Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

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ElectricGod   100 MW

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Revolt RV-160-SH

Post by ElectricGod » Jul 26 2019 8:10pm

The bearings arrived today.

My goals are:
1. Check! Replace the shielded bearings.
2. Reinforce the shaft to bell union without adding an external reinforcing disk.
3. Add an internal radial fan to the top of the bell.
4. Spray down the bare stator with electrical paint.
5. Rewind for 80kv and maximum copper fill.
6. Spray down the new windings with electrical paint for "in weather use".

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Revolt RV-160SH rebuild

Post by ElectricGod » Sep 15 2019 4:56am

I got some time today to work on the RV-160SH. Like all the Revolt product line, this too has some quality issues. I'll post pics of what I found later.

Like all motors I take apart, a 3 jaw puller is the right tool.

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This motor has seen a fair bit of use. The shaft keyway in the bell is a bit stretched. I'll mill it out a bit longer in the shaft and use a longer key to take advantage of the entire length of keyway in the bell.

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In this regard Revolt does good work. The top and bottom parts are nicely made. Getting those clutch pates out of them wasn't too hard. Getting rid of the extra epoxy stuck on everything took time.

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Typical pancake style outrunner. 14 magnets, 7 poles. I cleaned up the inside of the bell ring and then degreased it. It has electrical paint curing on it now.

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The stator core is fairly beefy and takes 6 M8 screws. This is a 67kv version so that's 12 turns. I'll be rewinding for 80kv or 10 turns. In case anybody cares, those are .3mm lams.

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Lots of empty space on the stator. Plus dropping 2 turns per tooth, that will make for a good bit more space for more copper per turn.

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I do halls like this. I was curious to see if Revolt did anything special and no they don't, just make up a harness and glue them in place.

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Typical shit quality control at Revolt. Come on guys...at least try to NOT suck! I mean really? You can't bother to get all the strands of the phase wire inside the ferule?! How about actually soldering things while you are at it too.

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This motor was closed up so it got no cooling at all. This winding thread is partly melted to the wires. This stuff takes a LOT of heat to get it to melt! Those plastic insulators take a lot of heat to get them to melt. This motor was pretty hot for this to happen. I'm betting will into 200C and on the verge of burning out.

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Revolt RV-160-SH

Post by ElectricGod » Sep 16 2019 12:43am

I got the rest of the stator unwound tonight. Some of the lams had separated so zip ties are holding them together until the runny super glue sets up. The stator without bearings weighs 3.5 pounds. The copper off the stator weighs 1.8 pounds. The stator needs a bit more clean up. I'll take care of that after all the lams are good to go.

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Nearly all the insulators are badly melted. This motor was on the verge of a burn out. I'm not sure what I'll do to replace them. Kapton maybe?

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by fechter » Sep 17 2019 2:11pm

I recommend Nomex paper for the insulators. It is pretty puncture resistant compared to Kapton.

Ancient motor project from 2002 using Nomex paper to replace badly melted plastic insulators. This survived serious abuse and is still running today as far as I know.
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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Sep 18 2019 11:03am

fechter wrote:
Sep 17 2019 2:11pm
I recommend Nomex paper for the insulators. It is pretty puncture resistant compared to Kapton.

Ancient motor project from 2002 using Nomex paper to replace badly melted plastic insulators. This survived serious abuse and is still running today as far as I know.
Yes! Of course...I completely forgot about buying 100 sheets of that stuff a couple of years ago in 2 thicknesses.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious...lol.
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Revolt RV-160-SH motor rewind

Post by ElectricGod » Sep 20 2019 3:00am

A bit more work on the RV-160.

I used JB-weld on the tops and bottoms of the stator to ease the corners some. I'll still use motor paper, but that will come later.

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I taped up the motor core for painting. This is electrical paint. Once it is baked in the oven it turns really hard. It needs a bit more application of paint before I'll be happy with the level of coating.

