TSDZ2 mid drive with 860C, 850C or SW102 displays only -- Flexible OpenSource firmware (Casainho code only)

Electric Motors and Controllers
buba   10 kW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by buba » Aug 19 2019 10:56am

eyebyesickle wrote:
Aug 18 2019 2:55am
Forgive me for spamming across the TSDZ2 threads guys, but I am really excited about this, and really put a lot of work in. No no no, nothing compared to anyone programming etc... but it is all relative, and I am extremely challenged sometimes :roll: :lol: so... I see this as a major thing, bringing the availability of the OSF TSDZ2 to a much wider range of people who would not even be able to think about cracking a 850C open. Anyway, let me know if anything looks like it needs correcting etc - I hope everything is good, took me long enough :shock:
The work you have done to enable this is nothing other than great! Have nothing other to say than very nicely done and I know the whole community is very thankful!

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by jimmyfergus » Aug 19 2019 11:12am

buba wrote:
Aug 19 2019 10:00am
jimmyfergus wrote:
Aug 17 2019 4:08pm
...However, couldn't / shouldn't [eMTB] be just an filter on the other modes?...
But it would take considerable more space and complexity to do it in that form and still keep the power calculation (power curve).
...

EDIT: Again, am sorry for the lacking value in my reply.
Makes sense - and you absolutely have nothing to apologize for. You guys are already hugely responsive and a day or two's absence needs no apologies, especially for fielding random ideas!

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by elem » Aug 19 2019 11:28am

Yes walk assist is usefull but soo hard to use, a way i wanted to use is putting an interuptor in // on the down button,
in fact it was for friend who use yamaha motor an the button is badly than the lcd3 one,

one of the best is witch used on bosh motor ... you validate the walk assit mode with a special button and after only put the down buton, no delay to start assist wlaking, no delay if you lose the buton one second it come as soon as you put your fonger on the down buton .
RockRider 9.1 TSDZ2 open source firmware .

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by elem » Aug 19 2019 11:34am

if the conbinaison DOWN+POWER isn't in use anymore, we could use this combinaison to activate walk assit mode and after only push the down buton ?

for those using a display with more than 3 button it will easy to implemente
RockRider 9.1 TSDZ2 open source firmware .

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by Rydon » Aug 19 2019 3:56pm

buba wrote:
Aug 16 2019 5:47pm
Update on the eMTB sensitivity poll:

12.5 % uses sensitivity 1
62.5 % uses sensitivity 4
25.0 % uses sensitivity 6

Everyone has so far picked values below 7. I am confirming that eMTB will be updated in one way or another. I have already ideas on how to improve it. Will try to increase the number of sensitivity values as well so everyone can pick a value that works for them.
Sorry to be late to the party but some of our handcycle riders would like to be higher than 8.

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by mctubster » Aug 19 2019 6:09pm

Rydon wrote:
Aug 19 2019 3:56pm
buba wrote:
Aug 16 2019 5:47pm
Update on the eMTB sensitivity poll:

12.5 % uses sensitivity 1
62.5 % uses sensitivity 4
25.0 % uses sensitivity 6

Everyone has so far picked values below 7. I am confirming that eMTB will be updated in one way or another. I have already ideas on how to improve it. Will try to increase the number of sensitivity values as well so everyone can pick a value that works for them.
Sorry to be late to the party but some of our handcycle riders would like to be higher than 8.
At an exponent 2 and above (level8) there is going to be little difference between emtb and torque assist with a higher multiplier?

eMTB is useful to supplement the human power curve at low rpm and then back off power delivery as the RPM goes up, human power goes up and human torque goes down. But at higher levels of this exponent you are hitting against the motors max continuous power delivery anyway so not really getting a nuanced benefit? ie the motor is simply outputting to its current / power limits at almost all times!

Buba is there an option to make the exponent user configurable rather than having a fixed table?

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by bikelpl » Aug 20 2019 2:45am

(edited: i made mistake becouse i used 18 rear chainring instead of 21 tooth)
Hello guys!
At first i'd like to thank to everybody who is involved in developing this great OpenFirmware!
I have mounted TSDZ2+KT LCD3 with OpenFirmware in my wifes eMTB bike and it is doing really really well!

