TSDZ2 mid drive with 860C, 850C or SW102 displays only -- Flexible OpenSource firmware (Casainho code only)

[Rider2000]

Hi guys,

it is really nice to read the progress with the TSDZ2 programming. Especially the 850C support is great.

My question is: Is it also working with the new APT 860C Display ?

This would be really great.

I think I just answered you who asked this in the other thread, but for everyone's reference here:

I'm waiting on some 860c samples, and getting the code modifications needed for the OSF software. Will be passing on to OSF engineers... It is supposedly a very simple/minimal change in code from what I understand.

The good thing about the 860c is that it is much more visible in sunlight! Also has an extra button on the remote control button panel...

I think I already have a 860C but as 850C. Someone sent me one 850C because the image was inverted. This display is clearly different in the colors and also has a small light sensor under the LCD, as seen on the image. The 850C board has the place for that light sensor but it is not assembled. This new version of 850C has the light sensor assembled and the LCD is clear better in the color at least, I didn't take it to outside. But this version still have the same 3 buttons.

To be clear, our firmware already works perfectly on this 850C new version, so, I guess it will also work on the 860C expect that will miss the extra button number 4.

That's really good news Hopefully it will work without any trouble on the 860C Display.

I tested this Display since few weeks and I can say that it is really better than the the 850C in all points (even better then the Bafang DP-C18 in my opinion).

Looking foreward to test it with the TSDZ2 soon !

[casainho]

I tested this Display since few weeks and I can say that it is really better than the the 850C in all points (even better then the Bafang DP-C18 in my opinion).

Can you please make a list of the points and why on each point? Because this needs to go to the wiki, to the display comparison table, as 850C is substantially cheaper...

[Powerhour]

I’ve got no power to the motor regardless what I do..even after resetting to defaults I can’t get above 0W output. Does this sound like a bad controller? I did accidentally short some pins though blowing up the plug I’m hoping there are other potential things I can try before getting a replacement controller

[Dirkro]

I’ve got no power to the motor regardless what I do..even after resetting to defaults I can’t get above 0W output. Does this sound like a bad controller? I did accidentally short some pins though blowing up the plug I’m hoping there are other potential things I can try before getting a replacement controller

My first try would be:
Disconnect the batteries, swich on for discharging the system, replug batteries , swich on and dont touch the pedals for 5 seconds.

Second, please check Motor ands Batterie parameters in the setup,
Try to make a test drive with a few minutes with a intermediate support level.
I never found out why, but I had the case that the system took a while to get working, this happend only once,
I don't know why..
Try to swich on the Road mode and try out.

Then you have to look the advanced technical date (Setup Menue 11 at 0.20 Beta) to see if torque and cadence is detected

Good Luck

[Powerhour]

thank you. Yes in section 11 all variables show feedback. Advanced cadence calibration doesnt turn the wheel or anything either. I will play with it more with what you had suggested. thanks

[casainho]

thank you. Yes in section 11 all variables show feedback. Advanced cadence calibration doesnt turn the wheel or anything either. I will play with it more with what you had suggested. thanks

When the motor runs, you will see ERPS > 0. And PWM duty-cycle must be > 0 also, if not, them the issue is probably torque sensor or pas sensor, or any bad configuration.

[buba]

Thank you!

I have a really good 52 V battery (maintains high nominal voltage for a long time) with a 52 teeth crank on a 36 V motor. Custom made bike with minimal resistance and really good tires. Using E-MTB exclusively as it does work well with my torque sensor. Depending on gearing, battery, system and bike setup you should be able to get above 50 kph or 31 mph.

Cheers!

It seems you got the full options version ).

My bike is Mtb 14kg+ with no motor. I use city tires Schwalbe Energizer+ 47-622 on my 29er.
I use 48v battery in 48v motor with standard 42 chain ring and high cadence mode. So ratio 42 X 11.

How much power are you getting from the motor at 45kph + ?

Thanks,
Max.

Nice!

