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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Jun 25 2018 2:11pm
by madin88
I have mentioned that there was a problem with the motor shaft bearings. The rotor had an unusual large radial play and it did run very rough and noisy.
So i replaced the two NSK R10Z bearings with hybrid ceramic's, and for the one on the pulley side i even chose one in ABEC 5 grade (as there will be the largest forces).
The quality of the ABEC 5 bearing is amazing! It is on a differnt level as standard grade bearings (it simply has NO play), but so is the price.
The motor runs very silent and smooth now. There is just a little noise coming from vibrations of the rotor because it got never balanced.

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Drum wrote:
Jun 24 2018 3:20pm
Looks like you will get a lot of enjoyment from that bike!
Yeah cruising around with that bike now is much more enjoyable as it was before with the hubmotor.
The wheel keep staying on the ground when riding on uneven roads or offroad. With the hubdrive such situations felt dangerous, espeially when cornering.

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Jul 03 2018 10:55am
by ltu
hello madin88

good work
do you have more report about consumption and efficency?

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Jul 06 2018 7:15am
by larsb
I really like this setup. But how long does it take from 0-50km/h in a drag race? :D
It will be great to compare to my previous Kona Stinky build

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Jul 18 2018 10:15am
by madin88
ltu wrote:
Jul 03 2018 10:55am
do you have more report about consumption and efficency?
Yes i have.
Recently i did a long test ride together with other ebikers and one was riding my second bike with QSV3.

in detail:

QSV3 50h 4T, Max-E set to 120/250A, 22s LiIon, 17" moped wheels (11,8kW peak)
vs
the Neumotor Setup with Midi-E set to 120/250A, 20s LiIon 17" moped wheels (9,8kW peak)

not 100% fair as i forgot about the different battery voltage i noticed later, but yet quite meaningful.
The low average speed comes because we were riding with other ebikes, but we many times ride WOT with lot of stop and go and hard braking (up to 3kW regen power).
Overall, the consumption of the Neumtor setup is very similar to the Setup with QSV3.

When accelerating side by side, the bike with hubdrive was quicker off the line (up to 30-40kmh), but than the Neumotor started to pass over and did reach the speed limit of 80kmh quicker. 8)
Both bikes had a set speed limit of 80kmh (which was confirmed to be accurate by GPS).
The noticeable higher drag of the belt drive at the beginning went much better. I guess this is because it run in and the belt runs smoother now with less friction. It is not an issue for me, and regenerativ braking works as well as on the QS motor.

statistic screen from the bike with QSV3::

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and here from the Neumotor:

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from a longer ride at higher average speed:

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When time allows i will post vids of the noise of the motor only, with belt and during riding, but at the moment i have not much time..

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 01 2018 9:57am
by district9prawn
Just read through this thread. Great job! I've been looking for a motor to do a rear wheel direct drive with regen and I think this will be it. For control I've been building an 18 fet vesc and am hoping to get it working with encoder.

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 05 2018 4:53am
by madin88
So far i have ridden more than 1000km now. Aside from the blown Max-E and other problems with the controller (more about that later) i had no issues with the drive system.
The belt shows a little wear in the form of small cracks (i counted two or three on the topside on a closer inspection), but i don't think it will snap off that soon, at least i hope so!
I believe the reason for the cracks it not so much because of the torque, but rather because i am using an 18T drive pulley whereas Gates recommends to not using less than 22T for all those belts. The Polychain GT Carbon is very stiff and hard to bend so it doesn't like small bending radius.

In the meantime i received a new rotor from Neumotor which was balanced in the factory together with the shaft.
It is running very smooth and almost all vibrations are gone. There is a slight oscillation at around 50-55kmh now where the motor is louder than usual, but otherwise it is many times better as it was before, and also the no-load consumption is a bit lower now -> less vibrations = less power wasted.