I want to share with You with two things:

1. The way I program my 850C LCD without fully opening it (i'm using pogo pins)


2. Chart of Power vs Torque that we have measured on DYNO (inertial) with using of thumb throttle
(we can notice that we have about 67% of power efficency comparing to data shown on LCD)
(i'm not an expert in such kind of calculations so if You have find any error/mistake - let me know)

Image

Motor was TSDZ2 48V
Battery was 13S 48V fully charged
MAX current on LCD was set to 17A
MAX power on LCD was set to 850W
Front chainring was 42 tooth
Rear chainring was 18 tooth
(so ratio was 2,3 from motor to wheel)
Rear wheel circunference was 2095mm

You can find all the files here:
(original charts from dyno, spreadsheet)
http://bikel.pl/pliki/TSDZ2/POWER/

And here You can watch measurement process:
https://youtu.be/Vom-ikcaQCA?t=1368


And this is my video where I show my wife's bicycle with TSDZ2:
https://youtu.be/a5TcRuJLW4Y

MathiasP   1 µW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by MathiasP » Aug 20 2019 4:52am

bikelpl wrote:
Aug 20 2019 2:45am
(edited: i made mistake becouse i used 18 rear chainring instead of 21 tooth)
Hello guys!
At first i'd like to thank to everybody who is involved in developing this great OpenFirmware!
I have mounted TSDZ2+KT LCD3 with OpenFirmware in my wifes eMTB bike and it is doing really really well!

I want to share with You with two things:

1. The way I program my 850C LCD without fully opening it (i'm using pogo pins)


2. Chart of Power vs Torque that we have measured on DYNO (inertial) with using of thumb throttle
(we can notice that we have about 67% of power efficency comparing to data shown on LCD)
(i'm not an expert in such kind of calculations so if You have find any error/mistake - let me know)

Image

Motor was TSDZ2 48V
Battery was 13S 48V fully charged
MAX current on LCD was set to 17A
MAX power on LCD was set to 850W
Front chainring was 42 tooth
Rear chainring was 18 tooth
(so ratio was 2,3 from motor to wheel)
Rear wheel circunference was 2095mm

You can find all the files here:
(original charts from dyno, spreadsheet)
http://bikel.pl/pliki/TSDZ2/POWER/

And here You can watch measurement process:
https://youtu.be/Vom-ikcaQCA?t=1368


And this is my video where I show my wife's bicycle with TSDZ2:
https://youtu.be/a5TcRuJLW4Y
Very interesting youtube channel. Too bad I don't understand the language.
Think you would get a lot more viewers if you spoke English. :-)

casainho   10 GW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by casainho » Aug 20 2019 9:07am

Bafang 850C display new firmware version: v0.4.0

News:

- build for manufacturer bootloader (no more need to open the display and solder the programming wires)
- added initial screen showing project name, address and firmware version
- added display automatic power off

Next I need to update wiki with the information to install our firmware without the need to open the 850C display.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by casainho » Aug 20 2019 9:33am

elem wrote:
Aug 19 2019 5:16am
Simplified wiki ( in french ) V.019 based : https://elementaire01.blogspot.com/2019 ... tsdz2.html
Elem, personally I don't like localized forum. For instance, my main language is not English but I use Google translator when I need and so I can write and read AND FIND information on google. There are forums for Russian, German, French, Italian, Portuguese, etc but I can't find the information there when I search on Google -- I think is strategic to be in "simplified EN" only and then help users to use google translator and learn the "simplified EN".

eyebyesickle wrote:
Aug 19 2019 10:43am
Per SW102 manufacturer:
- nRF51422 instead of the nRF51822—OK
- ANT-OK
- RTC clock—no space for the RTC chip
- More flash memory (ANT needs more room, and we have alot of code to write) current room is 256K, no space for expand

This is regardless of quantity (well, meaning doesn't matter if we buy more, they can't do certain upgrades....but they won't even make the changes that were OK'd unless we get quite a few of course)
So, seems the only changing they can do is: nRF51422 exchange to nRF51822 (both seem to be pin compatible so would be a mater to change one by the other and this change would add only the ANT). This means they do not want to make any big change to the product, like a change of the electronic board and plastic enclosure. Probably manufacture do not want to develop a new version and maybe this SW102 will remain on the market for next years (maybe 5 years at least??) and that is good news for us, since we need a stable hardware because we can't be developing a new firmware for a new product, every 1 year.