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Revolt RV-160-SH

Post by ElectricGod » Sep 21 2019 6:32am

Fully painted and baked for 30 minutes.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by fechter » Sep 21 2019 9:44am

That should do it. On my rewind project from way back I used a dremel to radius the edges a little as they were razor sharp.
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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Sep 25 2019 10:50am

fechter wrote:
Sep 21 2019 9:44am
That should do it. On my rewind project from way back I used a dremel to radius the edges a little as they were razor sharp.
The epoxy helps round the sharp edges which are still there.
I'm going to use winding paper too.

Won't using a dremel short the laminations together?
I've sen this done, but was not sure what to think of it.
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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by fechter » Sep 25 2019 10:56am

I just took the sharp edge off which is mostly on the end lamination so shouldn't be shorting to the next one. A hand file would work too, but so does JB Weld. On my original motor, the insulation melted and the sharp edges cut into the windings. Then smoke happened. I was trying to do everything I could to prevent a repeat.
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Re: Revolt RV-160-SH rewind

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 04 2019 12:22pm

I finally got back to rewinding this motor over the weekend. The first phase got wound 3 times before I was happy with the copper fill. I ended up with 112 strands of 28 awg wire to get this...or about 60% more per tooth. I won't know exactly how much more until I weigh the stator after I'm done with all 3 phases, but it's a significant improvement over the factory wind. I wound for 80kv (10 turns) instead of 67kv (12 turns) so that freed up some space for more copper per turn as well. This is like 6 awg vs 10 awg.

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The last test wind...almost completely full at 112 strands. I can get a bit more in here, but with the added winding paper, it won't fit.

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After I was satisfied with the copper fill, I added 10 mil winding paper to all the stator teeth and taped it in place with kapton.

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2 phases are wound. I've been helping a friend to wind a hub motor so I've run out of wire to finish the third phase. 4 more spools are on their way. Once they are all wound, I'll secure each tooth with motor winding thread. The large lengths of wire in the center of the motor are so I can run the phase wires direct to the controller with no splicing to silicon wires inside the motor. 28 awg is quite flexible so breakage won't be a problem like it would be for 20 awg. The phase ends are about 2 feet long right now. The electrical paint does not take to permanent marker very well. Anything I wrote on a stator tooth wore off quickly. As a result I used label tape to mark all the stator teeth.

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Revolt RV-160-SH

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 19 2019 5:07am

I finally had time tonight to finish up the RV-160-SH rewind.
All 3 phases are wound to 10 turns, 112 strands and 80kv.
I'll get out my test gear tomorrow to test each phase for inductance, resistance and shorts.

Old copper: 1.73 pounds
Original wind and stator: 5.23 pounds
Empty stator with no bearings: 3.5 pounds
New wind on the stator: 7.28 pounds
New copper: 3.78 pounds
New wind is 2.18X more copper!

Once the phase wires are trimmed and paired up, I'll probably lose a little bit of copper weight. I deliberately left them very long.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by SlowCo » Nov 19 2019 6:57am

Serious amount of copper winding there :thumb:
What amount of power (cont./peak) do you think you'll be able to put through it?

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 19 2019 1:15pm

SlowCo wrote:
Nov 19 2019 6:57am
Serious amount of copper winding there :thumb:
What amount of power (cont./peak) do you think you'll be able to put through it?
Ideally...since I have double the copper fill...double the wattage of what Revolt specs are for the motor.
Reality will be somewhat less than that, but still significantly better than factory specs.
The magnets can only pull or push so hard. Pushing more current into the stator won't change that.
The stator will get saturated, that too will limit the maximum wattage.
Heat probably will be a lesser concern, but it will pull me back at some point.

What the realistic continuous maximum is...lol...TBD once the motor is on the EV...