I have not logged the power at 45 kph and have no way to test right now. Sorry about that, Max! But if you have a sufficient gear ratio the following graphs should be a good approximation of the power required at 45 kph and flat ground. Note that the power required is highly dependent on bike, overall setup and environment.

funGraphs.png (67.42 KiB) Viewed 3117 times

[buba]

I’ve got no power to the motor regardless what I do..even after resetting to defaults I can’t get above 0W output. Does this sound like a bad controller? I did accidentally short some pins though blowing up the plug I’m hoping there are other potential things I can try before getting a replacement controller

Have you set the max battery current to an appropriate value?

Have you set the max power limit to an appropriate value?

Have you tested if Walk Assist works?

Have you enabled a riding mode?

Have you made sure that the cadence and torque sensor work through the menu?

I hope you do not need to get a replacement controller but if you have answered yes on all the questions above there might be a problem with the controller. Although, it is highly unlikely!

Best would be to do another reset and then take an extensive look through the configuration menu and confirm that you have set everything appropriately.

[Powerhour]

thank you. Yes in section 11 all variables show feedback. Advanced cadence calibration doesnt turn the wheel or anything either. I will play with it more with what you had suggested. thanks

When the motor runs, you will see ERPS > 0. And PWM duty-cycle must be > 0 also, if not, them the issue is probably torque sensor or pas sensor, or any bad configuration.

but the motor does not run, so I wouldnt see that data? also the motor doesnt turn even when setting up the automatic cadence, is this indicative of a problem?
thanks

[bynnek]

thank you. Yes in section 11 all variables show feedback. Advanced cadence calibration doesnt turn the wheel or anything either. I will play with it more with what you had suggested. thanks

When the motor runs, you will see ERPS > 0. And PWM duty-cycle must be > 0 also, if not, them the issue is probably torque sensor or pas sensor, or any bad configuration.

but the motor does not run, so I wouldnt see that data? also the motor doesnt turn even when setting up the automatic cadence, is this indicative of a problem?
thanks

Do you have a temperature sensor installed? If so, try disabling the temperature sensor, reboot and see if it works. I had wired my temperature sensor incorrectly and the bike thought it was overheating and wouldn't let the motor run.

[Powerhour]

Not yet no..and I don't have that wire setup for throttle or temperature. Walk assist should at least work anyways right ? Starting to think the controllers fried

[jeff.page.rides]

This is a video of my Hand-Cycle with the TSDZ2, THANKS for your help and support!

[casainho]

This is a video of my Hand-Cycle with the TSDZ2, THANKS for your help and support!

Hmmm, I think this is the video on you YouTube page:

[casainho]

This is a video of my Hand-Cycle with the TSDZ2, THANKS for your help and support!

Hmmm, I think this is the video on you YouTube page:

Really nice all the details about the brakes and so on...!!

100 miles in a day, 3 batteries, very nice and comfortable ebike you have to make that long rides

[jeff.page.rides]

I have a really good 52 V battery (maintains high nominal voltage for a long time) with a 52 teeth crank on a 36 V motor.

Cheers!

Buba, have you tried a 48V battery in comparison with your 52V as regards to cadence levels. My 48V set on standard numbers will peak out at about 90 - 95rpm before its starts to back the motor off. Is the 52Volt worth the extra batteries ( do you get any cadence speed gains ) or can I change the motor numbers in the advance setting to compensate.

Thanks for all your work.

Yes, I have tried everything from low 20s to high 50s in voltage. I highly recommend that you invest in voltage with the TSDZ2. The higher the better. There are no drawbacks except possible a higher purchase price.

If you already have a 48 V battery I would not recommend upgrading to a new battery. But when it is time to buy a new battery I do recommend you pick a 52 V battery.

You do get some extra cadence with a 52 V but it would be wise to install a 52 T chainring as well. A larger chainring will improve the gear ratio. The 52 V battery together with a 52 T chainring is a noticeable difference and is overall better for any bike setup.