I don't use ANT sensors so I can't understand potential value on having ANT on SW102. Considering this and that no other changes can be done on SW102, I would keep as it is.

bikelpl wrote:
Aug 20 2019 2:45am
1. The way I program my 850C LCD without fully opening it (i'm using pogo pins)
Good idea but thanks to the efforts of many, we can now flash our firmware without the need to open or cut a hole on the 850C display. (I need to update the wiki....)
bikelpl wrote:
Aug 20 2019 2:45am
2. Chart of Power vs Torque that we have measured on DYNO (inertial) with using of thumb throttle
(we can notice that we have about 67% of power efficency comparing to data shown on LCD)
(i'm not an expert in such kind of calculations so if You have find any error/mistake - let me know)
Thanks for sharing. I don't know what we will do with this data.
- TSDZ2 FAQ: issues and repairs, etc
- TSDZ2 OpenSource firmware

Developer of the Flexible OpenSource firmware for EBikes: TSDZ2 mid drive motor, KT motor controllers and displays: Bafang 850C color, SW102 Bluetooth and KT-LCD3.

If you like my work, please consider making a donation. I am being using the donations to buy needed resources for my developments. My paypal: casainho AT gmail.com.

geeksville   10 W

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by geeksville » Aug 20 2019 11:25am

> I don't use ANT sensors so I can't understand potential value on having ANT on SW102. Considering this and that no other changes can be done on SW102, I would keep as it is.

I agree. the ANT CPU is a nice plus if they are doing a biggish build (because it would someday allow the SW102 to serve as a power meter (human pedal input) to Garmin and then in turn to Strava - for tracking fitness/effort). Also allows heart rate to be displayed on the SW102 if user wants. And if the user is using the slick radar bike light for commuting it could show vehicle position as well.

But I don't think it is a major feature. If they are doing any incremental spin of this product though, I'd say "if it fits your business plan, the super small increase in COGS (about $0.32 according to digikey) probably provides you with with >$0.32 in features"

buba   10 kW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by buba » Aug 20 2019 1:54pm

elem wrote:
Aug 19 2019 11:28am
Yes walk assist is usefull but soo hard to use, a way i wanted to use is putting an interuptor in // on the down button,
in fact it was for friend who use yamaha motor an the button is badly than the lcd3 one,

one of the best is witch used on bosh motor ... you validate the walk assit mode with a special button and after only put the down buton, no delay to start assist wlaking, no delay if you lose the buton one second it come as soon as you put your fonger on the down buton .
elem wrote:
Aug 19 2019 11:34am
if the conbinaison DOWN+POWER isn't in use anymore, we could use this combinaison to activate walk assit mode and after only push the down buton ?

for those using a display with more than 3 button it will easy to implemente
It is an interesting suggestion!

DOWN+POWER is not available but I understand what you mean and it gave me some ideas. I will see what I can do to improve Walk Assist in some way or another!

buba   10 kW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by buba » Aug 20 2019 1:55pm

Rydon wrote:
Aug 19 2019 3:56pm
buba wrote:
Aug 16 2019 5:47pm
Update on the eMTB sensitivity poll:

12.5 % uses sensitivity 1
62.5 % uses sensitivity 4
25.0 % uses sensitivity 6

Everyone has so far picked values below 7. I am confirming that eMTB will be updated in one way or another. I have already ideas on how to improve it. Will try to increase the number of sensitivity values as well so everyone can pick a value that works for them.
Sorry to be late to the party but some of our handcycle riders would like to be higher than 8.
Will have that in consideration and thank you for letting me know!

buba   10 kW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by buba » Aug 20 2019 2:14pm

mctubster wrote:
Aug 19 2019 6:09pm
Rydon wrote:
Aug 19 2019 3:56pm
buba wrote:
Aug 16 2019 5:47pm
Update on the eMTB sensitivity poll:

12.5 % uses sensitivity 1
62.5 % uses sensitivity 4
25.0 % uses sensitivity 6

Everyone has so far picked values below 7. I am confirming that eMTB will be updated in one way or another. I have already ideas on how to improve it. Will try to increase the number of sensitivity values as well so everyone can pick a value that works for them.
Sorry to be late to the party but some of our handcycle riders would like to be higher than 8.
At an exponent 2 and above (level8) there is going to be little difference between emtb and torque assist with a higher multiplier?
A sufficiently high Torque Assist multiplier could be approximated to an exponent of 2 and above if we have some defined and closed range with limits, such as in our use case. So you are basically right but it depends!

Will try to improve the functions so we have more granularity and a better response. This will benefit handcycle riders and all other users as well.


mctubster wrote:
Aug 19 2019 6:09pm
eMTB is useful to supplement the human power curve at low rpm and then back off power delivery as the RPM goes up, human power goes up and human torque goes down. But at higher levels of this exponent you are hitting against the motors max continuous power delivery anyway so not really getting a nuanced benefit? ie the motor is simply outputting to its current / power limits at almost all times!

Buba is there an option to make the exponent user configurable rather than having a fixed table?
Nothing to add to your analysis on eMTB. Spot on and nice to read! As I said, I will try to improve the functions so they will hopefully be more responsive and users can choose the exponent with higher resolution -> More sensitivity values with better tables.

It is not possible to have the exponent user configurable. This is something I tried to do efficiently but no matter how you do it, it will take a lot of programming space. I am sorry if you feel this is suboptimal! We are dealing with power functions and, sadly, those need to be calculated differently compared to simple multiplication operations.

Will do my best to improve everything!
Last edited by buba on Aug 20 2019 2:38pm, edited 1 time in total.

buba   10 kW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by buba » Aug 20 2019 2:35pm

bikelpl wrote:
Aug 20 2019 2:45am
(edited: i made mistake becouse i used 18 rear chainring instead of 21 tooth)
Hello guys!
At first i'd like to thank to everybody who is involved in developing this great OpenFirmware!
I have mounted TSDZ2+KT LCD3 with OpenFirmware in my wifes eMTB bike and it is doing really really well!

2. Chart of Power vs Torque that we have measured on DYNO (inertial) with using of thumb throttle
(we can notice that we have about 67% of power efficency comparing to data shown on LCD)
(i'm not an expert in such kind of calculations so if You have find any error/mistake - let me know)

Image

Motor was TSDZ2 48V
Battery was 13S 48V fully charged
MAX current on LCD was set to 17A
MAX power on LCD was set to 850W
Front chainring was 42 tooth
Rear chainring was 18 tooth
(so ratio was 2,3 from motor to wheel)
Rear wheel circunference was 2095mm

You can find all the files here:
(original charts from dyno, spreadsheet)
http://bikel.pl/pliki/TSDZ2/POWER/

And here You can watch measurement process:
https://youtu.be/Vom-ikcaQCA?t=1368


And this is my video where I show my wife's bicycle with TSDZ2:
https://youtu.be/a5TcRuJLW4Y
That is AWESOME and very cool of you to test and share with us. I have not calculated nor used any of the data but I will look at it out of pure curiosity and also make a mental note for the future :wink:

I know this dyno is calibrated for power levels well above 1 kW but still interesting to see how the TSDZ2 performs. This could be used to validate the human power measurement (after proper torque calibration) and also the future motor controller tuning!

Regardless, cool to see! :bolt:

EDIT: It would also be interesting to compare how much better the open source firmware is compared to the original firmware.
Last edited by buba on Aug 20 2019 5:42pm, edited 5 times in total.

buba   10 kW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by buba » Aug 20 2019 2:56pm

Final update on the eMTB Sensitivity Survey!

When extrapolating the data we seem to have a normal distribution and the most common sensitivity value is 4!
normalDistribution.png
normalDistribution.png (40.76 KiB) Viewed 640 times
Next eMTB implementation will be much better and have an increased resolution. Have considered all the user feedback and there will be no compromises and only improvements. More info coming in the next days!

andrea_104kg   100 W

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by andrea_104kg » Aug 20 2019 3:49pm

Sorry if I insist but I am not clear where you want to arrive with emtb. If you want a progressive level the power mode is already perfect, anyone can try it.
Just set a high multiplier and you can easily get from a few watts to the maximum. Just look at the wattmeter and you can see the value rise in a perfectly progressive way.
So I don't understand what emtb could do.
To make a comparison I took the turbo levo and I put the maximum level and I tried if there was the same progression from a few watts at most. There is not! The turbo levo at the maximum level starts from around 350w and then rises, in a rather abrupt manner. While on the tsdz2 you can hardly press the pedals to not change level and use a few watts, on the turbo levo you can't go slowly to the maximum level, you need to decrease level.
A consideration on mechanics. A very progressive level reduces the need to change gear ratio. For the tsdz2 this can be negative. Not using the gearbox can be a drain on the mechanical part that is not very solid on the tsdz2. In the same way the engine is urged not to run at an optimal speed with consequent rapid heating. So I don't think emtb is the solution to many problems.
If, on the other hand, you want to get something different with emtb, please explain to me :-(

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elem   100 W

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by elem » Aug 20 2019 4:40pm

andrea_104kg wrote:
Aug 20 2019 3:49pm
Sorry if I insist but I am not clear where you want to arrive with emtb. If you want a progressive level the power mode is already perfect, anyone can try it.
Just set a high multiplier and you can easily get from a few watts to the maximum. Just look at the wattmeter and you can see the value rise in a perfectly progressive way.
So I don't understand what emtb could do.
To make a comparison I took the turbo levo and I put the maximum level and I tried if there was the same progression from a few watts at most. There is not! The turbo levo at the maximum level starts from around 350w and then rises, in a rather abrupt manner. While on the tsdz2 you can hardly press the pedals to not change level and use a few watts, on the turbo levo you can't go slowly to the maximum level, you need to decrease level.
A consideration on mechanics. A very progressive level reduces the need to change gear ratio. For the tsdz2 this can be negative. Not using the gearbox can be a drain on the mechanical part that is not very solid on the tsdz2. In the same way the engine is urged not to run at an optimal speed with consequent rapid heating. So I don't think emtb is the solution to many problems.
If, on the other hand, you want to get something different with emtb, please explain to me :-(
I haven t tested eMTb'OSF for the moment, what i have read about bosh'EMTB on french forum is that many ppl love it, some will consume more watt than other but the fate is ; using eMTB in mountain biking is the best way to be only focusing the technique and don t care about the assist .

It depend many with how the man is able to use the bike, i m 58 year old, 179 m size and 64 kgrs weight, i know that it will be very different for other users, in a french forum someone using a TSDZ2 with about the same weight of you said that he haven t broken blue nylon gear or other part but the main axle have take some movment, and he said he will trash it ( the entire mid drive ) .

TSDZ2 is a really small engine ( the motor itself, not the mid drive ) smaller than shimano/bosh ( witch are the smaller in fact ) .
it work fine if you know it's limitation .

don t care about i said concerning weight, it's not an offense i mean, just considere that it s a parameter that must cause some different issues/experiment in the use of this mid drive witch came exelent with the use of OSF ...

i made a " raid " today, 72 km and 1680 D+ with my DIY batterie and OSF V0.19 just to improve myself and the motor, using all offroad possible , battery consumed was 572Wh and the motor ran perfectly, was using about 200w in 7% road, more mwhen it s was offrod with rock ...https://www.strava.com/activities/2635056843

i ride often with some friend using bafang/yamaha even bosh bike, i was never out off battery even when i used a small 360 wh battery, it depend how you are able to use your leg and also the knowing of the use of the energy used in the moteur .