I'll be happy with 60-80% more.
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Wire guage and winding ease

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 19 2019 2:24pm

Several observations about wire gauges and motor winding:

1. Thinner wire lays down much more easily than does thicker wire.
2. 20 awg wire gets used widely becasue it has a good ratio of copper to wire insulation.
3. 28 awg has a less than optimal copper to insulation ratio than does 20 awg.
4. Copper conducts current, insulation does the opposite. It's essentially in the way of maximizing copper fill.
5. You want to get the maximum amount of copper on the stator possible.
6. If many small strands make winding easy and lay down compactly, they may provide better copper fill than a few larger strands.

Pros for 28 awg:
20 awg is a good bit stiffer and harder to wind than is 28 awg. You need to press it down flat and pull on it harder (which is bad for the insulation) to get good copper fill. 28 awg is thin and flexible and lays down on it's own where ever you wind it. Thin strands fill in small gaps that thicker strands will not. With 28 awg, the strands just lay down and nestle together. They fill in gaps with very little effort. I really like 28 awg for the ease of laying down turns. I have found that I can get more copper on a stator with 28 awg than I can get with 20 awg as a result of this.

Cons for 28 awg:
The RV-160-SH needed 112 strands to fill the stator with 28 awg wire. 112 of them requires lots of attention to loops and snags! I spent a good bit of time just combing out snags and loops in the many strands both before and during winding a phase. Before I start a phase, I spend probably an hour just getting all the many strands starting within 1/2" of each other. Snagging a strand on something is easy and you quickly lose all that work you just did to get the ends all together. Soooo many times I would think I was ready to wind and I'd find a random strand 6 or 10 inches away from the starts of all the other strands. Check...double check...triple check...check a few more times...lol...finally you get one end with all the strands starting together. Twist them tightly together and wrap in some tape before a strand gets away again! Thin wires don't stay put very well. They are hard to see. They snag on stuff easily. A strand will come off a tooth or slide around a bit and get slack in it. I spent a lot of time trying to keep those many thin strands tight. In these ways, less strands and bigger ones is definitely better.

Last night I bought 4 spools of 24 awg wire. I have yet to use 24 awg for winding anything ever. My hope is that it lays down similarly to 28 awg. It has a bit better copper to insulation ratio so that means more copper and less insulation on the stator than I'm getting with 28 awg. Hopefully I'll reduce the hassles of so many tiny 28 awg strands. It's an experiment to see if it's a better winding option for me. I've used lots of 28 awg so I know how well I like and dislike it.

FYI: Buy wire direct from TEMco instead of amazon or ebay. You'll pay far less per spool of wire. As long as your order is more than $100, shipping is included
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Revolt RV-160SH motor

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 05 2019 10:46pm

A bit more work done on it...

My phase resistances vary more than I'd like. I think that has to do with how well the phase ends were tinned when I checked resistance. The inductance for each phase is identical so I seriously doubt my winds are different.

Phase A: 12.86 mOhm and .67 mH
Phase B: 11.85 mOhms and .67 mH
Phase C: 14.32 mOhms and .67 mH

The 6 phase ends are all soldered together. They are currently 27" long. After some testing, I'll reduce that length to 14" which is plenty for my uses. Clear heat shrink covers both sets of phase eneds in each hole. I'll add another layer later to protect them more.

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2 of the original phase ends twisted together vs 2 of the new ones. That's a LOT more copper! Maybe with very carefully wound 20 awg, I could have gotten more on here, but it wouldn't be another 20%. Probably more like another 5% at most. I'm happy with this!

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I probably won't ever care, but each phase end is labeled inside the heat shrink.Once I'm happy with how the motor runs, I'll add another layer of clear on the entire length of the phase ends and down into the motor. I'll also bind up the windings with thread.

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I'm using 8mm long bullets. The phase resistances are 6.98 mOhms, 7.05 mOhms and 7.29 m Ohms. That's .31 mOhms variance...not bad! I had to shake out all the loose solder from between the strands and then squeeze them together with a barrel crimper to get the phase ends to fit inside the 8mm bullets.

