Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by fechter » Mar 21 2019 2:49pm

Super Loctite was sort of joke. They do make many different flavors though. I used some green "wicking grade" stuff that was almost like welding the parts together. I don't remember the number. It was more like super glue.

Yes, any kind of anaerobic locking fluid doesn't work well if there is much clearance to start with. Epoxy might work.

Another option would be some kind of clamping arrangement like a Taper-lock bushing. If the parts are held together tightly enough, the whole shaft would shear off first.
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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by larsb » Mar 21 2019 2:57pm

I've used the loctite retaining compounds:
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/ ... ounds.html
worked well to fit loose shaft to bearing in that application
Ride on :D

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by fechter » Mar 21 2019 2:59pm

larsb wrote:
Mar 21 2019 2:57pm
I've used the loctite retaining compounds:
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/ ... ounds.html
worked well to fit loose shaft to bearing in that application
Which one? There are many.
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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by larsb » Mar 21 2019 3:20pm

sorry, i need to look for it in my garage...
it was loctite 648
Ride on :D

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Mar 21 2019 3:58pm

fechter wrote:
Mar 21 2019 2:49pm
Super Loctite was sort of joke. They do make many different flavors though. I used some green "wicking grade" stuff that was almost like welding the parts together. I don't remember the number. It was more like super glue.

Yes, any kind of anaerobic locking fluid doesn't work well if there is much clearance to start with. Epoxy might work.

Another option would be some kind of clamping arrangement like a Taper-lock bushing. If the parts are held together tightly enough, the whole shaft would shear off first.
I saw this green stuff...is this what you are referring to?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Loctite-275-Gr ... SwaKVchs1S

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by madin88 » Mar 21 2019 4:20pm

As already mentiond, it is the Loctite 648 which should be used for that.
The feather key should be up to the task for what the motor is capeable to deliver to the shaft, but i agree that it is a little bit undersized.
btw: it is the torque which will shear off the key and not the power! :wink:

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by liveforphysics » Mar 21 2019 4:52pm

madin88 wrote:
Mar 21 2019 4:20pm
As already mentiond, it is the Loctite 648 which should be used for that.
The feather key should be up to the task for what the motor is capeable to deliver to the shaft, but i agree that it is a little bit undersized.
btw: it is the torque which will shear off the key and not the power! :wink:
You would be correct for static situations of a powertrain loading, like climbing a smooth flat hill. In practice, the torque the motor delivers is largely irrelevant to the peak loads a powertrain experiences. This is because the inertial loading when the wheel leaves the ground and freely spins up, and then re-contacts the ground again can easily be 50x or more of the peak loads seen by electromagnetic generated torque forces.
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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Mar 21 2019 5:43pm

madin88 wrote:
Mar 21 2019 4:20pm
As already mentiond, it is the Loctite 648 which should be used for that.
The feather key should be up to the task for what the motor is capeable to deliver to the shaft, but i agree that it is a little bit undersized.
btw: it is the torque which will shear off the key and not the power! :wink:
In the case of any outrunner or inrunner I have experience with, the LAST thing I'm worried about is if the key will shear off or not. However the keyways have been issues.

Torque...yes...I already said that.

Undersized...lol...can you present a motor that a typical EV builder such as myself would use that isn't undersized in the keyways or union between bell and shaft? Part of my goals for buying several Revolt motors was to see if they make motors that you can just "buy and use" without any modifications. While significantly better than AP motors in most every way, they still need additional work to make them reliable long term.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Mar 21 2019 5:54pm

liveforphysics wrote:
Mar 21 2019 4:52pm
madin88 wrote:
Mar 21 2019 4:20pm
As already mentiond, it is the Loctite 648 which should be used for that.
The feather key should be up to the task for what the motor is capeable to deliver to the shaft, but i agree that it is a little bit undersized.
btw: it is the torque which will shear off the key and not the power! :wink:
You would be correct for static situations of a powertrain loading, like climbing a smooth flat hill. In practice, the torque the motor delivers is largely irrelevant to the peak loads a powertrain experiences. This is because the inertial loading when the wheel leaves the ground and freely spins up, and then re-contacts the ground again can easily be 50x or more of the peak loads seen by electromagnetic generated torque forces.
I imagine this is more severe for EV's that see jumps and off road use. For builds where the typical use case is on roads and all wheels usually stay on the gound, probably this is somewhat negligible.