When i swapped the rotor also had to remount the "encoder disc" to the shaft. I hooked up the osci again and adjusted the Hall sensors to 0° timing as it was before.
When i did the Autodetect setup everything seemed fine. The controller also measured that angle_corr of 0° to be optimal, and RPM and no-load consumption was in the ballpark so you might assume that everything is OK, BUT it wasn't.
The motor did overheat very quick on the slightest grade.
Strange....
I did again Autodetect and oddly the controller now measured a different hall offset, and an angle_corr of +6° as the optimal setting now. Of course i always did manual tuning and measured RPM and no-load consumption, so this is very strange i don't understand the problem.
Strange...
Did i already mention that operation of Adaptto controllers is strange?

Than there is the problem with PWR timing, which needs to be adjusted if the battery voltage gets lower to prevent the so called "run away situation".
Now it is like that:
- when fully charged to 82V, a PWR_timing of 0,88 is optimal (no runaway and lowest heating under load).
- at 78V and less i need to adjust to the next lower setting which is 0,71 or so.
- below 72V there comes again the runaway situation and i need to adjust it further down to 0,53 in order to get the motor running smooth and efficient.

It also seems that IND_timing should be adjusted with the voltage (the lower, the higher the value as far as i found out).

I am already used to stop riding, do the adjustment and go on, but it is very annyoing and i still don't know if the motor even than is driven correctly or not.

I also noticed this problem when using Adaptto together with Hubmotors like MXUS or QS (as most Adaptto owners have), so there should be no problem with the Neumotor itself. The problem lies in the Controller.
The Neumotor with it's 18N16P design should be perfect fit for sine wave controllers as it has sine wave BEMF and torque curve, and on top of that also very low cogging torque.

district9prawn wrote:
Aug 01 2018 9:57am
Just read through this thread. Great job! I've been looking for a motor to do a rear wheel direct drive with regen and I think this will be it. For control I've been building an 18 fet vesc and am hoping to get it working with encoder.
Do you have a link to the controller?

----

The plans for the future

- looking for a different controller (thought about the 12F unit from VasiliSk which should be close to a Midi-E with 120A battery)
- now i have that one rotor (motor bell) as spare lying around, so i thought what could i do with it, and got the idea of doing full magnet segmentation (FMS) which would lower the no-load losses. Google that stuff if you are interested. It means you are using many small magnets instead of a single one in order to reduce the eddy currents in the magnets.
- another future idea (maybe over the winter month) is to rewind the motor to a lower kV. The reason for that is to get more inductance and more torque at same phase amps. I don't need so much topspeed, but would like to get more peak torque by not going up with the amps. More RPM can be always achieved with field weakening.

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 05 2018 5:20am
by madin88
Some pics:

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next to a SuperSoco E-moped :mrgreen:

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The belt stays well at it's place on the rear pulley:

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On the driver pulley the belt moves a bit outwards under heavy load as you see when looking at the rusty surface from the teeth (looks like 2-3mm) .
I believe this is because the vertical part of the motor bracke bends under high pull forces which than changes the angle of alignment.

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that was the consumption for last 207km:

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Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 05 2018 7:04am
by district9prawn
madin88 wrote:
Aug 05 2018 4:53am
I did again Autodetect and oddly the controller now measured a different hall offset, and an angle_corr of +6° as the optimal setting now. Of course i always did manual tuning and measured RPM and no-load consumption, so this is very strange i don't understand the problem.
Strange...
Did i already mention that operation of Adaptto controllers is strange?
It seems like every adaptto owner has a similar story to this.
madin88 wrote:
Aug 05 2018 4:53am
Do you have a link to the controller?
https://github.com/TechAUmNu/A200S
Uses 100v 1.5mohm mosfets but current sense ICs are limited to 75v absolute max. So 16s or below.
madin88 wrote:
Aug 05 2018 4:53am
- another future idea (maybe over the winter month) is to rewind the motor to a lower kV. The reason for that is to get more inductance and more torque at same phase amps. I don't need so much topspeed, but would like to get more peak torque by not going up with the amps. More RPM can be always achieved with field weakening.
I reckon this motor would work well with field weakening compared to most rc outrunners because of its relatively high inductance. I calculate that at 5000rpm (approx max at 20s) and using your earlier inductance and resistance values you get 65v of extra "voltage" at 100A field weakening current. Pretty cool assuming my math is right.