Changing the advance number will have limited effect and can cause losses in efficiency. So if you need more assistance at speed I recommend a 52 V battery and a 52 T chainring.

In the future there will be some motor updates that will improve the assistance at high cadence levels. But the efficiency will suffer slightly whenever the motor rotates faster than nominal.

Thank you, Waynemarlow!

EDIT: Also, the 36 V motor is king!

Hey Buba, Is the 36 Volt motor with the 52 Volt battery King because it spins at a higher cadence or is there other reasons you like the 36 volt motor more than the 48 Volt motor?

[Waynemarlow]

Not replying for Buba, but I have both the 48volt and 36volt motors and have tried both on the same bike ( just replaced the motor and not the whole unit ).

The 36 volt on a 36 volt battery is a great motor for anybody on the road wanting to just commute at lower pace, that's what it was designed for.

The 48 volt unit on 48 volts has a mass of torque ( I think better than most commercial bikes ) but because of that torque, you end up simply running a cadence too high due to the way the motor assists ( the torque just accelerates the bike without you really realising it ) at lower cadence levels and once you get into that 80 rpm cadence level, the motor just starts to back off. You end up having to change to a lower gear in rapid succession to get the best out of the motor. Once you learn that, on road its probably not a bad option for the commuter who wants to get to work without having a sweat on, hence Buba's reference to a 52T front chain ring.

For off road and for active cyclists, 80rpm cadence is too low. the 36volt unit on 48 volts will willing pull into the 90's before it backs off which makes it a good compromise, less torque but torque spread over a wider cadence rpm which suits the off road cyclist who constantly has to range up and down in cadence. Its a good solution and puts it into the commercial off road ebike bracket.

As to 52volts well I'll leave that to Buba to respond to although I may well convert a battery over to try it as 52volts transforms the Bafung motor soonish.

[buba]

I have a really good 52 V battery (maintains high nominal voltage for a long time) with a 52 teeth crank on a 36 V motor.

Cheers!

Buba, have you tried a 48V battery in comparison with your 52V as regards to cadence levels. My 48V set on standard numbers will peak out at about 90 - 95rpm before its starts to back the motor off. Is the 52Volt worth the extra batteries ( do you get any cadence speed gains ) or can I change the motor numbers in the advance setting to compensate.

Thanks for all your work.

Yes, I have tried everything from low 20s to high 50s in voltage. I highly recommend that you invest in voltage with the TSDZ2. The higher the better. There are no drawbacks except possible a higher purchase price.

If you already have a 48 V battery I would not recommend upgrading to a new battery. But when it is time to buy a new battery I do recommend you pick a 52 V battery.

You do get some extra cadence with a 52 V but it would be wise to install a 52 T chainring as well. A larger chainring will improve the gear ratio. The 52 V battery together with a 52 T chainring is a noticeable difference and is overall better for any bike setup.

Changing the advance number will have limited effect and can cause losses in efficiency. So if you need more assistance at speed I recommend a 52 V battery and a 52 T chainring.

In the future there will be some motor updates that will improve the assistance at high cadence levels. But the efficiency will suffer slightly whenever the motor rotates faster than nominal.

Thank you, Waynemarlow!

EDIT: Also, the 36 V motor is king!

Hey Buba, Is the 36 Volt motor with the 52 Volt battery King because it spins at a higher cadence or is there other reasons you like the 36 volt motor more than the 48 Volt motor?

Jeff,

Really cool to see your setup! Looks really nice and I hope we can create an even better firmware to go together with that hardware!

As for the 36 V motor: I really like it because of several reasons. One of which is the higher cadence possible. The torque curve looks a bit different and it can overall assist in a wider operating range. In short, I like having the possibility to get more assistance and limit the system in software instead of being limited in hardware.

The battery is also very important. The goal is to have the highest voltage possible. In most cases, the highest nominal voltage battery safely used with the TSDZ2 is a 52 V battery. The watt-hours is what will get you the range but the voltage is what gives you the best experience.

But there are several parameters that can affect the experience. And it is always better to consider the system as a whole for each and every user and situation. A higher voltage battery at the same capacity usually weighs and costs more so there are compromises.

[jeff.page.rides]

Thanks, Waynemarlow & Buba,
52V battery 48V motor VS 52V battery 36V motor.
Please let me know if my understanding is correct or not?
52V battery 48V motor has more torque at low and mid cadence than the 36V motor and less torque at high cadence than the 36V motor? A more curved torque curve, starting out higher and staying higher threw mid cadence then dropping lower than the 36V at high cadence?
52V battery 36V motor has less torque than the 48V motor at low and mid cadence and more torque than the 48V motor at high cadence. A more flat torque curve that starts out with less torque at lower and mid cadence and ends up with more torque at a higher cadence than the 48V motor?
The reason I'm asking all these questions is that the coaster brake motors don't come in 48V anymore just 36V. A hand cyclist really needs that low-end & mid-range torque. My cadence is most comfortable between 70 and 80 if I ride below 60 it feels like I'm lugging the motor if I ride above 90 there is no torque, but I can only pedal as fast as 95 that's it and only 90 continuously. All 3 of my TSDZ2's are 48V and we can't buy 48V motors anymore. I'm wondering what affect it's going to have on those that we sale 36V coaster motors too for handcycles?
Thanks for your input.

[casainho]

All 3 of my TSDZ2's are 48V and we can't buy 48V motors anymore. I'm wondering what affect it's going to have on those that we sale 36V coaster motors too

I understand you are limited to do maintenance, but a possibility is to just exchange the 36V to 48V motor, since the motor controller and our firmware is just the same.

[mikec1953]

Odometer and trip meter reading zero with 850C_v0.5.0-beta.6. MPH now appears correct but both the SI and Imperial settings show MPH now. Just the opposite of the bug in the previous release. Also, in the smaller fields on the main screen (motor power, human power, speed, etc) the speed always reads Km regardless of whether Imperial or SI set.

[buba]

Not replying for Buba, but I have both the 48volt and 36volt motors and have tried both on the same bike ( just replaced the motor and not the whole unit ).

The 36 volt on a 36 volt battery is a great motor for anybody on the road wanting to just commute at lower pace, that's what it was designed for.

The 48 volt unit on 48 volts has a mass of torque ( I think better than most commercial bikes ) but because of that torque, you end up simply running a cadence too high due to the way the motor assists ( the torque just accelerates the bike without you really realising it ) at lower cadence levels and once you get into that 80 rpm cadence level, the motor just starts to back off. You end up having to change to a lower gear in rapid succession to get the best out of the motor. Once you learn that, on road its probably not a bad option for the commuter who wants to get to work without having a sweat on, hence Buba's reference to a 52T front chain ring.

For off road and for active cyclists, 80rpm cadence is too low. the 36volt unit on 48 volts will willing pull into the 90's before it backs off which makes it a good compromise, less torque but torque spread over a wider cadence rpm which suits the off road cyclist who constantly has to range up and down in cadence. Its a good solution and puts it into the commercial off road ebike bracket.

As to 52volts well I'll leave that to Buba to respond to although I may well convert a battery over to try it as 52volts transforms the Bafung motor soonish.

Let us quantify the difference between the motors:

Kv = RPM / Vp

Where Kv is the motor velocity constant, Rs is the rotational speed in RPM and Vp is the peak voltage.

So the Kv constant for the 48 V motor is 83.33 ≈ 4000 / 48. And the Kv constant for the 36 V motor is 111.11 ≈ 4000 / 36.

Using the Kv we can get the torque constant and thereby the relationship between current and torque:

T = 60 / 2 * pi * Kv

Where T is the torque, pi is pi and Kv is the previously mentioned motor velocity constant.

So the T constant for the 48 V motor is 0.115 ≈ 60 / 2 * pi * 83.33. And the T constant for the 36 V motor is 0.086 ≈ 60 / 2 * pi * 111.11.