My scooter that used the HLD inrunner for 5000 miles did see some amount of jumping off curbs, but that's maybe once in any ride. Never the less I broke a shaft adapter and the keyways are definitely stretched. If my fairly conservative riding can do that, what happens to EV's used by aggressive riders that take jumps all the time?

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by liveforphysics » Mar 22 2019 1:47am

Shock loads from impacts, even potholes hit by the tamest of riders put so much higher loads on the powertrain than propulsion torque loads, you don't design a powertrain around the torque loads at all, but the shock loads.
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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by Punx0r » Mar 22 2019 3:21am

I've not seen someone put a figure on drivetrain shock load Vs. steady state before so thanks for that :thumb:

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by madin88 » Mar 22 2019 7:24am

liveforphysics wrote:
Mar 22 2019 1:47am
Shock loads from impacts, even potholes hit by the tamest of riders put so much higher loads on the powertrain than propulsion torque loads, you don't design a powertrain around the torque loads at all, but the shock loads.
Do you think that size of the drive sprockets or pulleys would have an influence on the shock loads (the feather key sees)?

If we take for example a drive train with 1:5 reduction. one with 10/50T and the other one 20/100T. Same type of chain or belt.
ElectricGod wrote:
Mar 21 2019 5:43pm
Undersized...lol...can you present a motor that a typical EV builder such as myself would use that isn't undersized in the keyways or union between bell and shaft?
On my Neu 8057 the shaft is attached to the bell with 6xM5 bolts and inherently glued with loctite:
neu1.jpg
neu2.jpg
neu2.jpg (4.16 KiB) Viewed 1230 times

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by fechter » Mar 22 2019 8:16am

madin88 wrote:
Mar 22 2019 7:24am

Do you think that size of the drive sprockets or pulleys would have an influence on the shock loads (the feather key sees)?

If we take for example a drive train with 1:5 reduction. one with 10/50T and the other one 20/100T. Same type of chain or belt.
I'm sure that has some effect. With smaller sprockets, the chain or belt can absorb more of the shock. It might just mean your chain or belt breaks before the motor shaft.

Speaking of which, on some motorcycles they use a rubber buffer between the sprocket and the hub to reduce the shock loading. Some of these are pretty simple. The sprocket floats on the axle and engages the hub with rubber covered pegs. If you have serious shock load, these things will help a lot.
Rubber-buffer.jpg
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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Mar 22 2019 10:33am

madin88 wrote:
Mar 22 2019 7:24am
On my Neu 8057 the shaft is attached to the bell with 6xM5 bolts and inherently glued with loctite:

neu1.jpg

neu2.jpg
Yeah!!! That will hold up!
Since I've been modding these Revolt motors in a similar fashion...nice to know I was doing something right.
I'll have a look at Neu motors.

Where did you buy the motor from?

I googled for Neu motors...
https://neumotors.com/
They have a large selection and they are in the USA. How did I miss these guys?

They don't do retail sales that I can find.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by larsb » Mar 22 2019 3:03pm

LFP quote:
Shock loads from impacts, even potholes hit by the tamest of riders put so much higher loads on the powertrain than propulsion torque loads, you don't design a powertrain around the torque loads at all, but the shock loads.
I never had any issues with keys failing even though i see the point above, for the RV120 motors i am sure the grip fit on axle vs bell did a good job. Before that i used freewheel so no shock loads like described could transfer through to the motor key.

It wouldn't be too hard to do an ok calculation on the forces that can result from the shock loads.
Ride on :D

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Mar 24 2019 2:00am

I've had a rotary table for a good while and recently bought a 3 jaw chuck. Last week I bought this adapter plate so I can mount the chuck to the table.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-base-adapter ... 2749.l2649

It needed a bit of modding since the 3 bolt pattern is for some other lathe chuck. So first thing I did was get the plate centered on the rotary table and then put a new 3 bolt pattern in the right place for my chuck. The gap is so I can fit the nuts for the tops of theT nuts in the gap. I probably could have made this part or something like it.

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Since I now had a way to properly mount the 3 jaw chuck to the table, I spent a good bit of time getting them dead centered on top of each other. It's still not perfect. The rotary table has about 2/hundredths of run-out so this is as good as it gets. The ID and OD of the adapter were done by a machinist on far better equipment than I have. Still...I can't complain that I'm now getting this amount of accuracy on a drill press. The ID wall is about .5mm thick.

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Milling off the top of this adapter worked much better too.

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This is final ID...15mm.

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I still have movement and vibration in the quill and from time to time it causes the mill to chatter. When it gets really bad, carbide self destructs. This was a good 1/2" end mill until it went wild inside the adapter sleeve. I really wish I had a better machine!

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I pulled out a 1/4" mill and finished the ID of the adapter sleeve. Checking the thickness of the wall on the new sleeve, I'm within .01mm everywhere. This is close enough to perfect that I doubt I'll notice any wobble from the sleeve. The new one is 5/16" longer than the original attempt. I was previously limited to less than the length of the cutting surface of the mill, but now I can go longer since things are a lot more stable.

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RV-100E stuff

Post by ElectricGod » Mar 24 2019 2:38am

I did a bit more scrutinizing of the RV-100E and found a few things that are less than wonderful. Revolt is still failing on the details! GRRR! Horrific motors...no not really, but the entire product line does suffer from assembly and quality issues. The entire product line has things that are soooo easy to fix and aren't and then in other areas the attention to detail is really good. The stators are clearly dipped in lacquer after they are fully assembled, but the bearings are dipped too which means they get polluted with hardened lacquer. It's almost like machining and winding is done by one group and then assembly is done by uneducated dumb asses.

Just an opinion about Revolt...
I think they are cheap ass skin flints! They cut corners anywhere they can get away with it.
1. Sub-optimal hall placement.
2. Using pliers to smash a ferrol instead of a 6 point crimper.
3. Not using a crimp ferrule at all like in all the Regular motors.
4. Not using .3mm lams on the Regular motors.
5. Single short keys where dual longer ones need to be used.
6. Using unskilled and cheap labor for assembling motors.
7. Lack of attention to details.
8. Poor quality control.
9. Complete inability to fix or modify any existing design EVER to resolve known issues.
10. No included motor bases.

I pulled apart the phase ends on the RV-100E and all 3 of them were smashed together in a flattened ferrol and then soldered. Better than the butt soldering in the RV-120-regular, but still pretty pathetic. I took apart the 3 connections and redid all of them. From the factory, it will work, but Revolt could have put a bit more effort into this connection and used a crimper instead of pliers.

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When I took apart one of them, I found that about 1/8" of wire ends were in the smashed ferrule. The smashed ferrol is 1/2" long and they had barely 1/8 of the winding end inside. Whoever wired up this motor really sucks!

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I found this previously. Now I know why the phase end was so short. Pulling back those very short ends shown above, I was then at this bodge in the wind and was able to break it loose from the cured lacquer. This gave me the length needed to properly crimp and solder the winding end 1/4" deep inside the ferrol.

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I used ferrules, crimped around the wires on 6 sides (not smashed flat) and then soldered to redo all the connections. They are each covered in 2 layers of heat shrink.

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The halls and temp sensor come out in a 7 pin connector. I'm not overly fond of non-waterproof connectors so I replaced this with an IP68 connector.

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The hall board is kind of cool how it mounts via 2 hidden screws that you access from the bottom of the motor.

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I think I did this. The wires were super glued to the hall board and pulling out the board stripped off the wire insulation.

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I pulled all 5 wires for halls, stripped new ends and soldered them back in place. While there, I repositioned the pull-up resistors and buried them in thermal glue. I can't imagine why Revolt thought leaving them unsecured was OK. The hall cable is silicon wires inside a silicon outer insulator...not bad!

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Mar 28 2019 1:29am

I've been working on my drill press to get it as stable as possible. Every time I think I've gotten all the play out of some part, I figure out how to get it a bit better. I have a dial indicator so I can see where the slop is. Tonight I took apart the entire drill press table and found a few places I could tune up a bit more and remove movement or slop. My cross vice had a little movement in one of the slides so I retuned that. The mounting board for it had some slop which is now cleaned up. How the cross vice mounts, got redone and now that too is much better. Before redoing things, I had .13" of movement and now I have .015" of movement. I know where the biggest amount of play is...the quill...but to fix it, I'd need to take the drill press head apart, get it precision milled and then use a better quill. At that point, I'd do better with a new drill press! I'm pretty sure it's as good as it can get now.

This is my first attempt to mill out a key way in hardened shaft. I got some minor chatter and that caused the mill to self destruct. Compared to some of my early attempts at milling on the drill press, this is gorgeous. After cutting this key way, I retuned the things mentioned above. I'll make another attempt at cutting a key way tomorrow and I bet it will be better than this and hopefully I won't destroy the mill in the process. I did this in 3 passes and hopefully I can get it cut in a single pass now. No movement or slop is the key to getting this to work!

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This is a piece of copper I milled just a month ago. This was my first attempt and I've spent loads of time since then cleaning up slop and movement in anything and everything on the drill press. This looked awful back when I did this and I know I'm getting much better results now. The mill chattered nearly the entire time I cut this face thinner. There's no way just a month ago that I could have cut a keyway!!!

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Revolt RV-120-regular

Post by ElectricGod » Mar 31 2019 11:21pm

Now that I can mill shaft, I'll be making a new one for the motor next. The factory shaft was milled a little thinner between the 2 shoulders that used to be on the shaft. Since I've slid the shaft down, the bottom bearing is now in that thinner area and as a result there's some slop between the inner bearing race and the shaft.

I made this today. It's the face of the motor bracket for the RV-120-regular motor. The 4 M6 screws thread into the motor base I made previously. The theory here is the elongated slots will allow me to raise or lower the motor. On the Currie, I used the exact same thing and didn't need a separate chain tensioner. There's about 1" of movement.

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This was made is 2 main steps. The first one was to use 4 M6 screws for mounting the motor bracket face plate in my cross vice. I was then able to mill the 2 long slots for the 4 motor mounting screws. The shaft slot (step 2) was done on the rotary table. I used the motor base bolted to the plate in the slots as a reference for center between the screw slots. Since the motor base it has a 6 bolt pattern, I was able to use that in the 3 jaw chuck to hold the motor base and face plate on center. I slid the 4 screws to one end of their slots and locked them down. I then milled out a 19mm circle. I then slid the base plate to the other end of the slots and milled another 19mm circle. After that, I just connected them together. The rotary table has X, Y and Z axis so this was pretty easy to do. This turned out much better than drilling out the slots and filing them like I would have done in the past.

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Revolt RV-100E bell to shaft reinforcing

Post by ElectricGod » Apr 07 2019 7:50pm

This morning I transferred this 6 bolt pattern from the top of the motor bell to paper.

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I then cut a square of 3/8" thick 6061 aluminum and stuck the paper down to it.. I drilled and tapped the center for M6 so I'd have a center point to hold in my 3 jaw chuck. This allowed me to drill the bolt pattern on my rotary table. Perfect match!

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I used the 6 holes and M5 screws to create a way to hold the 6061 so I could mill it round. Right now the OD is a little too large.

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I then moved to cutting the ID to 14.5mm for an interference fit with the 15mm shaft. From time to time due to slop in the drill press, the mills will chatter and possibly grab the material being worked. Of course there I was at 14.5mm and this is exactly what happened! The ID had a pretty big gouge in it before I could get things under control again. GRRRR! I needed to mill out the ID to 17mm to get past the gouge. I had some aluminum tube with a 19mm OD and 14mm ID. I milled out the disk ID to 18.5mm so I''d have an interference fit with a section of the tube. Pressing the tube section into the ID was a tight fit! A little careful milling brought down the tube section to flush with the top and bottom of the disk. It won't ever come out again. Fortunately I had no further issues with mill chatter and got the ID to 14.5mm.

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I bought 4 and 6 sided collet blocks and 12 and 15mm collets so I could securely hold shaft. I needed 6 flats on the shaft for the set screws in the reinforcing disk. The 6 sided collet block made milling 6 flats super easy and accurate.

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The shaft inside the disk is a perfect fit.

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Remember the OD is a bit over sized. I milled flats on the perimeter so when I drilled out the 6 set screw holes, the bit would not wander. Right now the disk looks a bit mishapen, but that gets fixed in a minute. I drilled out a single set screw hole more or less free hand. Once it was tapped, I could use a set screw to keep the disk from moving on the shaft. The collet block then made the other 6 holes easy. This is all 6 set screw holes drilled and tapped and seated on the shaft flats.

