20 2018 1:58pm

macribs wrote:
Aug 20 2018 6:53am
Vasili is also working on a bigger one. Can't remember 24 or 30 FET version. Don't know when that will be ready though. Try asking him for details if you consider Vasili controller.

I am already on the list of buyers for the 12F unit as i want to get rid off the Adaptto controller as soon as possible. Don't wanna deal with the issues anymore.
What i really like about the Vasili Controller is that it comes with a screen, it has a charge function and in future there will come a BMS for >20s batteries.
Overall it's very similar to the Adaptto system.
Yes it is not as powerful as the Midi-E, but as it is now i can out accelerate most vehicles here on the road at WOT from a dead stop, and i think it will be still a fun ride with just 200A motor current, but we'll see :)
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by macribs » Aug 20 2018 2:14pm

That makes sense. Forgot about the screen and the charging. That is so cool. Very user friendly.

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by district9prawn » Aug 22 2018 8:38am

I've received my 8057 and I seem to have the same problem as madin with his original shaft. The fit is quite loose. With the motor bolted to a block of wood and clamped to the desk, the vibration is strong enough at 3000rpm to cause my oscilloscope to slowly wander around the desk. The motor itself seems fine. No load consumption is nice and low and nothing funky on the scope when spinning motor with drill.
Neu 8057 6kW left hand drive hardtail: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=96754

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by larsb » Aug 22 2018 3:06pm

Could you post the BEMF plot from the oscilloscope? Would be interesting to see the shape.

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by district9prawn » Aug 23 2018 9:46am

larsb wrote:
Aug 22 2018 3:06pm
Could you post the BEMF plot from the oscilloscope? Would be interesting to see the shape.
Image

From the scope shot the kv looks closer to 90 than 100.
Neu 8057 6kW left hand drive hardtail: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=96754

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Re: middrive motor, small and powerful -> Neu 8057/75 or??

Post by Rudic » Aug 23 2018 3:37pm

madin88 wrote:
Jan 23 2018 1:18pm

The motor is there!
It took only 3 days from LA to Austria :)
Hi madin !

Very good work!

I want to buy this motor for a pocket bike (i already build it with an Aerodrive 6374 but i want to improve top speed)

You say that shipping time was 3 days, what about custom/duty taxes?

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by madin88 » Aug 24 2018 6:53am

district9prawn wrote:
Aug 22 2018 8:38am
I've received my 8057 and I seem to have the same problem as madin with his original shaft. The fit is quite loose. With the motor bolted to a block of wood and clamped to the desk, the vibration is strong enough at 3000rpm to cause my oscilloscope to slowly wander around the desk. The motor itself seems fine. No load consumption is nice and low and nothing funky on the scope when spinning motor with drill.
Yes the non-balanced rotor is a big problem.
The Neu NM44xx series do come with a balanced rotor and other types too from what i found out, but the 80xx series does not.
I wonder why they don't do this inhernetly ex factory? If you buy this motor you really should ask for balancing it before shipping!

At first i thought about balacing it by myself which could be done by adding mass between the magnets by "try end error", or i also have seen that someone was holding a file to the outside of the rotor when the motor was spinning. Doing so will file off mass where it's to much (but the motor would look ugly and scratched than).

Neumotor mentioned i should sent the rotor back to them for balacing, but aside from the hassle with shipping back and forth (probably customs duty on both sides) i would not have been able to ride with the bike, so i asked them for a new rotor incl another long shaft with built in 5x5mm keyway for my taper lock bushings.
It is important that rotor and shaft are balanced together, because if you remove the shaft (or just loosen the bolts), it could get out of balance!

I also decided to swap out the standard NSK bearings for high quality hybrid ceramics, as it was running very noisy aside from the vibrations (too much play in the bearing itself). There was also a tiny little play between the shaft and the bearing, so i added a drop of loctite during assembly.

Now the motor runs very silent and smooth and i also noticed a small drop in no-load consumption 8)
Rudic wrote:
Aug 23 2018 3:37pm
I want to buy this motor for a pocket bike (i already build it with an Aerodrive 6374 but i want to improve top speed)

You say that shipping time was 3 days, what about custom/duty taxes?
Yes it really took only 3 days from CA USA to Austria (shipped via DHL).
I had to pay 20% of the total amount (total means incl shipping costs) and 15€ processing fee.

