DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Place for dealers to post items for sale.

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby 999zip999 » Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:25 pm

Matador where's the 7s balance wire's for a cell checker ? Bms or not. You need to know.
999zip999
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 7938
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:40 pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby Matador » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:59 pm

999zip999 wrote:Matador where's the 7s balance wire's for a cell checker ? Bms or not. You need to know.


You're right ! I went experimental on this one today... Went skydiving this noon. Went for burgers and beer after. Then, I came back home, I hooked up my batteries and went riding from 8:45 to 10:20 PM. I did exactly 30 km.
Started at a 58.1 V charge (around 95+ % SOC)
Ended at a 52.1 V charge (around 50-60% SOC)
I didn't take the time to hook up my BMS or to hook up a cell log.

Note that it's at 52.1V now, I will not bulk charge it... I fear some imbalance might result in some P groups being overcharged.
Temps have reached 60-65°C... But feeling with my hands, I know it comes from the cells, as they are hot, while the connectors screw and bussbars felt barely warm if not just ambiant temp. BUT hey, that's to expect from 10 years old laptop cells ! Just the 14S8P cells inside the pack, togoether cause around 250 mOhm (calculated, from individual cells DC IR)...

I checked each cell with my mastercraft multimeter and cool them with a fan now. I read from 1S to 14S
3.76
3.78
3.70
3.76
3.73
3.74
3.75
3.66
3.67
3.74
3.76
3.71
3.74
3.76

Note that before starting (58.1V), some cells were at 4.17 while others where 4.12 V...
I will balance charge with an Imax B6 tomorrow when I can supervise... Then I could hook a BMS... Or just trash these old laptop cells and use my VTC4 (but they're good to up to 30A/cell !)

Anyways, in this experiment, using my 30A BBSHD (60% of time at PAS2/5 (600W) going 35 km/h, 25% at PAS 5/5 (1500W) going 50-52 km/h, 15% time Throttle mode only on the 5/5 setting 55-60 km/h), the Vruzend kit won the battle over the cells themselves... Love it !
Last edited by Matador on Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
User avatar
Matador
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:00 pm
Location: Quebec City, QC, Canada

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby mlt34 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:03 am

Matador wrote:
mlt34 wrote:Creative! Is it running all the way down the parallel group, under the SS busbars? Or just connected to that first post?


All the way down the 8P group.
But it occured to me, current between cells of a same 8P groupe don't exchange much current between themselves (few milliamps maybe, by parallele balancing all the time).
It's more the series connections that would benefit from copper since each one of the 8 paths could see up to 3.75A in the case of my bbshd controller setup.

Matador


Yes, that's true for all the groups except for the first and last group. Because the power wire is connected on the end of the group, the current actually does run all the way down the parallel group. But since you have the copper running the whole length of the 8p group, you're fine.
Are you planning your first electric bicycle conversion? I wrote a book that teaches beginners everything they need to know about building their own ebike.
Then I wrote the book (literally) on building custom lithium batteries.
I also write for EbikeSchool.com, a site that does mainly how-to style articles and other informational write-ups. Check out our youtube channel for great how-to battery building videos.
Lastly, I run www.Vruzend.com, which sells solderless 18650 battery kits, 18650 cells, li-ion chargers, BMSs and more!
User avatar
mlt34
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1443
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:23 pm
Location: Florida/Tel Aviv

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby mlt34 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:08 am

Matador, that's some great performance for old laptop cells, impressive! But you're absolutely right, no bulk charging, especially for salvaged cells. Either balance charge or use a BMS. If you have to bulk charge, and you have an adjustable charger, set it for something like 4.0V per cell, just to be safe and ensure you don't overcharge any groups.