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I needed to purchase a 20mm collet so I can hold the motor shaft securely. That arrived yesterday. The key way in the shaft for the bell union can be 5mm longer. Now I can mill it a bit longer.

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I'll be adding 4 set screws in the cone shaped section of the bell top. The set screws will be perpendicular to the cone shaped area and that means landing in the shaft at an angle. This is fairly easy to drill right into the shaft in a single operation with the right tool. I need to make a fixture for my drill so I can do this operation and make 90 degree rotations while staying 90 degrees from the cone surface. It's mostly made already, but there's some minor tweaking to do before the fixture is done.

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This is the drill carrier and it fits in my cross vice. The bottom is super glued in place right now and I took these pictures while that was curing. I have no way to clamp the bottom to the walls and also drill the screw holes that will hold them together. Super glue won't hold forever, but it will last long enough to do the drilling I need to do.

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Revolt RV-160-SH

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 06 2019 3:42am

I was about to finish up the drill carrier when it struck me I might be able to do this operation without it. I set aside the drill carrier to see if my idea would work. I'll finish it later...

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This was the new idea:

I tilted the drill press table to 40 degrees to get perpendicular to the cone shape.

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The collet block with the shaft and bell top both mounted meant I needed to lift the collet block so the bell top cleared the cross vice. I used parallel bars under the collet block to raise it up and to keep it parallel with the cross vice bed. These are set up shots to get things properly positioned for drilling. I later used a carbide drill, but they are brittle and snap off easily so setup is done with something I don't care about. Later when I drilled the 3 holes, I had things set up so that it would position on top of the parallel bars the same every time. All I had to do was loosen the vice, rotate 90 degrees, reclamp and drill to get all of them in exactly the same spot.

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I wish I could have gotten all the epoxy off the metal, but what's left is stuck down pretty good. This is one of the 3 holes I drilled for set screws.

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I drilled with a 1/8" carbide drill so I could drill the shaft at the same time. Typical HSS drills just won't cut hardened shaft. Later I switched to an end mill to make my shallow drill holes in the shaft into flats for the 3 set screws at 40 degrees.

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Tapped holes in the bell top with 10-32 set screws.

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New sealed bearing in place, set screws installed with locktite and the bell fully assembled again. This ought to hold up nicely to the added motor torque.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by SlowCo » Dec 06 2019 4:34am

A lot of hard work is going into this motor :thumb:

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Revolt RV-160-SH

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 06 2019 1:48pm

It has been a while since this motor was assembled! Nothing is bound with winding thread or painted yet. This is an initial assembly of the motor to run it sensorless.

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Under the bell bottom plate there is about 5/8" of clearance over the windings.

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Under the bell top plate clearance is a bit closer...1/4".

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Revolt RV-160-SH

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 06 2019 2:13pm

I looked back at my goals for this motor.

My goals are:
1. Replace the shielded bearings.
2. Reinforce the shaft to bell union without adding an external reinforcing disk.
3. Add an internal radial fan to the top of the bell.
4. Spray down the bare stator with electrical paint.
5. Rewind for 80kv and maximum copper fill.
6. Spray down the new windings with electrical paint for "in weather use".

1. Done
2. Done
3. Not going to happen in the bell top. Maybe in the bottom of the motor bell, but I am skeptical.
4. Done
5. Done and 2.18X more copper...super happy about this!
6. Not done yet until after the motor is tested sensorless.
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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by DanGT86 » Dec 07 2019 12:15pm

Electric God
I've been casually following this thread since the beginning but I may have missed it. Did you ever get to test the newest series of Revolt motors to compare to the old ones? I was under the impression there were basically 2 generations of these motors. I remember lots of people were disappointed with the first batch of them due to heat, inefficiency, quality etc. I thought somewhere in here you were getting the new generation to compare them to the old ones. kinda lost track in here which motor you are working on and rewinding and which ones were damaged requiring re-work.