Whats your target power and topspeed?
Maybe the 8039 is powerful enough for your pocket bike, but on the other hand you can never have enough torque (especially on a single stage reduction i would go with more torque and less RPM).
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by Rudic » Aug 26 2018 11:39am

madin88 wrote:
Aug 24 2018 6:53am

Rudic wrote:
Aug 23 2018 3:37pm
I want to buy this motor for a pocket bike (i already build it with an Aerodrive 6374 but i want to improve top speed)

You say that shipping time was 3 days, what about custom/duty taxes?
Yes it really took only 3 days from CA USA to Austria (shipped via DHL).
I had to pay 20% of the total amount (total means incl shipping costs) and 15€ processing fee.

Whats your target power and topspeed?
Maybe the 8039 is powerful enough for your pocket bike, but on the other hand you can never have enough torque (especially on a single stage reduction i would go with more torque and less RPM).
I'm looking for a multi-project motor:

project 1: pocket bike
min. 5hp, min 70-80 km/h
in the link a SK3-6374 (2700 W)-12s Lipo-VESC pocket bike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZOdHgs2wxM
it lacks in topspeed (low power), slighty better than a 49cc chinese engine pocket bike, little less than a Polini 4.2 (hp)-40 cc engine pocket bike.
Torque is better than any "normal" not chinese engine pocket bike (in races motors start from 10 hp and above )

project 2: mini gp/pit bike motorcycle
min. 10 hp , min 100-130 km/h


I think that the 8039 and the 8019 too, works fine for project 1
but not very fine for project 2 (i don't want to buy 2 motor)
Last edited by Rudic on Aug 28 2018 3:09am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by madin88 » Aug 27 2018 2:46am

Rudic wrote:
Aug 26 2018 11:39am
project 2: mini gp/pit bike motorcycle
min. 10 hp , min 100-130 km/h
if you wanna go 100kmh even on the flat you probably need more as the 10hp, and for 130kmh i guess it needs 15-20hp (depending on the aerodynamic drag).
I would use a larger motor for this project.
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by douglashart » Sep 18 2018 4:36pm

Hi madin, I could've PMed you but, since I just got here ,I wanted pump the thread for MORE. How about that video you promised? :D . Congrats on ANOTHER incedible build.!Questions:(1) Tell me , is the rotor keyed to the shaft or ??? (2) Would you consider printing out and wiring up that halls fixture(X2) for me or ?? whatever $ you would need to do so. Your time is valuable to me. (3) Do you think it possible to run 2 of these motors on one shaft and as one motor using only one controller? im big on the qulbix and I can see where two of the 19Neu version could straddle the shock and belt down to a reduction shaft thru swingarm. It would ONLY be capable of 2/3 the watts , I know , but im an old guy and 6kw , 3 continuous sounds huge to me Thanks again for the pioneering

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by douglashart » Sep 19 2018 1:43am

I just answered my own Q? duh Im total newb all over. I see now what is meant by 'outrunner' !

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by macribs » Sep 19 2018 4:50am

Yes you can run two motors on one shaft with no problems. You however need to run each motor with its individual controller afaik.
In theory that will double the torque and power output over one single motor. In real life you might not see double, as ie you battery might prevent you from draining the needed ampere. But it will be radical more brutal then one motor for sure.

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by madin88 » Sep 19 2018 6:00am

Hey Guys,

as for the riding vids i am to lazy atm to tinker with the action cam. I would like to mount it on the swingarm, but first i need to figure out which holder i could use (looking for off the shell parts) and how it can be attached. I would keep it installed permanently on the bike.
Vids of the motor spinning, and about drive train noise i could do with my phone, hmmm will do that before the next ride - promised! :wink:
macribs wrote:
Sep 19 2018 4:50am
Yes you can run two motors on one shaft with no problems. You however need to run each motor with its individual controller afaik
Yes using two controllers probably would be more practicable, but theoretically, if the stator and rotor are exactly similar aligned on one shaft, you could just parallel the windings and run both with one controller.
Doing so would be a so called DD winding ("delta delta" with both motors parallel), but if you separate the windings which are now coming out of the motor, a star Y or double star YY termination should be also possible . Then kV could be adjusted by a wide range.

@ douglashart

1) the rotor is bolted with 6 x M5 bolts to the shaft
2) yes i can offer the 3D printed parts
3) see above, but i wonder why you would like to mount two motors beside the shock? When looking at the qulbix frames i would put one motor underneath the swingarm.
If you have a large wheel then two of the 8019mm motor definitely would not make you happy in terms of torque - at least if you go with same 1:6 reduction as in i did.

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by macribs » Sep 19 2018 6:14am

Thx for educating me. I didn't know that. That might open up some interesting use cases for bikes with real estate issues.
But that would also mean it would be even more important to choose a controller that can deliver high amp load? As the amp would drive both motors?