There is some unbalancing of the cells, which is to be expected with salvaged cells, but considering that they started at different voltages, it's really not that bad of an imbalance after a ride.
Are you planning your first electric bicycle conversion? I wrote a book that teaches beginners everything they need to know about building their own ebike.
Then I wrote the book (literally) on building custom lithium batteries.
I also write for EbikeSchool.com, a site that does mainly how-to style articles and other informational write-ups. Check out our youtube channel for great how-to battery building videos.
Lastly, I run www.Vruzend.com, which sells solderless 18650 battery kits, 18650 cells, li-ion chargers, BMSs and more!
User avatar
mlt34
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1443
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:23 pm
Location: Florida/Tel Aviv

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby Matador » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:21 am

mlt34 wrote:
Matador wrote:
mlt34 wrote:Creative! Is it running all the way down the parallel group, under the SS busbars? Or just connected to that first post?


All the way down the 8P group.
But it occured to me, current between cells of a same 8P groupe don't exchange much current between themselves (few milliamps maybe, by parallele balancing all the time).
It's more the series connections that would benefit from copper since each one of the 8 paths could see up to 3.75A in the case of my bbshd controller setup.

Matador


Yes, that's true for all the groups except for the first and last group. Because the power wire is connected on the end of the group, the current actually does run all the way down the parallel group. But since you have the copper running the whole length of the 8p group, you're fine.


Yes, good point.

I actually have 4 copper bussbars (1.7 mm thick x 8 mm wide), each running the whole lengt of the concerned 8P group : 2 bussbar at each end of the big 4AWG cable between the two 7P blocks, one bussbar for the negative wire and one bussbar for the positive wire. I calculated a cross sectionnal area of roughly equivalent to 6AWG copper wire, which should be more than enough for the
Last edited by Matador on Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
User avatar
Matador
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:00 pm
Location: Quebec City, QC, Canada

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby Matador » Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:32 am

mlt34 wrote:Matador, that's some great performance for old laptop cells, impressive! But you're absolutely right, no bulk charging, especially for salvaged cells. Either balance charge or use a BMS. If you have to bulk charge, and you have an adjustable charger, set it for something like 4.0V per cell, just to be safe and ensure you don't overcharge any groups.

There is some unbalancing of the cells, which is to be expected with salvaged cells, but considering that they started at different voltages, it's really not that bad of an imbalance after a ride.


Yes.
I'm now wondering what to choose.
Option 1) I've got some cells logs.
Option 2) Two BMS ANN086-14S-30A I recieved form you that I could use 14S 30A (60mA balance discharge current)... Was considering using them in 2 Tigers shark battery boxes.
Option 3) I also have a BesTech Power HCX-D131 14S 80A BMS (160 mA balance dicharge current.... agressive balancing might be well suited for laptop cells)
Option 4) Just ditch the laptop cells now that I tested the Vruzend kit and knows it works well in my setup
Option 5) I have a 3 postion 52V 5amp charger from EM3EV. I coulde bulk charge at 90% SOC... But even with that, I would monitor the cells...

I'm thinking I should just reserve those old laptop cells to make a big 12V battery for other stuff and move on to my Sony VTC4 wich are very high drain cells.

The laptop cells are impressive in this case (I very carefully picked up only the good cherries in a 250 lot of scavendged cells :
Laptop Li-Ion (v2).xlsx
(2.29 MiB) Downloaded 18 times
Li-Ion.xlsx
(2.4 MiB) Downloaded 11 times
),
but I think they will degrade fast because a 30A BBSHD is a bit over the top for them at 8P (3.75A peak).

I love the Vruzend kits. So far they handle the power it without any problem.
Last edited by Matador on Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:34 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
User avatar
Matador
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:00 pm
Location: Quebec City, QC, Canada

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby 999zip999 » Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:34 pm

Going to have buy more kits.
999zip999
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 7938
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:40 pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby rowbiker » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:25 am

Matador -- very impressive presentation of data for used cells, thanks! Did you document somewhere your testing setup? Apparently you're using an Imax charger; is it the source for the data, or do you have other components/hardware that you use?
rowbiker
10 W
10 W
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:36 pm
Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota USA

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby 999zip999 » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:06 am

Best to use new cells. Used cells can die and leave unbalanced pack. Plus the many many hours needed to test record and match cells. I think he went thru 250 cells for 112 cells. Nice to find out how long it last before one cell goes and you have to find it in your pack.
999zip999
100 GW
100 GW
 
Posts: 7938
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 1:40 pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby Matador » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:26 pm

rowbiker wrote:Matador -- very impressive presentation of data for used cells, thanks! Did you document somewhere your testing setup? Apparently you're using an Imax charger; is it the source for the data, or do you have other components/hardware that you use?