It's been interesting watching this thread become an adventure in rewindings and multiple motor rebuilds. Thanks for the detailed documentation of what you are doing. I wish I had the patience and time to rewind motors. I got hooked on ES in the old days watching legends like Thud do awesome things with 80100s. Like many others I was super optimistic when revolt showed up because we all have been wishing for motorcycle powered RC style outrunners. I'd still love to see a test of the new generation in stock form. Did that already happen?

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by spinningmagnets » Dec 07 2019 1:31pm

I apologize to senior members who have technical disagreements with OP ElectricGod. The moderators of endless-sphere have a difficult and thankless job of parsing what to allow to be posted, and what to delete.

I do not agree with everything that EG posts, and yet...he posts pictures and experiments of motors that exist. Even if I disagree with any particular assessment he has made, the raw data of posting pictures of the internals of existing motors has a value that is difficult to assess. The value of these pictures is high and it is rare.

The only thing that is more valuable than tear-down pics of available motors, is a posting of the technical data of motors/controllers/batteries under load.

If you disagree with EG's assessments, the best course of action is to purchase the same motor, and start your own thread. Then post the data from your experimental variations in order to prove your point. The OP always gets a preferential bias in moderating conflicts.

Please avoid personal attacks and personal evaluations. Sometimes brilliant people make a mistake, and sometimes an average person makes a brilliant observation. That being said, you should attack the principle (while providing a reference for your position on the issue), and avoid attacking the person...which leads to me needing to f*ck with all this b*llsh*t.

After you have stated your case, trust the reader to assess who is correct.

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Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by ElectricGod » Dec 09 2019 2:59am

DanGT86 wrote:
Dec 07 2019 12:15pm
Electric God
I've been casually following this thread since the beginning but I may have missed it. Did you ever get to test the newest series of Revolt motors to compare to the old ones? I was under the impression there were basically 2 generations of these motors. I remember lots of people were disappointed with the first batch of them due to heat, inefficiency, quality etc. I thought somewhere in here you were getting the new generation to compare them to the old ones. kinda lost track in here which motor you are working on and rewinding and which ones were damaged requiring re-work.

It's been interesting watching this thread become an adventure in rewindings and multiple motor rebuilds. Thanks for the detailed documentation of what you are doing. I wish I had the patience and time to rewind motors. I got hooked on ES in the old days watching legends like Thud do awesome things with 80100s. Like many others I was super optimistic when revolt showed up because we all have been wishing for motorcycle powered RC style outrunners. I'd still love to see a test of the new generation in stock form. Did that already happen?
There are 3 generations...
1. The Regular motors:
A. May or may not have .5mm laminations. I have an RV-100-Regular and it has .5mm lams. I also have an RV-160-SH and it has .3mm lams.
B. PHase wires tend to small and stator fill is generally not very good.
C. Quality is good in some regards and poor in others.
2. The Pro motors:
A. The RV-100-Pro has .3mm lams. Others have claimed their Pro motor has .5mm lams.
B. Winding fill tends to be better than the Regular motors.
C. Quality tends to be better than the Regular motors.
3. The E motors:
A. As far as I know all the stators use .3mm laminations.
B. Winding fill tends to be pretty good.
C. There are still details where quality isn't great, but better than the Pro motors.

Revolt motors I have:
RV-160-SH
RV-120-Regular
RV-100-Regular
RV-100-Pro
RV-100-E

I have rewound the 120-Pro and the 160-SH

The Regular motors do tend to have the worst efficiency of the 3 series of motors.
The E motors IMHO are the best of the series, but they are not perfect.

I have to admit that I tend to have multiple projects going at any point in time. As a reult, things that I wanted to do don't get done.

For example...
This year I have done very little work on my own EV related projects.
This year I have completed projects for 4 other people.
Those projects include controller and motor mods, various LED builds, machined parts, battery pack builds and other things.
I built an entire scooter for a local friend.
I have been helping a retired school teacher teach kids how to build EV's.
I really wanted to have the RV-120-Regular I rewound in the scooter a long time ago so I could do real testing on it. LOL...still NOT done.

Anyway...yeah...lots of things happened this year and lots of things I wanted to do, just got shelved to do other things.

Specifically the Alien Power C80100 motors have lots of potential. I've got a scooter running one and modded a couple more for projects for others. I have 2 burned out C80100's I acquired not too long ago. I'd like to rewind at least one of them to see what kind of copper fill I can get into it.

Back to Revolt outrunners...
Revolt motors can be pretty good, but they can also be pretty poor. The entire Regular product line that I have seen has significant quality issues. I've spent considerable time emailing Revolt and get very little commitment from them over what I found. Revolt simply does not care to improve their existing product lines. The "way" they do things is to just make a new motor series and ignore the issues with the older motor series. Probably 80% of the things I have told them to fix would literally cost them pennies or maybe a couple of dollars to fix at most. They refuse on all counts.

Does that mean Revolt motors are complete crap? No...the E series are pretty good. The Pro series are OK. The Regular motors from the factory, pretty much suck. Expect to do work on them to make them EV ready.

The other outrunner series I have used a lot is from Alien Power. They too lack quality in some areas and are about equivalent to a Revolt Pro motor. I would not use an AP motor in an EV without doing some modding to it. Every AP outrunner I have ever seen is weak in the shaft to bell union. They use shielded bearings. I have several threads where I present modding various motors. You can see the mods I do to AP motors there.

So back to me...
2020...I have decided I am clearing my plate of EV project work I do for others and then after that I'm just going to be selfish and work on my stuff only. I'll still volunteer with the EV classes for kids. It has been highly enjoyable to help others and I have in the process made some pretty cool stuff for others. I never ask to get paid for my efforts. I do work for others for the love of this hobby and the benefit that others get from my efforts. I ask they pay for the parts I use for their stuff and that's all. I still have 2 or 3 fairly large things to clear away before I'm able to focus on just my stuff. This year, just a guess, but in parts for others, I have purchased something like $10,000 worth of stuff.

The RV-160-SH rewind is not for me...it's one of those projects too.
XB-502: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=83302&p=1222730#p1222730

Currie scooter: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=83830&p=1227407#p1227407

Benjamin Franklin - "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do."

User avatar
fechter   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14381
Joined: Dec 31 2006 3:23pm
Location: California Bay Area, USA

Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by fechter » Dec 09 2019 12:01pm

Sometimes it's not what you say, but how you say it.

Point about doubling the copper fill was if all other things equal, you could cut the copper resistance in half. But resistance heating (the limiting factor for power rating) will be a function of I2R. This means you could only increase the current by a factor of 1.4 and have the same heating. Not double.
"One test is worth a thousand opinions"

larsb   100 kW

100 kW
Posts: 1445
Joined: Dec 10 2014 5:12am
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Revolt RV-series motor review and comparisons

Post by larsb » Dec 21 2019 11:12am

Does that mean Revolt motors are complete crap? No...the E series are pretty good. The Pro series are OK. The Regular motors from the factory, pretty much suck. Expect to do work on them to make them EV ready.
People can make up their own mind:

If you think you can accept to open the new motor you just got, resolder the phase wires and replace the halls, then accept high losses and low performance then it’s possible to get a Revolt motor.

Otherwise, stay away and get something like a QS2000w mid motor instead. It’s better in every aspect.

@EG: do you own a revolt 120 ”E” motor or 160E ? If not then please restrain yourself from talking about things you don’t know anything about.

In your previous posts you have a summary about the quality of the motors you’ve got. I just quoted it in next post so that you remember and people don’t get confused.
Last edited by larsb on Dec 21 2019 12:47pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ride on!

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