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by madin88 » Sep 19 2018 7:31am

macribs wrote:
Sep 19 2018 6:14am
Thx for educating me. I didn't know that. That might open up some interesting use cases for bikes with real estate issues.
But that would also mean it would be even more important to choose a controller that can deliver high amp load? As the amp would drive both motors?
Yes i think so.
If you wire up two motors in parallel, then they can take two times the current because only 50% of the applied current will flow through each single motor (same as if you put two identical resistors in parallel). kV will stay the same.
But it would be always better to choose one large motor instead of two small ones with half the size, because two small ones have twice the endturn losses.
Then it would be ESSENTIAL to align the rotors to be excatly similar in order to get identical BEMF (should be measured with an osci). Otherwise there would flow current just around between the two motors making them less efficient which would be also noticeable in higher drag then..

As previously mentioned i will soon do improvements on the rotor by installing stronger, segmented magnets and rewind it to 4T (~60kV) or 5T (~50kV) YY.
The goal is to lower overall losses and improve torque.
Neumotor agreed to give me a naked stator + holder.
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
- Fully road legal (L1E approval) e-bike based on Votec V-FR frame
/ MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by douglashart » Sep 19 2018 7:29pm

3) see above, but i wonder why you would like to mount two motors beside the shock? When looking at the qulbix frames i would put one motor underneath the swingarm.
Just doing a lot of pondering before I go crazy and pull the trigger on a project that is probably over my head. I was thinking 2 of the '19' motors could sit as far out(or in) as possible, with a shaft (just below the shock) tying them together .there would be room for belt(s) straight down thru the swingarm to a jackshaft , for reduction and or even a 2 spd tranny. Looking at it today im thinking theres not room for sprocket AND couplers there . 8000 rpm kinda intimidates me , but its apparent this is a clean little machine (with your upgrades). I don't want to go fast but I do want to haul a big load up a big hill, do you think this would run well at a huge reduction? 20 to 1 ?

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by douglashart » Sep 19 2018 9:01pm

As previously mentioned i will soon do improvements on the rotor by installing stronger, segmented magnets and rewind it to 4T (~60kV) or 5T (~50kV) YY.
I missed this! Incredible! Ill definitely be here ! :D

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by macribs » Sep 20 2018 12:33am

douglashart wrote:
Sep 19 2018 7:29pm
3) see above, but i wonder why you would like to mount two motors beside the shock? When looking at the qulbix frames i would put one motor underneath the swingarm.
Just doing a lot of pondering before I go crazy and pull the trigger on a project that is probably over my head. I was thinking 2 of the '19' motors could sit as far out(or in) as possible, with a shaft (just below the shock) tying them together .there would be room for belt(s) straight down thru the swingarm to a jackshaft , for reduction and or even a 2 spd tranny. Looking at it today im thinking theres not room for sprocket AND couplers there . 8000 rpm kinda intimidates me , but its apparent this is a clean little machine (with your upgrades). I don't want to go fast but I do want to haul a big load up a big hill, do you think this would run well at a huge reduction? 20 to 1 ?
I read what you wrote but I don't think I fully understand what you are chasing. Could you maybe do a quick drawing?
2 motors connected to 1 shaft. Placed on the front of the swing arm where the shock is mounted. You like to run a jackshaft to step down motor RPM, correct? And you will do that by running a jackshaft, but where do you picture the jackshaft will fit?

Placing the motors in front of swing arm. This will eat real estate and you might need to move things a little so that you also eat away some of the battery compartment. Which Qulbix frame do you have?

If max motor speed is 8000 RPM you will need to use a jackshaft to gear down. 20:1 or there about reduction should be sweet. You should get both enough speed and torque for your needs.

Have you seen how they done it with the Sur Ron bike? Look at the motor, the got a small real estate reduction attached to the motor.

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by douglashart » Sep 20 2018 2:41pm

Havent bought anything yet but ill be using the r76 Qublix. SO , ive only pictures to design off of. After seeing this
i will soon do improvements on the rotor by installing stronger, segmented magnets and rewind it to 4T (~60kV) or 5T (~50kV) YY.
I think 50 kv @ 7 to 1 reduction would come close to serving my purposes, so im thinking ,initially, about setting up similar (chain or belt) to your build. If after riding it a while, i decide i need more reduction , then at least ill have the bike+motor there to design off.