Tanks Rowbiker, I learn a lots about Li-Ion batteries in the process
Actually, for single cell capacity testing, I used the Foxnovo Digital Charger 4S : viewtopic.php?f=14&t=86556&p=1266049&hilit=foxnovo#p1266049
I have three of these device, so I can test twelve cells at the same time (charge mAh and Discharge mAh).
For voltage drop in time, I either used Mastercaft cheap multimeter or CellLog 8M
For DCIR measurement, I used an ammeter, a voltmeter and some resistors
User avatar
Matador
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:00 pm
Location: Quebec City, QC, Canada

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby Matador » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:29 pm

999zip999 wrote:Best to use new cells. Used cells can die and leave unbalanced pack. Plus the many many hours needed to test record and match cells. I think he went thru 250 cells for 112 cells. Nice to find out how long it last before one cell goes and you have to find it in your pack.


I agree wih you 999zip999. Used laptop cells are just too much trouble to deal with...
For me, this was more of a pedagogic experience.
It is much more cost effective to go with new cells than going through the trouble of testing each cell that are so old (long calender life) and could die any moment, or worst, short themselve out...
Last edited by Matador on Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:10 pm, edited 2 times in total. View post history.
User avatar
Matador
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:00 pm
Location: Quebec City, QC, Canada

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby mlt34 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:29 am

Matador wrote:I used the Foxnovo Digital Charger 4S


I have one of those, but I think it lies to me. When I choose 1/2A discharge, it does more like a quarter. And when I choose 1A discharge, it does more like 1/2A. Other than that, it works well. Does yours do the same thing?
Are you planning your first electric bicycle conversion? I wrote a book that teaches beginners everything they need to know about building their own ebike.
Then I wrote the book (literally) on building custom lithium batteries.
I also write for EbikeSchool.com, a site that does mainly how-to style articles and other informational write-ups. Check out our youtube channel for great how-to battery building videos.
Lastly, I run www.Vruzend.com, which sells solderless 18650 battery kits, 18650 cells, li-ion chargers, BMSs and more!
User avatar
mlt34
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1443
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:23 pm
Location: Florida/Tel Aviv

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby banjaxxed » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:48 am

Progress is slow Image
banjaxxed
10 mW
10 mW
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:16 am

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby mlt34 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:13 am

banjaxxed, what is the material in the wire making the series connections?
Are you planning your first electric bicycle conversion? I wrote a book that teaches beginners everything they need to know about building their own ebike.
Then I wrote the book (literally) on building custom lithium batteries.
I also write for EbikeSchool.com, a site that does mainly how-to style articles and other informational write-ups. Check out our youtube channel for great how-to battery building videos.
Lastly, I run www.Vruzend.com, which sells solderless 18650 battery kits, 18650 cells, li-ion chargers, BMSs and more!
User avatar
mlt34
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1443
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:23 pm
Location: Florida/Tel Aviv

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby rowbiker » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:22 am

Matador wrote:Actually, for single cell capacity testing, I used ...


Thanks, that's the information I was looking for.

I'm well aware of the arguments favoring the use of new cells, and indeed have spent thousands of dollars over the years on new battery packs made of the various flavors of lipos and li-ions. But, like many on this forum, it's "peace of mind" I'm after, not a "fixed machine." My current (pun intended) collection of 'used batteries', and experimenting with them, goes back to the flat-pack PolaPulse batteries that Polaroid included in it's 4x5" view camera film back in the 70's. They're still holding a charge, btw... I have no idea what chemistry they used.