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I bit more milling of the OD got it down to size and back to round. I also drilled out the 6 screw holes so the bell screws are inset in the disk.

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Looking good!

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I still need to mill out the mating keyway in the new shaft.

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Revolt RV-120-regular

Post by ElectricGod » Apr 14 2019 11:12pm

The motor bracket it essentially done. I need to make a few small additions to it for mounting to the swing arm yet, but it's really close to getting mounted! I still need to make a new shaft for the motor.

A few pics of the progress today. It's all assembled with 8-32 screws which are a good size in 1/4" 6061aluminum. Countersunk screws are coming to clean this assembly up a bit more. I have 1" of vertical movement in the slots.

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I can rotate the motor in 60 degree increments so the wires don't stick straight up, but this is probably how it will mount.

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All the way down in the slots clears by 1/8"...which is pretty good.

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Revolt RV-100E shaft to bell reinforcing

Post by ElectricGod » Apr 16 2019 11:00am

I got close to finishing up the new shaft for the RV-100E last night. The factory shaft was too short to rework and still have sufficient length out the bottom of the motor for a sprocket. I added nearly 1" of length to the new shaft.

This is the new shaft to bell keyway and key. Due to a little slop in the drill press quill, making the keyway 4mm wide didn't quite work out and as it turns out the keyway in the bell was 4.6mm not 4mm so I made a custom key to be a perfect fit for both keyways. The shoulder on the key accounts for these 2 keyway widths. The key is almost 2X longer than what Revolt put in the motor and uses the entire keyway in the bell top. Between the full length key and 6 set screws on shaft flats, I doubt this will ever fail.

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Most shafts don't have any way to retain the 3 jaw puller screw end. I've had it happen several times while pushing off a motor bell that the puller screw will wander off the end of the motor shaft. This shallow hole in the drive end of the shaft will prevent that from happening.

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Completed shaft to bell reinforcing. What can this hold? I'm flat out guessing, but 3-5X more than the motor can deliver sounds about right. I think it will deal with shock loads nicely.

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Installed on the motor bell. These M5 screws are a bit long and touch the top of the motor core. Right after this image was taken I swapped out the 25mm long screws with 20mm ones. They still use the entire thread length in the bell top. The key is .5mm lower than the shoulder on the bell that sits on the top bearing inner race.

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Looking good!

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I assembled the motor so I could see where I needed to add flats and a keyway on the drive end of the shaft for the motor sprocket. I'll probably finish that up tonight.

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Last edited by ElectricGod on Apr 16 2019 3:07pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by drc » Apr 16 2019 12:48pm

Look like you have worked very very hard on these motors EG. You should build your own motor from scratch! Are you going to test the RV100s on an EV to do a practical comparison?

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Apr 16 2019 3:23pm

drc wrote:
Apr 16 2019 12:48pm
Look like you have worked very very hard on these motors EG. You should build your own motor from scratch! Are you going to test the RV100s on an EV to do a practical comparison?
It didn't occur to me until you said that, but there's no reason why I couldn't put the RV-100E on the XB-502 and try it out. The mounting holes in the RV-100E base may not be the same spacing as the motor base for the RV-120-reg, but I can make a new base easily enough so it fits the bracket I made for the RV-120-reg. I haven't made a base for the RV-100-pro yet. Might as well make the bolt spacing standardized for everything. It too could get tested on the XB-502.

People were wanting practical tests and I've been working towards that end, but doing actual tests all on the same EV of several motors didn't cross my mind.

Building a motor..I have to laugh! I'm pretty sure it would suck. I know enough about motor design to be dangerous and to make a terrible motor. It would be mechanically very sound, but it would probably perform poorly.

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Revolt RV-100E shaft modding

Post by ElectricGod » Apr 17 2019 2:17am

The motor shaft is done.

This long keyway will allow the sprocket to be positioned on the shaft anywhere in the 1.5" of keyway.

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There's 3 flats and the keyway and they are all the same length. The flats are so 3 set screws from the sprocket can land on them.

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iI milled this key from hardened steel and is a perfect fit for the shaft and sprocket key way widths. It's also taller to account for the added thickness for the keyways and sleeve. It's 25.5mm x 4.65mm x 7mm.

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End view of the shaft so you can see the flats and keyway.

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