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by douglashart » Sep 20 2018 6:17pm

yes! the Sur-ron setup could well work under the qublix (esp with the neumotor) but im afraid it will only work with the 8038. Even at that, i think it could work. If your pulling 10kw from the 8057, would i be correct in thinking the 8038 good for 6 kw - 3kw continuous?
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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by macribs » Sep 21 2018 6:34am

Come to think of a dual motor match for you, sur ron got a dual motor setup, factory ready complete with dual controller inside single controller housing. Where you get dual motor on one axle paired up and matched with their dual controller. Looking at the price point for the sur ron I think you should check with sur ron to see what price they will give you for the parts. You might be very surprised. Also if that dual motor dual controller setup is too powerful for you, they do got great single motor options as well. Links in the end of the posts, and click images for larger pics.

Image

Image

Image




Read More:

Sur Ron Dual Motor + Dual Controller

Sur Ron Single motor drive train

Evnerds.com

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by madin88 » Sep 23 2018 2:41am

douglashart wrote:
Sep 20 2018 6:17pm
yes! the Sur-ron setup could well work under the qublix (esp with the neumotor) but im afraid it will only work with the 8038. Even at that, i think it could work.
I wonder why you like to use the Neumotor if you probably could fit the QS2000W or an LMX midmotor below the swingarm.
Mentioned motors have 2-3times the weight, but they have all the benefits of an Inrunner design, and can take way more peak power due to the larger mass.
The QS2000 should work well with my 1:6 belt drive as it has above 45Nm peak torque.
If your pulling 10kw from the 8057, would i be correct in thinking the 8038 good for 6 kw - 3kw continuous?
As for the continuous power it is very hard to tell so far, because the Adaptto controller doesn't work properly, or better say not that efficient sometimes -> which i now believe is a GENERAL ISSUE and not just related to this motor.
One day i was riding up that hill, pulling 8-10kw for some minutes and the Controller was below 45°C and Motor less than 100°
We are talking about similar power to QSV3.
Then the other day the motor did overheat at half of the distance when riding up that hill, and the controller was close before shutdown too :x

I am really looking forward to get the Vasili Controller, but there are many other options too if you don't looking for a unit with display, BMS, charge function etc as i would like to have.

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by icherouveim » Sep 23 2018 5:57am

madin88 wrote:
Sep 23 2018 2:41am
douglashart wrote:
Sep 20 2018 6:17pm
yes! the Sur-ron setup could well work under the qublix (esp with the neumotor) but im afraid it will only work with the 8038. Even at that, i think it could work.
I wonder why you like to use the Neumotor if you probably could fit the QS2000W or an LMX midmotor below the swingarm.
Mentioned motors have 2-3times the weight, but they have all the benefits of an Inrunner design, and can take way more peak power due to the larger mass.
The QS2000 should work well with my 1:6 belt drive as it has above 45Nm peak torque.
If your pulling 10kw from the 8057, would i be correct in thinking the 8038 good for 6 kw - 3kw continuous?
As for the continuous power it is very hard to tell so far, because the Adaptto controller doesn't work properly, or better say not that efficient sometimes -> which i now believe is a GENERAL ISSUE and not just related to this motor.
One day i was riding up that hill, pulling 8-10kw for some minutes and the Controller was below 45°C and Motor less than 100°
We are talking about similar power to QSV3.
Then the other day the motor did overheat at half of the distance when riding up that hill, and the controller was close before shutdown too :x

I am really looking forward to get the Vasili Controller, but there are many other options too if you don't looking for a unit with display, BMS, charge function etc as i would like to have.
Does Vasili's controller have a good auto fine tune function? Does it adapt ind timing setting according to battery's drop voltage? Im asking because with adaptto controller you said you have to stop once a while to change timing setting and the other one.

ASI controllers I think do this but they don't have on the go options at the moment

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Post by douglashart » Sep 24 2018 11:27pm

I wonder why you like to use the Neumotor if you probably could fit the QS2000W or an LMX midmotor below the swingarm.
Thnx for the help madin .Im sure your right about the mass, but just the size of the neu , gives that much more space for a reduction shaft. more reduction = less stress on the motor? I would be happy enough with a top speed of 40kph. Something that stumps me is that a 60kv inrunner @ 6 to 1 reduction is still higher kv than my mxus 5t,7.2 kv ,which I always wished was lower geared . I was looking at LR small block (again less mass but), I believe, could also fit a shaft behind the motor . I may well spring for a Qulbix frame with an extra swingarm so I can build one (one stage) then play with another. Ill be waiting for the mentioned upgrades from vasili and your progress with this neumotor. Pound for pound I would guess the outrunner has a higher % of copper than inrunners, but that's just me guessing again.

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