Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

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Another big order going in for high power cells!

Postby jonescg » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:37 am

Shout out to Aussie Hi-Power electric projects!

Another big order will be going in for these 5000 mAh, 30C/60C pouch cells from FEP. The cost price landed is $16 per cell. If you want me to build a battery for you I can do that too - the final cost ends up being about $1.12 per Wh, for a built pack with no BMS or enclosure, give or take a little.

I have commitment for at least 500 cells, but would like to get this order over 1000 if possible - this should lower the unit price a bit too.

Hope to place the order very soon (in the next 2 weeks) so get in touch!

Chris
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby jonescg » Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:58 am

Just finished a little nugget for a pretty cool EV Challenge bike:

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I've ordered more PCBs and copper, and a cell order is going in at the end of the week. Let me know if you're in!

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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby jonescg » Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:38 am

Hey guys, last chance - I'm placing the order on Monday. Getting a few extras while I can, but if you want more chime in.
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby jonescg » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:23 am

Been busy in the shed lately.

16s3p with BMUs.jpg
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This little pack is 16s3p (60 volts, 15 Ah), which is likely to be sold shortly. I have also got a 14s3p pack on the way (48 volts, 15 Ah). The battery monitoring modules are the same ones used on Voltron. All they do is monitor cells. If a cell goes out of spec the normally conducting loop goes open circuit so you can use this to release a relay which is indicating green/red up on the dash, or sound a buzzer. This particular battery also has hole spacings on the insulating board to suit the ZEVA BMS modules. Unfortunately you need two modules as they only go up to 12s, so space is tight.

Edit - this battery is sold :)
16s3p pack done.jpg
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New kit is on its way!
Last edited by jonescg on Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby jmetric » Sat Mar 04, 2017 12:49 am

you wrote:If a cell goes out of spec the normally conducting loop goes open circuit so you can use this to release a relay which is indicating green/red up on the dash, or sound a buzzer.

Voltron, I would like to build a simple top balancer or really a top discharger. I would like to set a setting or hardwire in a voltage like 4.100V and have a unit that
when the pack is full it would slowly drain all the cells down to 4.10V
this little board can trigger a relay, so I suppose it could trigger a relay on that cell to put it across something like a 4watt resistor?

Can you see that working with that system?

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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby jonescg » Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:45 am

jmetric wrote:you wrote:If a cell goes out of spec the normally conducting loop goes open circuit so you can use this to release a relay which is indicating green/red up on the dash, or sound a buzzer.

Voltron, I would like to build a simple top balancer or really a top discharger. I would like to set a setting or hardwire in a voltage like 4.100V and have a unit that
when the pack is full it would slowly drain all the cells down to 4.10V
this little board can trigger a relay, so I suppose it could trigger a relay on that cell to put it across something like a 4watt resistor?

Can you see that working with that system?

John Metric


Sounds a lot like a balancing BMS... :) Rod is working on a Version 3 of this BMS, and it will feature a 50 mA shunt current. Even ZEVA's BMS does this already, but it requires a CAN interface to get it to do things. Part of the appeal of this BMS is the simplicity - very analogue. However the lack of balancing is a bit annoying.

You can get the tripped relay to even put a resistor in series with the throttle so you have turtle mode - again, a rather analogue way of doing it but effective. If you wanted it to enable a relay which put a load across the high cell, you would need a means to turn it off when it got to 4.1 V.
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby jonescg » Sun Mar 05, 2017 3:41 am

Hi all,

I just finished this little 20s2p (74 V, 10 Ah) battery. It's capable of 200 amps continuous (20 C) and the manufacturer claims 60 C burst. I melt 8 gauge wiring at 20 C so I don't see a lot of point in testing it any harder. The enclosure is made of 3 mm clear polycarbonate and the cells are held in place with polyurethane adhesive. If a cell should ever bomb out, which I am confident won't happen due to the vetting process I put it through, the cells are replaceable thanks to the screw termination system. You will spend all day doing it though. This adhesive is sturdy stuff.

I can put any connector you like on it, likewise charging leads can be managed via the terminals with ring-lugs. The balance ports are Molex 2.54 mm pitch connectors, 10 each. This battery doesn't come with a BMS, but you can easily solder the new BMS wire harness to the existing wires to make it work. Bear in mind the space inside is 10 mm deep, so it would want to be a fairly compact BMS.

Outside dimensions are (LxWxH) 189 mm x 106 mm x 164 mm, weight is 5.8 kg complete.

It is for sale - $950 plus shipping anywhere in Australia (Austpost will come to about $60 I think).

20s2p pack complete2.jpg
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20s2p pack complete.jpg
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby Rube » Mon Mar 06, 2017 4:35 am

Awesome, so much power in such a small form factor. Like all of you batteries I wish my current setup could accommodate the dimensions. Lesson for the next build. Are the enclosure bolts M1?
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby jonescg » Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:06 am

Rube wrote:Awesome, so much power in such a small form factor. Like all of you batteries I wish my current setup could accommodate the dimensions. Lesson for the next build. Are the enclosure bolts M1?


M3. The end plates are 4.5 mm thick, so they take a thread very well.

There are other ways to put them together, but this is by far the easiest and most convenient layout.
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby jonescg » Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:52 pm

Quick bump to let folks know I will have a good 80-odd cells spare form the last order, so I have enough cells to build a 1.5 kWh pack.

Here is a nice compact and powerful 22s4p pack I just finished.

22s4p on balance.jpg
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I'm still working on the BMS. It uses the NC loop but said NC loop needs a 12 V supply. I bought a 7W DC DC converter so some fiddling will be required to get it to work. Otherwise it's ready to go. It will just fit inside one of SamD's frames.
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby Rube » Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:10 am

Regarding dimensions a quick look at the first post indicates these cell are:
- 145mm height (withconnectors)
- 50mm width
- 20.7mm thickness/ cell (approx)
Is that about right?
Add min 3mm per side to these dimensions for Lexan enclosure?
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby jonescg » Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:59 am

Yes these cells are 8.2 mm thick, 50 mm wide and 135 mm long, up to the tabs. A built pack will fit inside an enclosure measuring 100 mm wide, 158 mm high and as long as your capacity and voltage dictate. The 158 high means there is a comfortable 10 mm for a BMS on top.
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby Rube » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:21 am

Thanks Chris, I'm interested in configuring these into a 52V pack to power a tangent drive for the next project. Off the top of my head that would be 14S/3P.
Need to check available space.
When you say 100mm wide enclosure I'm thinking you mean cells side by side?
Thanks for your help.
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby boytitan » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:06 am

How small would a 52v 8ah pack be ?
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby jonescg » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:34 pm

Yes the inside dimensions would need to be 100 mm wide and 158 mm tall.

Because I use 3 mm polycarbonate sides and 4.5 mm endplates, the final dimensions end up being 106 mm wide, 164 mm tall, and (8.2 x (s/2) x p + 9) mm long, where s and p refer to series and parallel requirements.

Boytitan, The closest I can get for you is a 10 Ah pack. 14s2p complete with enclosure (but no BMS) is about $700.
Last edited by jonescg on Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:30 pm, edited 2 times in total. View post history.
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby jonescg » Mon Mar 27, 2017 2:37 am

In case anyone is interested, this is how I use the NC loop on the EV-Power BMS modules to sound the alarm that your cells are out of spec:



The buzzer, relay and LEDs are powered by the DC/DC converter which has a quiescent current of about 8 mA. Not much, but you wouldn't want to park the bike on empty and forget about it. Always put a switch in series with the V+ input.
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby jonescg » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:28 am

Battery building update!

The great news is that I have streamlined several of the steps involved in manufacturing the screw-terminated battery packs. The enclosures are easily fabricated in a week to any size and shape, while the new PCBs allow for a really compact battery. The next instalment of 550 cells arrived, and the process of checking cell voltages, hole punching each tab and trimming the tabs to the right length can be quite tedious.

Latest LiPo delivery.jpg
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The latest batch of 30C/60C cells have come in and thanks to a bit of innovative design from Strike Products in Wangara, I can now hole-punch 550 cells in a few hours. Normally it took a whole day just to punch holes.

DoubleHolepunch.jpg
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And here's a 1-minute video on how it works:


The end result is a cell with both tabs hole-punched, making for a PERFECT alignment of tab, hole and brass nut.

12s5p pack terminated.jpg
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These 12s5p units are destined to go into some high powered go-karts as a 24s5p arrangement. I'm putting half of them together and Mike will put the rest together himself.

4 x 12s5p kit.jpg
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I'm at a point where I reckon I can start shipping kits to folks overseas, or locally, if you are keen to source the cells yourself. However It's not a huge amount of work for me to put it together. The main cost of these kits is the parts, not the labour!

As before, selling complete batteries, without enclosures or BMS, for about AUD$1150 per kWh. Plus GST. Yes, Voltron Motorcycles is now registered for GST.
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby Arlo1 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:53 am

Great Work Chris!
My Leaf motor controller build. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
My YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
RC and most types of Lithium batteries you MUST know your individual cell voltages charging and discharging.
Don't keep them were you cant afford smoke or fire!
Never above 4.2v never below 2.7v EVER!!!
HI power controller design. Game Changer
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby nuxland » Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:55 am

I'm very tempted to make myself another lightweight pack for my go-kart. But I was thinking of 28s6p variant. Right now I'm using ~20Ah in 10 laps of racing and 6p will give me 30Ah, so using 66% of the pack will be good for the pack :) 28s because I want to get maximum rpm without using field weakening so as much as my Sevcon can handle 119V :) And 6p will not get hot also with 300A-600A current, because it's only between 10C to 20C :)
For the cells alone it would be around 28x6x16$=2688$ (I assume australian dollars?) Can you give me rough estimate about other stuff I need.
It's a pity I can't order less than 500 cells from China myself, cos I only need 200pcs.
For the BMS I would use zeva, but as one can handle 12s then I need 3 of them.
In my kart I have room for 500mm long and 227mm width pack. So it would be 2 rows of 14s6p. I would be then 344mm in length and 206mm width. So I will have 156mm left for bms and dc/dc and olimex and display and etc.
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Re: Assembled Hi-Power LiPo battery packs - any interest?

Postby jonescg » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:42 am

nuxland wrote:I'm very tempted to make myself another lightweight pack for my go-kart. But I was thinking of 28s6p variant. Right now I'm using ~20Ah in 10 laps of racing and 6p will give me 30Ah, so using 66% of the pack will be good for the pack :) 28s because I want to get maximum rpm without using field weakening so as much as my Sevcon can handle 119V :) And 6p will not get hot also with 300A-600A current, because it's only between 10C to 20C :)
For the cells alone it would be around 28x6x16$=2688$ (I assume australian dollars?) Can you give me rough estimate about other stuff I need.
It's a pity I can't order less than 500 cells from China myself, cos I only need 200pcs.
For the BMS I would use zeva, but as one can handle 12s then I need 3 of them.
In my kart I have room for 500mm long and 227mm width pack. So it would be 2 rows of 14s6p. I would be then 344mm in length and 206mm width. So I will have 156mm left for bms and dc/dc and olimex and display and etc.


28s6p is a big kart pack. I'm impressed you can fit a battery that big. A 6p pack is good for 600 amps continuous, so no worries on the power side of things :)
Depends how it fits on the kart, but would it be better split it up as two packs of 14s6p on either side? Either way, sounds like a cool machine!
The enclosure would do well to have a central divider of 4.5 mm polycarbonate for added strength, as well as some electrical insulation from one side to the other. So the final size would be 353.4 mm long, 210.5 mm wide, and 164 mm tall.

If you lived in Australia, the price for a built pack would be roughly:

$ 2688 for the cells
$ 170 for the PCBs
$ 150 for the jet-cut copper buslinks
$ 300 for the enclosure (could be more or less, depends on the complexity)
$ 462 for the BMS
$ 470 in labour (yeah, I'm cheap)
______________
$ 4240 Australian dollars :shock: Hey at least you don't have to pay the GST!

If I could find a way of shipping it, it would probably add about $400-$500 to the price. Several firms will ship, but it must go by sea freight and road freight. I assume it would land in Italy and go by road to Estonia?
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