My major goal in life now is to live long enough to witness a battery revolution that follows Moore's Law. :-)
rowbiker
10 W
10 W
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:36 pm
Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota USA

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby rowbiker » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:32 am

banjaxxed wrote:Progress is slow


"You had me at 'Progress'" ...
rowbiker
10 W
10 W
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:36 pm
Location: Saint Paul, Minnesota USA

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby banjaxxed » Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:22 pm

mlt34 wrote:banjaxxed, what is the material in the wire making the series connections?



Hey the material for the series connections is 2mm sliver plated copper wire, 3mm brass nuts, bolts and washers.
1mm silver-plated beryilium copper springs, handmade, so my hands have had to make some sacrifices to the diety of blood, it's taking some time to gets through all the parellel rows.
12mm pure nickel strips

I was thinking of using some silver solder to solder the series connections to the brass bolt/nickel, worthwhile?
Last edited by banjaxxed on Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
banjaxxed
10 mW
10 mW
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:16 am

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby Matador » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:31 pm

mlt34 wrote:
Matador wrote:I used the Foxnovo Digital Charger 4S


I have one of those, but I think it lies to me. When I choose 1/2A discharge, it does more like a quarter. And when I choose 1A discharge, it does more like 1/2A. Other than that, it works well. Does yours do the same thing?


You are right, I noticed the same thing. They are all like that (seen some similar review comments about it on amazon too)
In the 0.5A mode it charges at 0.5A, but only discharges at 0.25A.
In the 1.0A mode it charges at 1.0A/cell but only discharged at 0.5 A/cell.
I did the measuring using an ammeter wired in series with a cell I wired to the Foxnovo 4S DIgital charger

BTW, I noticed that even low resistance (aka high drain cells) like the VTC4 get a little warm one the foxnovo. THat' because there is no fan on the device to evacuate the heat from the discharge resistors... so the whole thing can get up to 50-52°C while discharging 4 cells simultanously at 0.5A discharge each... a simple computer fan dropped onto the Foxnovo can fixe this easily.

Tried my laptop battery again today, going rather slowly (average 26 km/h on the BBSDH).... From 57.2 V to 51.2V got me 34 km of distance... Battery got up to 60°C.
For anywone willing to take the risk of using laptop cell (Can't recommend this«, since LiCo is a high DCIR chemistry and is less safe than NMC) to power a 30A BBSHD, I'd say go at least 10P but ideally 15P.... The issue here is not capacity but the high current. Even by cherrypicking the best cells you got by the kind of tests I did, old laptop cells will suffer over 2C... 1C would be their comfort zone... But again, a 14S30P battery is just impractical at around 45 pounds of weight.
At highest PAS setting 5/5, but overriding it full throttle, I get some pretty massive voltage sag (can drop a few bars than go back up to normal)...
Last edited by Matador on Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
User avatar
Matador
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:00 pm
Location: Quebec City, QC, Canada

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby Matador » Wed Jun 21, 2017 8:59 pm

banjaxxed wrote:Progress is slow Image


Nice one banjaxxed ! Love those brass bolts !
Why not go even one step further use these pure and really thick bussbars made like these made in this thread (bought 25 feet for 20 bucks... Pure copper pice 1/4 inch OD.... Flattened with hammer, It's equivalent to between 5AWG and 6AWG copper wire IIRC... Can easily handle 100A continous.... and much more burst). Once flattend, I think I measured 8 or 9 mm wide by 1.7 mm thick.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=57810&p=1213147#p1213147

Like I made in this picture for instance :
IMG_03813.jpg


Matador
User avatar
Matador
10 kW
10 kW
 
Posts: 552
Joined: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:00 pm
Location: Quebec City, QC, Canada

DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Postby banjaxxed » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:59 pm

You read my mind! But the bus bar I have is 3mm and too thick, so yes waiting on some 6mm copper pipe, a nice idea I took from you Matador

I will probably only do this on the battery pack end terminals where heat can be a problem

I will have to resize the length of the bolts afterwards
banjaxxed
10 mW
10 mW
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:16 am

DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Soldering

Postby banjaxxed » Thu Jun 22, 2017 8:32 am

Question to those in the know is using nickel to interconnect the parallel pack ok?