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 06 2018 7:21pm
by neptronix
This is one of the coolest drive systems i've seen on here.

i gotta ask though.. where did you get the drive sprocket holder? or was it just custom?
It looks like it was designed to hook up to a bike chainring.

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 06 2018 11:31pm
by Ohbse
I gave up on my Adaptto after being a very vocal supporter... too many un-explainable issues similar to your experience. I blew two mini-e, one mid-e and two max-e, now all are broken and I have given up on factory support.

I would highly recommend checking out the Mobipus controllers... I've been running a 72200 for some time and it's fantastic. You should be able to run 200a battery, 350 phase with great reliability. That should easily surpass the hub motor in every regard :)

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 07 2018 7:29am
by Compoundbike
That`s Crazy what is your Battery ?

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 07 2018 12:41pm
by macribs
Ohbse wrote:
Aug 06 2018 11:31pm
I gave up on my Adaptto after being a very vocal supporter... too many un-explainable issues similar to your experience. I blew two mini-e, one mid-e and two max-e, now all are broken and I have given up on factory support.

I would highly recommend checking out the Mobipus controllers... I've been running a 72200 for some time and it's fantastic. You should be able to run 200a battery, 350 phase with great reliability. That should easily surpass the hub motor in every regard :)

Shit, did you get any help and support from Adaptto at all or did you just loose all that money? Sorry to hear a company with so much potential driving it all to ground.

Mobipus, are they even available any more? Last I heard Mobipus was going all OEM and no more sale to end user.

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 07 2018 3:11pm
by Ohbse
macribs wrote:
Aug 07 2018 12:41pm
Shit, did you get any help and support from Adaptto at all or did you just loose all that money? Sorry to hear a company with so much potential driving it all to ground.

Mobipus, are they even available any more? Last I heard Mobipus was going all OEM and no more sale to end user.
I had my first mini repaired twice, my first blown max e went around the world multiple times but never even got seen by adaptto. Honestly I didn't bother with the rest after blowing a ton of money on shipping and duty for broken parts I'd already paid for.

Mobipus is available again direct to public, see my mobipus thread for details. I haven't bought another one (yet) because my first one is still perfect. I will be putting two on my madass.

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 08 2018 2:58pm
by madin88
neptronix wrote:
Aug 06 2018 7:21pm
This is one of the coolest drive systems i've seen on here.

i gotta ask though.. where did you get the drive sprocket holder? or was it just custom?
It looks like it was designed to hook up to a bike chainring.
Thanks!
yes the sprocket holder is normally used to hold a cart chainring. I bought it from LMX bikes in France together with the "dual" hub (which is really good quality).

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 11 2018 8:41am
by madin88
district9prawn wrote:
Aug 05 2018 7:04am
madin88 wrote:
Aug 05 2018 4:53am
Do you have a link to the controller?
https://github.com/TechAUmNu/A200S
Uses 100v 1.5mohm mosfets but current sense ICs are limited to 75v absolute max. So 16s or below.
Are you the developer of this VESC?
This would be for sure a great controller for such sort of motors or generally high power RC motors, but for my part i would prefer a controller unit with display (and BMS).
I am used to the comfort of the Adaptto system (i can use a 48V PSU or any other >24V DC source for charging, on the fly programming..) and don't want to go back in terms of that. The VasiliSK unit looks promising and from Adaptto there should be also something new available, at least in the distant future.
Compoundbike wrote:
Aug 07 2018 7:29am
That`s Crazy what is your Battery ?
20s12p Samsung 25R. It was built 4 years ago and now has around 3500km "on the back"

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Ohbse wrote:
Aug 06 2018 11:31pm
I gave up on my Adaptto after being a very vocal supporter... too many un-explainable issues similar to your experience. I blew two mini-e, one mid-e and two max-e, now all are broken and I have given up on factory support.

I would highly recommend checking out the Mobipus controllers... I've been running a 72200 for some time and it's fantastic. You should be able to run 200a battery, 350 phase with great reliability. That should easily surpass the hub motor in every regard :)
Thats sad to hear. They did charge so much for the controllers and than they suddenly discontinued with the development or software improvements on all models. The latest FW is still RC9G4 which seems to be some kind of beta..
It would be nice if they would sort out at least the problems with the throttle pumping and inefficient motor control due to non-optimal PWR_timing.
An automatic adjustment based on battey voltage with much finer resolution of the setting values probably would do the trick (as i do it now by hands in three steps).

Do you know the minimum allowed motor inductance for the 72200 Mobipus? ASI for instance recommends to not use motors with less than 60µH.

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 11 2018 11:48am
by Compoundbike
Cool.. i have my own CNC Mill now, but a bit clueless on creating such a project. :)

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 16 2018 1:21pm
by ecross
Ohbse wrote:
Aug 06 2018 11:31pm
I gave up on my Adaptto after being a very vocal supporter... too many un-explainable issues similar to your experience. I blew two mini-e, one mid-e and two max-e, now all are broken and I have given up on factory support.

I would highly recommend checking out the Mobipus controllers... I've been running a 72200 for some time and it's fantastic. You should be able to run 200a battery, 350 phase with great reliability. That should easily surpass the hub motor in every regard :)
I also give up on my Adaptto after some "items" with factory support. Never, Never Adaptto.

Please send more infos from your Mobipus Controller!

BR

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 19 2018 7:20am
by larsb
I blew one midi-E, got it repaired, blew it again in one month.. Don't get much for quality with Adaptto. :wink:

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 19 2018 9:07am
by madin88
larsb wrote:
Aug 19 2018 7:20am
I blew one midi-E, got it repaired, blew it again in one month.. Don't get much for quality with Adaptto. :wink:
Do you know what caused it to blew or in which situation it gave up?

In russia board i read somewhere that the driver boards could overheat and make the FET's switching crazy, which would also expalain why some people blew the controller unexpected during charge..
There are different versions of driver boards which had been used. I know about DRV5, DRV6 and the early ones had no number, but all look different.

An odd thing is the shunt in the supply line which is just a large copper bus bar (precision resistor as it should be). That means the power readings can be way off depending on the temperature (i noticed +-5% or more when i was calibrating it during charge).
Furthermore i wonder how the phase currents are measured on those controllers as there are no shunts or hall sensors which would be necessary for that. I don't know of any modern controller which does not have this.

----

Now i am on the buyer list of the 12F Vasili Controller unit. With 120A batt and 150A phase (200A for 10sec regarding specs) it should be very close to the Midi-E and Vasili feels confident that it should work well together with this motor.
The segmented magnets for the rotor mod (for lowering the eddy losses) are ordered. Stock ones are N38UH grade regarding Neumotor and i decided to go with N45SH to get out more torque per amps. The kT should be than about 8% higher as the flux will increase from 1,24 Tesla to 1,35 Tesla.

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 19 2018 9:26am
by district9prawn
I'm surprised that the controller has no way to measure phase current given the price and sophistication of the overall system.

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 19 2018 9:52am
by madin88
district9prawn wrote:
Aug 19 2018 9:26am
I'm surprised that the controller has no way to measure phase current given the price and sophistication of the overall system.
Of course they must have some kind of method to take control over the phase currents. From what i know it could be also done via Rds on of the FET's (voltage drop over FET's), or PWM duty cycle, but those methods are known to be not that accurate.

The copper bus bar used as shunt for measuring the battery current definitely isn't optimal as the resistance varies way to much with temperature.

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 19 2018 9:59am
by macribs
Swapping out the stock shunt for a custom shunt that is liquid cooled should take care of that fluctuating reading? I guess it will be possible to manually set the correct resistance of the shunt in the software so if the new liquid cooled shunt has different reading it will be possible to correct in settings?

And while at it add a cooling block to the controller as well to ensure FET's are getting best possible working conditions. Maybe this can prolong the lifespan of those Adappto controllers. It is sad to read how many people struggles with short lifespan and troubles with their Adaptto, and no help from the company.