TSDZ2 run perfectly when you r able to maintain about 70 human rpm and limit your assit to the minimum necessary .

eMTb is perfect when you don t care about the use of the battery and want to focuse the driving of you r bike .

i m certain the eMTB developed in the OSf wil be perfect and will test it asp .
Somewhere in 06.jpg
Somewhere in 06.jpg (309.58 KiB) Viewed 610 times
RockRider 9.1 TSDZ2 open source firmware .

buba   10 kW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by buba » Aug 20 2019 5:12pm

andrea_104kg wrote:
Aug 20 2019 3:49pm
Sorry if I insist but I am not clear where you want to arrive with emtb. If you want a progressive level the power mode is already perfect, anyone can try it.
Just set a high multiplier and you can easily get from a few watts to the maximum. Just look at the wattmeter and you can see the value rise in a perfectly progressive way.
So I don't understand what emtb could do.
To make a comparison I took the turbo levo and I put the maximum level and I tried if there was the same progression from a few watts at most. There is not! The turbo levo at the maximum level starts from around 350w and then rises, in a rather abrupt manner. While on the tsdz2 you can hardly press the pedals to not change level and use a few watts, on the turbo levo you can't go slowly to the maximum level, you need to decrease level.
A consideration on mechanics. A very progressive level reduces the need to change gear ratio. For the tsdz2 this can be negative. Not using the gearbox can be a drain on the mechanical part that is not very solid on the tsdz2. In the same way the engine is urged not to run at an optimal speed with consequent rapid heating. So I don't think emtb is the solution to many problems.
If, on the other hand, you want to get something different with emtb, please explain to me :-(
I am glad that you are so satisfied with Power Assist and how it feels! I understand that you prefer the feeling over the other modes. Therefore, you wish to know why there is a need for eMTB at all. But I think it is best that other users explain why they like eMTB Assist. And also how, when and where they use it. I think their words would add more value than me writing a response.

I always try to do my best to maximize the experience for as many as possible. This means working on all kind of improvements. Sometimes I implement functions and features I think have some value. Other times I listen to suggestions and feedback. eMTB falls in the latter category and was originally suggested to me. Many seemed excited to try it out as it had received good reviews on many different systems.

So this is why I added it in the 0.20.0 for the TSDZ2.

There is a discrepancy between all TSDZ2 units and how accurate the torque sensor is. Some users feel eMTB improves the experience as it offsets the aforementioned discrepancy but others do not feel it adds anything.

Then there is the difference between users and how they like to be assisted. The fact is that I do not know of one single riding mode that could replace all riding modes. So the best thing is to offer several options so everyone can play around and find a setup that fits their personal preference and particular hardware.

buba   10 kW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by buba » Aug 20 2019 5:27pm

elem wrote:
Aug 20 2019 4:40pm
I haven t tested eMTb'OSF for the moment, what i have read about bosh'EMTB on french forum is that many ppl love it, some will consume more watt than other but the fate is ; using eMTB in mountain biking is the best way to be only focusing the technique and don t care about the assist .

It depend many with how the man is able to use the bike, i m 58 year old, 179 m size and 64 kgrs weight, i know that it will be very different for other users, in a french forum someone using a TSDZ2 with about the same weight of you said that he haven t broken blue nylon gear or other part but the main axle have take some movment, and he said he will trash it ( the entire mid drive ) .

TSDZ2 is a really small engine ( the motor itself, not the mid drive ) smaller than shimano/bosh ( witch are the smaller in fact ) .
it work fine if you know it's limitation .

don t care about i said concerning weight, it's not an offense i mean, just considere that it s a parameter that must cause some different issues/experiment in the use of this mid drive witch came exelent with the use of OSF ...

i made a " raid " today, 72 km and 1680 D+ with my DIY batterie and OSF V0.19 just to improve myself and the motor, using all offroad possible , battery consumed was 572Wh and the motor ran perfectly, was using about 200w in 7% road, more mwhen it s was offrod with rock ...https://www.strava.com/activities/2635056843

i ride often with some friend using bafang/yamaha even bosh bike, i was never out off battery even when i used a small 360 wh battery, it depend how you are able to use your leg and also the knowing of the use of the energy used in the moteur .

TSDZ2 run perfectly when you r able to maintain about 70 human rpm and limit your assit to the minimum necessary .

eMTb is perfect when you don t care about the use of the battery and want to focuse the driving of you r bike .

i m certain the eMTB developed in the OSf wil be perfect and will test it asp .

Somewhere in 06.jpg
Great to hear your impressions and what you think! I will soon update eMTB so it should be better. So whenever you try eMTB I really hope you feel it adds to the experience! If it does not add to the experience, I hope you will let me know so we can try to improve it.

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elem   100 W

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by elem » Aug 20 2019 6:23pm

The first time i tested EMTb mode was when it was implemented in marcoq achievment using osf v0.19.

It was very hard to get power from the mode with the default parameter .

Soo i changed it a bit and now it s working good for me, in fact in the biginning of the curve i changed it to work like a power mode and ( from 0 to 150w i mean ) and after that it use the torque and the fixed parameter ( 1.1 for me ) and it work diferently than a pure power mode .

it was about the same when i tested a few torque mode from V0.20 OSF, very hard to get power, you had to push hardly on pedal to get power, to much for me, but it was not a good test because my 48V motor don t like exp mode and this was how i tried it .

i thinck that eMTb mode from marcoq was using a kind of torque mode for this mode and probably torque/eMTb mode need a full calibration of the torque sensor ...

I will make some tests with V0.20 asp and i ll be back to give impressions .

thancks to all sharing their own experience, have fun and " carpe diem " .
RockRider 9.1 TSDZ2 open source firmware .

vadda   100 mW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by vadda » Aug 20 2019 6:28pm

Hi,
it's possibile to have more filtered values in sub-field where it's show the istantaneous Amp absorbed and fill the First character with a symbol like "A" ?
I think it's a good thinks fill, where it's possibile, all the first character of any sub-field ti improve readibility.

Thanks

e3s   10 W

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by e3s » Aug 20 2019 6:31pm

Just to put it there: emtb can be developed with a target wattage. Example: I can push the bike with 100 watt without problem. I have a unit of assist. Another person can push with 200w in the legs without fatigue. He has the half assist. But we are making the same effort. If emtb mode can have a menu for some parameters, curve of the assist could be better. Just a cue to improve something in the mtb mode

jimmyfergus   100 mW

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by jimmyfergus » Aug 20 2019 6:39pm

andrea_104kg wrote:
Aug 20 2019 3:49pm
Sorry if I insist but I am not clear where you want to arrive with emtb. If you want a progressive level the power mode is already perfect, anyone can try it.
Just set a high multiplier and you can easily get from a few watts to the maximum. Just look at the wattmeter and you can see the value rise in a perfectly progressive way.
So I don't understand what emtb could do.
I think I want eMTB, though I haven't got to try it yet. This happens all the time:

I'm typically riding at level 3 (default 0.19 config) - it's often about right.

But on an easy section (flat, smooth, perhaps a slight downslope or tailwind) - I find the assist is more than I need; I'm spinning out or I'm actually having to hold back on my pedaling effort to prevent the motor from working, so I shift down to level 2 or 1.

But when I reach an upslope, I put more effort in at level 3, but it's not enough and I'm losing too much speed. I shift to level 4 or even 5 to get up the hill without losing too much speed or working harder than I want to.

eMTB should do this automatically. I don't find the linear power matching is quite right - I think exponential at a power >1 will actually give what I want. Perhaps if I'm putting in 50W I only want another 50W from the engine on an easy cruise, but putting in 200W I want 750W from the motor.

Now, it may be that part of my experience is related to the limitations of the torque sensor that's only really working for the first 30kg or whatever, and casainho's recent effort to give us a calibrated full-range torque sensor will reduce my need to change levels, but I the non-linear assist makes logical sense to me.

maximusdm   10 W

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Re: TSDZ2 mid drive -- Flexible OpenSource firmware for TongSheng TSDZ2 mid drive motor

Post by maximusdm » Aug 21 2019 3:27am

Hello,

I see that EMTB is raising a lot of debate because different users have different needs. I think it is impossible to please everyone.
Adding a menu just for configuring EMTB is not a good idea now due to memory limitation.

An idea is to use the EMTB mode as an option used in conjunction with the existing assist levels.
If the normal assist levels provide linear assistance on different angles, the EMTB would provide exponential assistance with more abrupt curves. This way we only need one new param and use the old ones. Hope his helps!

Regards!

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