Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

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ElectricGod   10 MW

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Aug 14 2018 1:41am

Tonight I got around to putting together halls for the motor. I had some 26 awg teflon wire, but compared to the halls, it's huge. I ordered some 30 awg teflon wire. That's about the smallest I can find. This just wont do. 26awg is as big as the hall.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Aug 30 2018 6:17pm

much smaller teflon wire finally arrived...

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by madin88 » Sep 06 2018 8:14am

ElectricGod wrote:
Jul 09 2018 11:35pm
Checked a few things.

Phase resistance: 57.6-57.7 mOhms.

Inductance: .2 to .21 uH
I guess you measured 0.2 mH, or 200µH
because 0.2 µH would be more the inductance of a shorting link then from a motor coil :wink:


Have you figured out where the hall sensors must be installed or how the solution of the manufacturer looks like?

I have seen the motor is wound in delta so the sensors need to be placed with a shift of 30° electrically opposed the directionof rotation.
This would mean you cannot place them between the teeth (or at least all of them).

http://www.bavaria-direct.co.za/scheme/common/#
you could take a look at those winding schemes from above link.
yours probably is wound as dLRK or dLRK evolution. it should not be hard to find out, and than you know where the sensors need to be placed
eg. sensor A with a 30° shift beside the start point of phase wire A, sensor B beside phase B and so on...
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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Sep 11 2018 6:19pm

madin88 wrote:
Sep 06 2018 8:14am
ElectricGod wrote:
Jul 09 2018 11:35pm
Checked a few things.

Phase resistance: 57.6-57.7 mOhms.

Inductance: .2 to .21 uH
I guess you measured 0.2 mH, or 200µH
because 0.2 µH would be more the inductance of a shorting link then from a motor coil :wink:


Have you figured out where the hall sensors must be installed or how the solution of the manufacturer looks like?

I have seen the motor is wound in delta so the sensors need to be placed with a shift of 30° electrically opposed the directionof rotation.
This would mean you cannot place them between the teeth (or at least all of them).

http://www.bavaria-direct.co.za/scheme/common/#
you could take a look at those winding schemes from above link.
yours probably is wound as dLRK or dLRK evolution. it should not be hard to find out, and than you know where the sensors need to be placed
eg. sensor A with a 30° shift beside the start point of phase wire A, sensor B beside phase B and so on...
Hi Madin...they use a board and the halls are inserted between the stators. Since the gap is so small the halls are back a good ways from the narrow gap between stator teeth. It's not ideal and I think the halls are too far back from the magnets.

I've had to move to another house all of a sudden so I've put aside just about everything I had going so I can move. Adding halls to this motor are one of them. I'll add those SMT halls between the stators...like I have in every other even numbered stator...wye or delta.

This is my thread on adding halls to motors. Admittedly, I initially did the AstroFlight 3220 wrong and later added halls correctly (between the stator teeth), but you get the idea. Everything I've ever done follows the below set of rules. I have several delta wired outrunners with the halls from the factory between the stator teeth and added a second set of halls to them.

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=84112

I have several outrunners and a couple of inrunners all wired delta. The halls are placed based on the tooth count, not something else and the motors work great. I follow this and it always works great.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 21 2018 3:21am

It has been a very long time since I did anything on this motor. Moving to a new house delayed everything. I've been in the new place a few months now and been slowly getting things organized. Finally I have had time to pull out this motor and start working on it again.

The first time around, I didn't take any pictures of the motor as I took it apart. Months and months ago I tapped 3 of the bottom holes for M10 so that I could hook the puller jaws on the screw heads. Pushing against the end of the shaft pushed off the bell until the skirt bearing slid loose and that pulled off the bottom of the bell. At that point I used 3 M5 screws and washers to hold the skirt bearing in place so I could hook on it to push against the motor shaft. There's just the magnet strength to push against so the lateral strain on the bearing is pretty small.

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Since I had the stator out, I thought a better picture of the RV-100 stator vs a C80100 stator would be good. As you can see, the RV-100 stator has a significantly larger diameter. I didn't take a picture of this, but the RV-100 stator is 5mm shorter that the C80100 stator.

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This is 28 awg wire and is way too large for soldering to these tiny halls.

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The halls are about 1mm x 1.5mm with legs that are maybe .2mm. I really needed the thinnest teflon wire I could find. As it turns out 32 awg is perfect for the job. Here's a few pics of soldering wires to those micro small hall legs. Good solder is the only thing to use here. Cheap solder would not have solidified nice and smooth like this or held such a tiny connection reliably.

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This is the halls all shrink wrapped and ready to install. They are a perfect fit in the gaps in the stator teeth. I'll use thermal glue to secure the halls in place. The halls will not have a to sit deep inside the stators like how Revolt installs them. They use 41F's which of course are too large for the gap between the stator teeth. The red wires will get spliced together and so will the black wires after all the halls are in place. The 3 signal wires are about 10" long. I'll heat shrink all the wires together before they exit the motor.

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Last edited by ElectricGod on Jan 14 2019 2:49pm, edited 4 times in total.

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by madin88 » Nov 22 2018 12:38pm

Pretty good soldering job on those small parts :thumb:

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 22 2018 10:27pm

madin88 wrote:
Nov 22 2018 12:38pm
Pretty good soldering job on those small parts :thumb:
Good solder, clean/small tip and 3X glasses made that possible.
Thanks

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 22 2018 10:43pm

I got the halls installed. Last time I installed halls in a motor, I used JBweld. That pretty well makes them permanent parts of the motor. I didn't want to do that again if I ever had a hall go bad. This time I secured them with thermal glue. It gets fairly hard, but can be picked away from the stator with out too much trouble. This makes it possible to replace a hall if or when one dies. It secures the halls sufficiently to keep them in place. I can tug on the hall wires and the halls don't move. It's hard to see in the images, but the top surface of each hall is flush with the stator face.

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I don't know how Revolt brings out the hall wires. The phase wires are a fairly snug fit in their holes. There was no spare room for the halls to come out. I picked the phase wire hole closest to the junction of the three halls and carefully nibbled away the aluminum until I could make this opening for the hall cable.

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A couple extra layers of heat shrink ought to protect those tiny wires from any abrasion and it all fits inside the skirt bearing. Some strategic placement of thermal glue and a few zip ties secure all the hall wires so nothing can move or rub.

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Last edited by ElectricGod on Jan 14 2019 2:51pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 22 2018 11:19pm

The motor comes with this completely useless base. If anything, it's a template so you can make your own motor base. All Revolt had to do is make it 1.5" larger diameter and that would do the trick for 90% of people. So that's next...make a proper base for the motor out of 1/4" 6061. I want to duplicate the screw hole placement the C80100 has so that I can drop this motor into the Currie scooter.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 31 2018 12:20pm

Too many projects...

Finally got around to getting the motor base made. Revolt doesn't give you any kind of options with the motor and they charge to make a universal base. I want this motor to fit in the same space as a C80100 outrunner. The 6 inner holes match up with the factory mounting holes. The 4 outer holes match up with the base on a C80100. I'll drill out the shaft hole later. The factory hole is 16mm...which is larger than needed. I'll make mine 13mm and just barely clear the shaft. The plate is 2"x2"

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 01 2019 2:06am

Finished this up tonight. I've bought some 3/8" 6061. To make the screws flush with the surface means the bottoms of the holes are 1mm thick. This 1/4" thick 6061 isn't really going to cut it.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 02 2019 11:46am

The 3/8" thick 6061 won't really cut it. Shaft length out the bottom of the motor is very limited. I can't shift the shaft downward without making the keyways for the bell longer. I don't have a way to machine the shaft. I've tried doing some basic milling on my drill press, but it has too much slop in it to be effective. I really want a better drill press! The simple solution is keep the motor base as close to the bottom of the motor as possible. I've figured out how to eliminate the spacer that came with the motor and still use 1/4" thick 6061. I'll need to make another motor base to resolve the couple of deficiencies in this one.

I'm not sure what happened, but my metal isn't square. I want to make it 2.5" per side instead of 2" for a bit more support at the corners. I have bought counter sunk 12.9 screws which will preserve a lot more metal in the base. Somehow a couple of my drilled holes got off center a little so I want to make another part that does not have any of these issues.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 17 2019 8:23pm

Well GRRR! New screws arrived today and I ordered countersunk heads and received socket head screws like I already had.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by Pyon » Jan 27 2019 11:10am

Hi ElectricGod, any progress with the mount base yet? I am considering bying this motor at some point so I am interested how you are going to end up fixing it.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 27 2019 5:29pm

Pyon wrote:
Jan 27 2019 11:10am
Hi ElectricGod, any progress with the mount base yet? I am considering bying this motor at some point so I am interested how you are going to end up fixing it.
Been working on other stuff while the right screws are in shipment. I'll make a slightly larger base, but it will be more or less like what I've all ready made.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by DanGT86 » Jan 27 2019 11:36pm

What is this "good solder" you mentioned when you were working with the tiny halls?

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Jan 29 2019 4:11am

DanGT86 wrote:
Jan 27 2019 11:36pm
What is this "good solder" you mentioned when you were working with the tiny halls?
NOT Chinese solder.
There's a bunch of brands that are made from good formulations...weller and kester both make good solder.

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A few new Revolt motors to review...

Post by ElectricGod » Feb 27 2019 3:49pm

I ordered 3 motors from Revolt and they arrived 45 days after they were shipped. There was also a 7 day delay while they made my motors. Do NOT expect anything coming from them to arrive quickly without it also costing a fortune! And then it still won't arrive quickly since they have to make the motors. I chose the cheap shipping option and that cost $75 and took 45 days to arrive. If I had shipped via air so I had the motors in less than 2 weeks, the shipping cost would have been $275. Good grief!!! So then...slooooooooow boat from Israel it is! Things from China get here much faster and cost far less for shipping.

I did have an issue with Revolt with this order. I wanted them to modify the motor shafts for me. I made sketches, sent them pictures, described what I wanted in multiple ways and they just could not comprehend what I wanted done. They wanted me to create detailed dimensional drawings of their motor shafts. Of course without actual possession of said shafts, HOW could I possibly give them drawings? I knew they had those drawings, but they refused to share them with me. WTF!!!? After trying 6 times and many road blocks where they flat out refused to understand anything I presented, I finally gave up in frustration and told them "Never mind, I'd do the mods myself!" Good grief!!!

I have several complaints with Revolt motors. Still...I'll use their motors before I buy another Alien Power motor!
1. 100% of their motors need an included universal motor base.
2. 100% of their motors should have threaded holes in the bell top and an included prop adapter.
3. They fail to make the union between the shaft and bell strong enough to hold up. Dual 4mm keys at least are needed.
4. Their shafts are over engineered. There is no need for a shoulder on the shaft to land the bearing inner races. How about add dual large key ways for the bell instead?
5. They use NSK bearings. Why not USE sealed NSK bearings? That's a tiny extra cost to use bearings that will last 5-20X longer with a very small increase in friction.
6. Expensive and sloooooow shipping.

Revolt is generally very responsive when you contact them. This is a huge improvement over Alien Power. I now have 4 Revolt outrunners. Physical build quality is generally better than anything from Alien Power.

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I wanted to compare the RV-120-regular with the Alien Power 12090 so I bought one. They have the same diameter stator, but the RV-120 stator and magnets are about 10mm taller. They should have similar-ish performance. I have a 12090 that I got used a couple of years ago for super cheap. I was surprised the phase wires on the RV-120 were 10 awg. The wires on the 12090 are a lot thicker...probably 8 awg. I think this is a "method" Revolt uses to limit the power of the motor. I'll know more once I take the motor apart and see how thick the actual phase wire ends are. I bet the silicon wires exiting the motor are a lot thinner than the phase winding ends are. The round openings in the bell won't provide any active air flow through them from the motor spinning. There's a single key between the 12mm shaft and bell...completely inadequate! The stator has 2X wider teeth in the RV-120 and as a result half as many as the 12090. An issue I have with the 12090 is the 28 magnets or 14 poles. This makes running the motor at higher than 66 volts difficult with typical 50,000 eRPM controllers. With 14 magnets/7 poles, this halves the eRPM of the Revolt motor compared to the AP motor and that makes it much more usable at higher voltages. General construction quality is better in the RV-120, but the 12090 will definitely breath better and it includes a motor base...which is completely lacking on all Revolt motors.

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This is the RV-100-Pro (right) and RV-100-regular (left). The bell is taller but the stator height and magnets are the same height. In the top of the bell they built in a radial fan in the RV-100-Pro. This accounts for most of the added height of the bell. With that internal radial fan it will pull air into the bottom of the motor and out the top. I'll place my wind gauge over the top of the motor and that will tell me a lot about how well this works. They both have 12mm shafts. The RV-100-regular has 10 awg wires and the RV-100-Pro has 9 awg wires. General construction of the Pro is a bit beefier than the Regular.

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All 3 versions of the RV-100 series side by side. RV-100-Regular, RV-100-Pro and RV-100E...

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I'll be modding the RV-100E for a friend. He currently has an Alien Power C80100 that I modded for him. He's wanting more power than the C80100 can deliver for his next build. The RV-100E will definitely be stronger...a LOT stronger! The C80100 is a good pairing with one of my modded 12 fet PV controllers. The RV-100E will need something in 18 mosfets to reach it's full potential. It's just waaaay bigger in every regard and will need more controller power.

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Since my C80100 is mounted in an EV. I can't lay both motors side by side. However, I have a Turnigy CA80-160 and it's physically the same size as a C80100. FYI...this Turnigy motor is garbage for EV use IMHO. I bought this back before I knew what a decent outrunner was.

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RV-100E close-up images. Those grooves in the bell wall are supposed to help keep the magnets cool. I don't know that it matters. In any outrunner no matter how hard I ran it, the magnets were not getting too hot. This motor has 8 awg wires. The stator is identical as far as I can see with the RV-100-Pro and RV-100-Regular. It has a built in radial fan. See those screw holes in the bell top? I'll be using them when I reinforce the motor shaft. One key to the aluminum bell...geez Revolt...figure this out! This is NOT enough!!! It does have a 15mm shaft...which is impressive. I'll have to get some more since it doesn't extend out the top of the motor. I'll need to reinforce the shaft to bell union so it holds up long term.

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The RV-100-Pro. I wonder if they used locktite on any of the screws? I really wish they would have drilled 6 holes in the bell top. It's like Revolt deliberately leaves out details so you will just buy their highest end motor. The 12mm shaft has a single key in it to join it to the bell. This is insufficient. The aluminum bell top will distort and deform when driving from the shaft. Fortunately there is extra shaft length so I can add a disk here to reinforce this union like I do on AP outrunners. 9 awg wires...really...just use 8 awg! I think after I'm done modding this motor, I'll pull the HLD inrunner off the XB-502 and replace it with this. It's 30% smaller and lighter and easily capable of more torque and wattage.

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madin88   100 MW

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by madin88 » Feb 28 2019 5:53am

Thank you for the review and the photos :thumb:

What would be nice to have is a brief summary of the performance relevant improvements done on the RV100E in comparison to the PRO version.

Things like:

- phase to phase resistance
- lamination thickness
- kV and number of turns
- no load losses at given RPM
- stator size (i guess they are identical?)

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Feb 28 2019 8:36pm

madin88 wrote:
Feb 28 2019 5:53am
Thank you for the review and the photos :thumb:

What would be nice to have is a brief summary of the performance relevant improvements done on the RV100E in comparison to the PRO version.

Things like:

- phase to phase resistance
- lamination thickness
- kV and number of turns
- no load losses at given RPM
- stator size (i guess they are identical?)
Good suggestions...thanks for the feedback.

None of the 3 RV-100 motors have the same Kv so comparison like this may not be meaningful.

Once I have the motors apart, I'll be taking lots of pictures of each one.

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Revolt RV-120-regular

Post by ElectricGod » Mar 07 2019 4:15pm

I've been looking over the 3 new Revolt motors. Getting the Pro and E apart will take some effort. I'll need to make a motor mounting plate for them first as there is nothing to hook a pullers jaws to without damaging the motor. I think making some kind of fixture is needed to pull off the bell bottom plates. I want the motors to come apart without even cosmetic damage. I'm sure Revolt has all sorts of specialized tools for working on their motors. They clearly don't want most people taking them apart!

I bought the RV-120-regular in the same KV as the 12090 I have. Wanted to be able to do a side by side comparison of these 2 motors since they are both 120mm motors and should perform more or less the same and have similar specs. That comparison will come later.

The RV-120-regular was a different story. I wish the RV-100-regular had come apart as easily. It's the same design, but not as easy to disassemble. With very little effort the bottom plate on the armature came right off.

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The skirt bearing is the same as the C80100 and I happened to have a spare sealed steel skirt bearing so that got replaced. I've also ordered sealed shaft bearings.

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The phase wires are 12 awg, which is a bit smallish for this size motor. I planned on replacing them the moment I saw they were 12 awg!

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The phases are wound with 5 strands of 20 awg wire. There's room on the stator for another strand at least...even at 50kv.

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The silicon wires are butt soldered to the ends of the phase windings. This is not a very good way to make this connection and as it turns out one of the wires broke off the winding ends when I was pulling out the original silicon wires. This was a problem waiting to happen! I took these pictures right after the connection broke apart with no changes to them. Really Revolt? This is the right way to make this connection?! The 12 awg silicon wire is about 20% smaller than the phase winding end.

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Another connection was a bit better and less starved of sufficient solder. Under the heat shrink it was still just a butt connection. Just one wire end soldered to the butt end of the other. I'm a bit disappointed in this level of apathetic assembly methods!!!

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As you can see the 12 awg wire is a good bit smaller than the phase winding end. Admittedly this connection is the ends of 2 phase windings twisted together, but the actual phase wire ought to be the same size as the total. I think Revolt does this so that people will buy their higher end motors. Small phase wires will really limit the capability of the motor. Of course since at least 1 more strand of wire could have been wound on the stator, this too will limit the motor. I'll run it as is and then if/when I burn it out, I'll rewind it and optimize the copper per tooth. As is, this wind will still do better than the 6kw Revolt says it can handle.

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I have some 8 awg teflon wire. It's the same OD as the 12 awg silicon wire, however, it's really stiff stuff. I had to mill out the holes in the motor core and make them into slots to get the teflon wires through the same space. All my connections from the winding ends to the phase wires are secure and won't fail. This is a crimp berrol that is just slightly larger than the 8 awg wire. I pretinned all the teflon wire ends, crimped the berrol around the end and then soldered it in place. Same for the phase winding ends. This connection will last for many years without issues!

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In this image you can see the milled out "slot" for the larger phase wire where the original 12 awg silicon wire used to be. All 3 connections got 2 layers of heat shrink on them.

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The skirt bearing is a big part of holding the new phase wires in place. Without it there they pop back out of the slots. Maybe over time the wires will relax and hold this shape on their own.

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The bearing is about 1.5mm away from the wire. I had to push the wire down pretty hard to get it clear and this is all I could get it to move. Fortunately, it's staying put. All I need is for it to NOT rub on the bearing outer race. Probably I need to reposition that zip tie so it clears the bottom of the motor bell.

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Old vs new phase wire...lot's more "beef" now...probably 20-30% more conductor. This is no longer limiting the motor.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by larsb » Mar 07 2019 4:28pm

Nothing new.. Why waste your time on this? When you are done the conclusion will be that it was not worth the effort.

Only the 120e motor is somewhat interesting since it should have other laminations than the others. If they have learnt something..but i guess not since they still sell the old crap.

Having already tried two crappy revolt motors and seeing more money thrown their way is painful..

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Revolt RV-120-regular halls and temp sensor

Post by ElectricGod » Mar 07 2019 4:50pm

I should have taken pictures of the hall harness I made up and didn't. I've been adding temp sensors into my motors for a long time. I have a 6th pin in the IP68 hall connectors I use that never gets used. This hall harness incorporates the temp sensor so I can use that 6th pin in the connector.

I used SMT halls since the gaps between the stator teeth are too narrow for 41F halls. So if you want to see that, look at the work I did for the RV-100-regular. All that's different is I added a temp sensor into the harness.

The halls are setting up in thermal glue and I'll take a few pics of that for this post later. I was able to put a thin cardboard shim in front of each stator gap and keep the hall faces pressed against it with the bell still on the stator. I used a small section of card stock behind each hall to hold them in place. Filling in with thermal glue was easy after that. Later I'll remove the card stock and I'm sure a bit more filling in with thermal glue will be needed, but that's about it.

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Last edited by ElectricGod on Mar 07 2019 5:51pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Mar 07 2019 5:04pm

larsb wrote:
Mar 07 2019 4:28pm
Nothing new.. Why waste your time on this? When you are done the conclusion will be that it was not worth the effort.

Only the 120e motor is somewhat interesting since it should have other laminations than the others. If they have learnt something..but i guess not since they still sell the old crap.

Having already tried two crappy revolt motors and seeing more money thrown their way is painful..
What outrunner would you use?
Where's your reviews of those motors?

I did start the previous post with saying I wanted to compare the RV-120-reg with the AP 12090 since they are so similar. How is that bad? At worst it's not a waste of time or money as this informs everyone about these motors and that is a GOOD thing. IMHO, I have wasted nothing and the effort is worth it.

Admittedly the RV-120-regular is not their best motor, but "crappy", well I'll soon discover if that's true or not. My suspicion is that it is no worse than the Chinese made Alien Power 12090 and I already know that in several ways it's superior.

1. 15mm shaft vs 12mm shaft
2. Keyway in the shaft to bell union vs 2 very small set screws
3. Better copper fill on the stator teeth
4. Half as many pole pairs

At this point, I'm still confident it will be stronger, weigh less, be smaller and possibly use less wattage than the HLD inrunner currently on my XB-502 scooter.
Last edited by ElectricGod on Mar 07 2019 5:19pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by larsb » Mar 07 2019 5:18pm

the revolt reviews are in my posts. Well documented, and i think you already wrote earlier that you read some of them.. In the rotor losses thread possibly.

The low copper fill, useless soldering of wires etc has been a general issue for Revolt. It was 22% copper fill in my motor originally..

And if the laminations are low quality like in Revolt case then it's not better with lower pole count.

Etc.

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