The series connections are 2mm silver plated copper wire and the busbar will be as Matador said 6mm copper pipe flattened.

I want to use in a high power 10s7p eMTB
banjaxxed
10 mW
10 mW
 
Posts: 25
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:16 am

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby mlt34 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:11 pm

banjaxxed wrote:Question to those in the know is using nickel to interconnect the parallel pack ok?


Yes, for the parallels you can use a surprisingly small connector, even thin wire would work. There is very little current flowing through the parallel connections. All the cells drain basically equally, so the only current that flows sideways (between parallel cells) as opposed to forwards and backwards (charging and discharging via series connections) is a small amount of balancing current.

If your balance wires are only connected in one spot on the parallel group, as they almost always are, then the parallel connection only needs to be sufficiently strong to carry the balance current, usually not more than like 0.2 amps.
Are you planning your first electric bicycle conversion? I wrote a book that teaches beginners everything they need to know about building their own ebike.
Then I wrote the book (literally) on building custom lithium batteries.
I also write for EbikeSchool.com, a site that does mainly how-to style articles and other informational write-ups. Check out our youtube channel for great how-to battery building videos.
Lastly, I run www.Vruzend.com, which sells solderless 18650 battery kits, 18650 cells, li-ion chargers, BMSs and more!
User avatar
mlt34
100 kW
100 kW
 
Posts: 1443
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:23 pm
Location: Florida/Tel Aviv

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby eyebyesickle » Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:14 am

ok, I am kicking myself in the face right now. I mean RIGHTNOW =)

good stuff guys. I have BEEN working on some stuff like this too, just different.

you have solved a problem for me. THIS IS PERFECT for me... I have been modifying this and that blah blah blah.... I think I can cut the corners off these things and single stack em and connect em with a very short wire, and slip em inside the frames I make.

THIS WILL MAKE MY WORLD SO SO SO MUCH EASIER. Maybe I should look harder, but I'm pretty sure this will work. I ordered some from US even though they are out of stock... I am gonna go check the main site and see if I can get em SOONER!!!!

HEEEELP! =)

all these guys making these awesome battery solutions... I think I am gonna faint! :mrgreen: of happiness
RE-CYCLES - CUSTOM BUILDS/FRAMES/MOTORS/KITS/BATTERIES/ACC./ETC.
ES: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=81828
EBAY: http://www.ebay.com/usr/recyclesebiketech
TSDZ / BBS / BATTERIES: www.recycles-ebike.com
EMAIL: recyclesebikes@outlook.com
User avatar
eyebyesickle
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby agniusm » Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:26 am

Yeah. This year is bright. Vruzend, LMX, me working on battery solutions for diy. More choice, more ebikes on the road ;)
User avatar
agniusm
10 MW
10 MW
 
Posts: 2324
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 3:06 pm
Location: Lithuania, Zarasai

Re: DIY assembly kit for 18650 without spot welding/Solderin

Postby eyebyesickle » Fri Jun 23, 2017 2:37 am

agniusm wrote:Yeah. This year is bright. Vruzend, LMX, me working on battery solutions for diy. More choice, more ebikes on the road ;)


yes, and while I see yours are great for low profile, I can use these VRUZEND for vertical stack =)

my own type, is a serviceable complete battery pack, not really a DIY system... so no worries guys, I swear this isn't any funny bunny =) I just WANT THE GOODS =) =) =)

If you can't beat em - JOIN EM :mrgreen:
RE-CYCLES - CUSTOM BUILDS/FRAMES/MOTORS/KITS/BATTERIES/ACC./ETC.
ES: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=81828
EBAY: http://www.ebay.com/usr/recyclesebiketech
TSDZ / BBS / BATTERIES: www.recycles-ebike.com
EMAIL: recyclesebikes@outlook.com
User avatar
eyebyesickle
1 kW
1 kW
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:28 pm
Location: Michigan

PreviousNext

Return to Items for Sale - New

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests