A bit disappointed by my BBSHD (from EM3ev)

So let me tell you first that if I had known what would happen in advance I would still have placed the same order because of the lack of alternatives, the BBSHD is a great motor and EM3ev seems to be a great company but I still have a bit of a let down taste in my mouth...

I had 2 problems, first one is I received my motor with a broken fin on the controller side (see photo below). Too me it was clear that this was packaged as received because I couldn't find the fin piece anywhere in the box. EM3ev seemed to disagree with that part and tells me it happened during the shipping (it's true that the polystyrene was pretty beaten up and I suggested using packaging EPE for sending 6kg compact motors but they told me they usually don't have this problem). It seems weird to me but they otherwise acknowledge the problem and agreed to refund 30 EUR from my purchase. It doesn't seem much to me for a 600+ EUR purchase but it's better than nothing I guess. So I said ok and installed the motor. It's just one fin so I guess this won't have any repercussion on thermal dissipation, but I am worried about water-proofing. Should I put some epoxy? What is the shell made of? anything porous? aluminium?



Next problem is those new controllers... with the crappy, unchangeable PAS behavior (use the throttle and start to pedal shuts off the motor in PAS 0, ignores throttle in other PAS settings, what the hell...) Despite having read a lot of literature about the bbshd, I managed to miss that. It seems crazy to me: that i missed it on this forum because there are plenty of reports but also the way the distributors communicate about this... I have been on Luna cycle, EM3ev and many other distributors's BBSHD page before the purchase, NONE of them is mentioning this problem... That's really not nice. And of course what the hell is going on with Bafang? When are they going to revert their controllers firmware, this has be going on for months, they can't possibly think that this PAS behavior is better... So now I am pondering depotting and modifying a brand new controller from an expensive new motor... I have read here that Luna Cycle had been sending some old controllers to customers with that problem, but EM3ev unfortunately told me they don't have some (too bad, that would have solved the broken fin as well).

Here is a last bonus question: my unit doesn't seems to go over 27A at the moment, is this normal? or can you make it go to full 30A with the bafang cable? (I have the DCP14 display) 3A is not much but i'd like to know. Unfortunately I don't have the programming cable because EM3ev doesn't have them.

I have to say that I am still satisfied with my purchase, the BBSHD is super silent (which is the main raison I chose it as well as the PAS...) and EM3ev is great to communicate with, which is a first for a company based in China for me. I don't want to deter anybody from making the same purchase but I hope people will order knowing that new controller crap.

EDIT: some grammar...

The broken fin is just cosmetic and won't affect the performance at all. I'd just file it down so there are no sharp edges and give it a little black paint.

27A is pretty close to 30A. The accuracy of the current measurement isn't great, so I'd say that's within the expected tolerance.

The PAS behavior is a PITA. There are a couple of threads on how to fix this. 90% of the time I just use throttle only, so unplugging the PAS sensor works. The little Darlington transistor modification makes it all work properly.

That's just a cosmetic problem because it's made of aluminum. Sucks to hear that they didn't catch that at em3ev.

Bafang has a history of shitty controllers across the line and have always been unrefined.. i was totally unhappy with my circa 2014 BBS02 because of the pedal offset on one side ( aggravates a bone deformity i have on that side which is the cause of arthritis at a young age ) and the on-off switch characteristic of the throttle after ripping the PAS sensor out because i was tired of the start/stop delay and chain shredding action of the PAS ( this was before the gear sensor was invented )

I rode a recent BBSHD conversion and the throttle response was still bad and the PAS still had that delay in turning the power on and off..

Best thing you can do is run an external controller on these, especially if you want to run more power.. because the controller will no longer be sharing a heat space with the motor.

Thanks guys,

I am leaning towards the transistor mod, I might change the caps and up the voltage and amps while I'm at it. There is no way I'm removing PAS altogether for now although i do use the throttle a lot. If I would (it's true that the delayed response is also annoying), the grin phaserunner seems awesome but noisy. ERT had a cheap one that seemed great but apparently discontinued it, don't know why.

Neptronix, also have arthritis at 32 because of some accident... I feel you...

The turn off delay is annoying but necessary with no torque sensing. If you pedal backwards, it will stop instantly. This is a good work around.

There haven't been good results with upping the voltage. Increasing the current seems to work OK as long as you don't overheat things.

I have read here that 18s pack were fine (after switching caps), could you point me towards the problems I might encounter?
Current I wouldn't go over 45A and I'll try to have an external switch so I could switch it on only when I need it. But yeah, it's too bad that we don't have motor temp on those displays...

Thanks

Somebody made 18s work, so I guess it can be done. The main caps get to be undersized when you increase the voltage rating. You need more capacitance. There is not enough room inside for more. Perhaps if you get really low ESR ones it would be OK but hard to know the real ESR of the caps without testing.

Motor temp and battery amp-hours would have been nice. There are sensors for both already in there, but not sent to the display.

Another option for the PAS fix that somebody suggested is to use a Domino throttle which has a micro switch built in that could just be wired to the PAS connector.

Keep in mind that luna blew this controller at 50A. Might wanna stop at 40.. especially if you're bumping the voltage that far.

Pedaling cadence will = unpedalable on 18s as well; just keep that in mind.

Double the power ( 52v x 40A ) would probably be ideal. These drives aren't exactly overbuilt. Once you find the limit of the controller and stator, you're probably gonna find the limit of the secondary reduction gear, bike chain, etc next.

I've got no experience with the bbsHD, but i've seen plenty of secondary gears on BBS02's die on 48-52v and stock amperage.

Yeah wasn't thinking of the pedaling cadence and I am pretty satisfied with the power right now with my 15s at 30A. Won't do anything for now. If I can't handle the PAS, will probably just fix that part. Thanks a lot

The broken fin may only be a cosmetic issue,..but the question is , how did it get broken ?
Most likely the motor was dropped onto something hard...or had somthing hard dropped on it.
It takes quite a wollop to snap off a fin,..so just be wary of any other possible issues that are not visible ,.( cracked castings, etc)
You should not have to accept that kind of damage on a $600 item. But i know claims and returns are a pain.

It ha been my impression that BBSHDs are easy to reprogram so that they meet the user's expectations in terms of power onset, assist levels, etc. Is this only true for some of them?

I was happy enough with my BBS02 that all I did to change it electronically was set the number of assist levels to 9 instead of 5. I didn't need a programming cable or a laptop for that. But I did change the crank arms for shorter length and narrower tread width.

IMO, nothing less than a replacement where they payed the extra shipping charges would suffice. They should have checked the motor before shipping it to you. Sending a product like that is ridiculous.

I can't say enough good about EM3ev. Both Paul and Joseph respond to emails in 24hrs with an apology for the delay. At least they aren't relying on forums to do their tech support!

I too got a HD with throttle issues. I had no idea it wasn't going to work like my 02 ver1.
If I pedaled and used the throttle it was like an on off switch. I could use throttle in PAS0 fine but if I pedaled in PAS0 and throttle it was full on throttle, so pedal input was there even in PAS0.
Paul gave me a new .el file to try and he sent out a replacement controller.
This new file was a better start for sure. PAS0 throttle barely works at all at 27w though. This should just be made to have any throttle at all. I tried for several hours changing things with no luck improving. If I got throttle to work well in PAS0, then the switch syndrome was back again in all PAS levels. I opted to have throttle in all PAS levels except in PAS0. I just can't get it to work right.
The throttle works in all PAS levels now while I pedal. I usually start off not pedaling and use a little throttle then let PAS take over. You can over ride PAS when using throttle but not till you throttle past the load the PAS is using at the time which is fine. It has throttle power levels that are on par with the PAS level you are in plus a bit more. At this point it doesn't give 100% throttle power until you are in PAS9.
I didn't like the delays in stopping so I changed those settings and also changed the throttle to be more progressive and ramp up much slower in PAS levels.
View attachment 2
Maybe someone else can fine tune this so PAS0 throttle works without effecting the way the throttle works in all other PAS levels.

This is on a 26x4" Fat BIke with 30T prototype steel chainring I made and 13-30 7sp freewheel.

Hillhater, 2old: It does leave me uncertain about the future... Not a nice feeling. I have been testing the motor the best I could and there was no strange noise, behavior or anything. Motor is super silent. If I was in the US right now, I would have ordered with Luna (or another local distributor) but in Europe we don't have a Luna... distributors sell (crappy) BBSHD kits for 1150+ USD, this is ridiculous...

Chalo, geekocycles: If my knowledge is correct, there are 2 firmwares: one for the controller, inaccessible, and one for the display. It's that last one that can be modified with the cable. Unfortunately the problem with the new controller is their firmware that has been changed. Unfortunately, I didn't knew that before ordering, I though you could fully tweak behavior with the display firmware. It's really a shame that no distributor seems open about the controller change... I am sure you can compensate that crap with tweaks to the display but it feels a bit like putting lipstick on a pig to me... Thanks for the el file anyway, will definitely try it if I can get my hand on a programming cable.
Communication with Joseph was great apart from that "occurred in shipping" bit which I truly didn't understand... I really would have appreciated at least a new controller for sure. But you're saying Paul actually sent you a new one and it behave like the first one? That would confirm that they don't hold any of the older ones as Joseph told me.

Nice 30T chainring, I have a 36T Bling ring which is great but 30T would be better as I would like to upgrade my drivetrain with 7-speed 25T (currently have 9-speed 32T. This is pretty much spot on for power climbing about anything)

EDIT: should have mentioned my bike is a 26 inch trail bike. I live in the Alps, all sorts of hills here (;

You can do very little through the display. You must have the programming cable to program the controller and to add the .el file and modify it if needed.

Paul sent me a new controller and the .el file to try first. I did not use the new controller, not yet anyway. The controllers have Bafang
.el files loaded which is terrible for my liking anyways. Everyone has their own way they would like to have the controller behave and Bafang is loading these things with some kind of motor safe settings for the consumer. I modified the .el that Paul sent me. Here is his original file he sent. View attachment KB_test.el.txt

I chose a 7sp so I could use a beefier chain and get better chain line. Fat Bikes take a ton of power and thus will wear out a cheap drive train in no time. That is why I made a steel 30T chain ring. I am making a 29T for it as well. I don't think I can go much smaller without negatively effecting the chain line. The .el file is for a 26" Fat which is 29" wheel in the controller and the display settings.

I live in CO and there is no shortage of mountains here.
I have no issues with my MTB with 26x2.12" tires. I use a NuVinci 360 which can barely handle the power of the 02ver1 but with some help from pedal and gearing it is holding up. I doubt that it will hold up with the HD power. I have a Rohloff wheel that I am almost ready to try if I could get the gear off and put on a larger one that I have. I broke the removal tool yesterday and that buggered up the hub some. What I like about the IGH is you can use a 1/8" HD track chain and chain line is perfect so no issues that you get with a multispeed freewheel. I recently did the Pearl Pass ride on the Moots and used only 2.3V out of the 14V available on my 18.5 mile climb which I bonked on just .5 miles from the top. I guess I took it too easy on the battery and should of throttled more. LOL There wasnot one spot I had to hike a bike on. I would not do a trail like this with no suspension. The unsprung and sprung weight is just too much to have a tire hold up. You just can't get lite on such a heavy bike and will pinch flat. I got a flat on the ride and then it went flat again on the rack. This rack held the bike very well even after the tire went flat after I strapped it down. I made this rack for the Fat.


View attachment 1

geckocycles said:

I too got a HD with throttle issues. I had no idea it wasn't going to work like my 02 ver1.
If I pedaled and used the throttle it was like an on off switch. I could use throttle in PAS0 fine but if I pedaled in PAS0 and throttle it was full on throttle, so pedal input was there even in PAS0.
Paul gave me a new .el file to try and he sent out a replacement controller.
This new file was a better start for sure. PAS0 throttle barely works at all at 27w though. This should just be made to have any throttle at all. I tried for several hours changing things with no luck improving. If I got throttle to work well in PAS0, then the switch syndrome was back again in all PAS levels. I opted to have throttle in all PAS levels except in PAS0. I just can't get it to work right.
The throttle works in all PAS levels now while I pedal. I usually start off not pedaling and use a little throttle then let PAS take over. You can over ride PAS when using throttle but not till you throttle past the load the PAS is using at the time which is fine. It has throttle power levels that are on par with the PAS level you are in plus a bit more. At this point it doesn't give 100% throttle power until you are in PAS9.
I didn't like the delays in stopping so I changed those settings and also changed the throttle to be more progressive and ramp up much slower in PAS levels.

Click to expand...

It's really a bug in the Bafang firmware, or maybe intentional and they just never tried riding an actual bike with it.

The little darlington transistor mod I did really solves the problem nicely. I ride in PAS 0 most of the time and it just operates like a normal throttle should. In all the other settings, the moment you advance the throttle off zero, the PAS is disabled and it goes to throttle mode.

How to fix:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=93977

fechter said:

geckocycles said:

I too got a HD with throttle issues. I had no idea it wasn't going to work like my 02 ver1.
If I pedaled and used the throttle it was like an on off switch. I could use throttle in PAS0 fine but if I pedaled in PAS0 and throttle it was full on throttle, so pedal input was there even in PAS0.
Paul gave me a new .el file to try and he sent out a replacement controller.
This new file was a better start for sure. PAS0 throttle barely works at all at 27w though. This should just be made to have any throttle at all. I tried for several hours changing things with no luck improving. If I got throttle to work well in PAS0, then the switch syndrome was back again in all PAS levels. I opted to have throttle in all PAS levels except in PAS0. I just can't get it to work right.
The throttle works in all PAS levels now while I pedal. I usually start off not pedaling and use a little throttle then let PAS take over. You can over ride PAS when using throttle but not till you throttle past the load the PAS is using at the time which is fine. It has throttle power levels that are on par with the PAS level you are in plus a bit more. At this point it doesn't give 100% throttle power until you are in PAS9.
I didn't like the delays in stopping so I changed those settings and also changed the throttle to be more progressive and ramp up much slower in PAS levels.

Click to expand...

It's really a bug in the Bafang firmware, or maybe intentional and they just never tried riding an actual bike with it.

The little darlington transistor mod I did really solves the problem nicely. I ride in PAS 0 most of the time and it just operates like a normal throttle should. In all the other settings, the moment you advance the throttle off zero, the PAS is disabled and it goes to throttle mode.

How to fix:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=93977

Click to expand...

I got a bunch of those resistors to do that mod. Thanks for figuring it out. I'm going to see how I like this program for a bit first before opening up the controller. The throttle works well in all PAS levels except PAS0 for the most part. 27W in PAS0 is hardly working and as soon as there is any speed registered you even loose that 27W but you have to be off the bike to register any speed. The throttle is limited by the PAS level though, not 100% in all levels. It does give you a bit more power than just PAS level. I will probably try fine tuning the .el later, I am just tired of plugging and unplugging the cable for every little change I make. I have well over 20 hrs of experimenting and getting burned out. I must have plugged in that cable 100 times or more which is not very easy. I should remove the rubber on the USB cable to make it easier to plug in and remove. My OCD needs a different focus for now. LOL
I would certainly try this .el file before resistor mod and see how you like it.