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 19 2018 10:25am
by larsb
madin88 wrote:
Aug 19 2018 9:07am
larsb wrote:
Aug 19 2018 7:20am
I blew one midi-E, got it repaired, blew it again in one month.. Don't get much for quality with Adaptto. :wink:
Do you know what caused it to blew or in which situation it gave up?
In my Adaptto case it was water damage after a short time, even though they had IP65 rating on the controller.

I had a long discussion with adaptto about getting a new controller as warranty replacement. Off course the whole controller will be damaged if you get salt water inside (road salt).

Instead they refused and repaired the driver boards. It broke again in one month and i decided that was the end of my Adaptto use.

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 19 2018 6:24pm
by Ohbse
madin88 wrote:
Aug 19 2018 9:07am
Do you know what caused it to blew or in which situation it gave up?

In russia board i read somewhere that the driver boards could overheat and make the FET's switching crazy, which would also expalain why some people blew the controller unexpected during charge..
There are different versions of driver boards which had been used. I know about DRV5, DRV6 and the early ones had no number, but all look different.

----

Now i am on the buyer list of the 12F Vasili Controller unit. With 120A batt and 150A phase (200A for 10sec regarding specs) it should be very close to the Midi-E and Vasili feels confident that it should work well together with this motor.
The segmented magnets for the rotor mod (for lowering the eddy losses) are ordered. Stock ones are N38UH grade regarding Neumotor and i decided to go with N45SH to get out more torque per amps. The kT should be than about 8% higher as the flux will increase from 1,24 Tesla to 1,35 Tesla.
I've had Adaptto's fail while charging, while regen braking, under power (that one was actually justified as I was pushing an unlocked mini-e well beyond its rating). My most annoying experience was on a Max-e. Bike was turned on, stationary, not charging in my lounge. As I walked up to the bike (but before even touching it) there was a huge bang and arc flash and it blew the breaker. FETs had all exploded. Controller sounded like it was full of gravel from all the shrapnel after I removed it from the bike. Had been on there for a couple of weeks without issue prior to its spontaneous combustion.

The Vasili controllers look great, definitely very interesting option - still seems like it's not quite enough controller for your potential performance. I have been running the Mobipus at ~375 phase amps/150a battery every day for over a year now, through rain etc with zero issues.

Re: Neumotor 8057/75 middrive project, belt drive, adding halls, 10kW+

Posted: Aug 20 2018 6:39am
by madin88
macribs wrote:
Aug 19 2018 9:59am
Swapping out the stock shunt for a custom shunt that is liquid cooled should take care of that fluctuating reading? I guess it will be possible to manually set the correct resistance of the shunt in the software so if the new liquid cooled shunt has different reading it will be possible to correct in settings?
:lol:

it would be already good enough to use a true shunt resistor. they usually have 1% tolerance within a wide temperature range :wink:

Ohbse wrote:
Aug 19 2018 6:24pm
The Vasili controllers look great, definitely very interesting option - still seems like it's not quite enough controller for your potential performance. I have been running the Mobipus at ~375 phase amps/150a battery every day for over a year now, through rain etc with zero issues.
what is the max ERPM the mobipus can do, and do you know if they have a minimum motor inductance limit?

I don't know how far this motor AND and generally the belt drive with the small 18T driver puelly can be pushed, but yes i would like to try out 375A phase current :twisted:
However, at those amps almost 3500W are turned into heat (24 Ohm phase to phase), and this little motor only has 2,8kg!!!
I think it would overheat in just a few seconds if the belt does not tear off before..

The reason i went with this motor was i had VERY limited space on the swingarm, and with it's dimensions of less than 100x100mm the Neu 8057 certainly is one of the best choices (all other important things included like the sine-wave BEMF, quite low ERPM, inductance, big shaft and bearings etc).

If space (and weight) is no issue, it would make more sense to use a physically larger motor like one of the new QS 2000 or 3000W mid-motors, or a Denzel 7500.
More mass would mean longer time before overheating, and with more torque on the shaft a larger driver pulley could be used. Both things would make the entire drive system suitable for providing more punch at take off.
22T is the min recommended tooth count regarding Gates and mine is 18T.