So this means that due to the controller being limited to around 16 A we can get approximately 34 % more peak torque from the 48 V motor. But this extra torque quickly goes down to levels at or below the 36 V motor. It is only truly noticeable at startups and low range situations. The 36 V motor will provide more torque in a greater operating range and will quickly outperform the 48 V motor if using a higher voltage battery. I wanted to do a nice graph showing the difference but I think it is clear as is.

Clearly there are two different characteristics between the two motors. Choosing the right motor depends on several parameters, e.g., user preference, riding conditions and bike hardware.

[Waynemarlow]

Thanks for that calc.

Interesting

[buba]

Thanks for that calc.

Interesting

Thanks for giving good recommendations! I also find this very interesting!

Thanks, Waynemarlow & Buba,
52V battery 48V motor VS 52V battery 36V motor.
Please let me know if my understanding is correct or not?
52V battery 48V motor has more torque at low and mid cadence than the 36V motor and less torque at high cadence than the 36V motor? A more curved torque curve, starting out higher and staying higher threw mid cadence then dropping lower than the 36V at high cadence?

You got it! Basically you get more torque low cadence and less torque high cadence with the 48 V motor and a 52 V battery.

But note that I am talking about peak torque. That is to say the very maximum torque you can get at any given time. You are not pushing the system at peak torque all the time. Both motors can in most cases provide adequate torque when you want to start riding or when at low cadence situations.

52V battery 36V motor has less torque than the 48V motor at low and mid cadence and more torque than the 48V motor at high cadence. A more flat torque curve that starts out with less torque at lower and mid cadence and ends up with more torque at a higher cadence than the 48V motor?

Still got it! Basically you get more torque high cadence and less torque low cadence with the 36 V motor and a 52 V battery.

The reason I'm asking all these questions is that the coaster brake motors don't come in 48V anymore just 36V. A hand cyclist really needs that low-end & mid-range torque. My cadence is most comfortable between 70 and 80 if I ride below 60 it feels like I'm lugging the motor if I ride above 90 there is no torque, but I can only pedal as fast as 95 that's it and only 90 continuously. All 3 of my TSDZ2's are 48V and we can't buy 48V motors anymore. I'm wondering what affect it's going to have on those that we sale 36V coaster motors too for handcycles?
Thanks for your input.

I think that high voltage batteries and the 36 V motor will be the very best setup for high cadence applications. But it is always possible to switch to another motor if you want:

I understand you are limited to do maintenance, but a possibility is to just exchange the 36V to 48V motor, since the motor controller and our firmware is just the same.

[mctubster]

So this means that due to the controller being limited to around 16 A we can get approximately 34 % more peak torque from the 48 V motor. But this extra torque quickly goes down to levels at or below the 36 V motor. It is only truly noticeable at startups and low range situations. The 36 V motor will provide more torque in a greater operating range and will quickly outperform the 48 V motor if using a higher voltage battery. I wanted to do a nice graph showing the difference but I think it is clear as is.

Clearly there are two different characteristics between the two motors. Choosing the right motor depends on several parameters, e.g., user preference, riding conditions and bike hardware.

Back in the days when I had a 36V Bafang motor I bought this 1500W DC-DC Step-up Boost Converter 10-60V to 12-90V 30A https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32856109301.html

Primarily to keep the battery output voltage constant. I get back to AU in Jan, so will try this with the TSDZ2.

The great thing about these voltage boosters, is only the portion of the boosted voltage has losses attached to it, so they are pretty efficient (say 95%) or more. Will be interesting to see the efficiency boosting a 36V nominal battery to say 48V constant.

Cheers

[jeff.page.rides]

OK so at what cadence or RPM does the 36 Volt torque pass the 48V torque?
If possible I would love to see the 2 torque curves on the same graph showing at what RPM the 36V torque overcomes or passes the 48V torque and at what percentage they are more or less than each other.
I think knowing exactly what this is will help everyone decide whether they want a 48 Volt or 36 Volt motor?