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Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 25 2020 11:25pm
by john61ct
ASI BAC800 is I believe true FOC.

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 27 2020 3:29am
by Pilot Engineer
btslo wrote:
Jan 25 2020 2:33pm
Will there be a motor only 500-750W tier? How would the pedal and power delivery feel compared to a TSDZ2 if you had a chance to test? Looking for a lightweight torque sense middrive.
Yes, please find here all the available versions:
Lightest - Summary Chart jpg.jpg
Lightest - Summary Chart jpg.jpg (138.26 KiB) Viewed 1690 times
The pedal and power delivery compared to the TDSZ2 is more natural and immediate: less filters in between as we're directly sensing the tension on the chain.

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 27 2020 6:06am
by btslo
Thanks, but you probably misunterstood me, I've seen the table. I already have a battery, just want a lightweight 500-750W 48V torque sensing middrive (probably a top choice for many EU riders who want a similar feel to factory ebikes). Looking at the table, all the other tiers also get a battery (and more €), there is no motor only 750W tier (but that's understood, I can run the 1kw version at less amps probably but will be stuck with external controller)

I like the minimalistic SW102 display used and perfect chainline and better ground clearance (which are TSDZ2 disadvantages for me)

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 27 2020 7:56am
by Pilot Engineer
Tom wrote:
Jan 25 2020 10:11pm
Looks intriguing but who knows how refined the torque sensing will be. Seems like there is a wide variation among "torque sensing" drives.
Hi Tom, the torque sensor is very refined. Comparing to a bottom bracket torque sensor is a different world. I'm not saying that because we're selling it, but that's the immediate feeling we had comparing it to the BB torque sensor we developed on the Evolution system.

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 27 2020 10:51am
by nieles
Pilot Engineer wrote:
Jan 27 2020 7:56am
Tom wrote:
Jan 25 2020 10:11pm
Looks intriguing but who knows how refined the torque sensing will be. Seems like there is a wide variation among "torque sensing" drives.
Hi Tom, the torque sensor is very refined. Comparing to a bottom bracket torque sensor is a different world. I'm not saying that because we're selling it, but that's the immediate feeling we had comparing it to the BB torque sensor we developed on the Evolution system.
can you elaborate a bit on how the torque sensing is done?

can you also show some pictures of the different mounting methods (the indigogo page mentions there are 4 options)

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 27 2020 12:16pm
by 1N4001
nieles wrote:
Jan 27 2020 10:51am
can you elaborate a bit on how the torque sensing is done?
Look at the video at the 1:00 mark. The tension wheel arm deflects slightly when cranking, which can be measured.

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 28 2020 1:32am
by Uturn
Pilot Engineer wrote:
Jan 27 2020 7:56am
the torque sensor is very refined. Comparing to a bottom bracket torque sensor is a different world.
But why should a chain sensing troque sensor be better? It adds mechanical parts to the chain, the pedals will give when pressing, it will be disturbed by chain movements, it requires a quite complicated chain path with several pulleys. A boot bracket sensor does not have these disadvantages. Can you explain the advantages you see here?

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 28 2020 3:57am
by spiros
I think that there is some kind of thing that is difficult to explain.....like the taste of a dish....
I cannot wait for trying this motor!!!!!!
Possibly in all kinds of configuration

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 28 2020 4:02am
by qwerkus
Am I the only one here questioning the ability of a 1.7Kg unit to handle 1000W ? No matter how you turn it, electrical motors are always limited by their ability to shed heat, which depends on conduction and dissipation. The first one requires metal mass in contact with the heat source, the second one a large surface in contact with the cooling medium (surrounding air). As I don't spot any of those I wonder what the plan is here...

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 28 2020 8:04am
by stancecoke
spiros wrote:
Jan 28 2020 3:57am
I think that there is some kind of thing that is difficult to explain.....
Sorry, but this no argument. It's just a matter of sensitivity and response time. The solution with the chainwheel and the lever is just simple and cheap, as you don't have to measure the torque from a turning shaft. But is it reliable with rain, dirt an high pressure cleaning?

Do you install it under licence from santamonicaev?
Image

Yamaha had a simple lever in the old middrives also, but inside the housing:
Image

regards
stancecoke

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 28 2020 9:53am
by Pilot Engineer
nieles wrote:
Jan 27 2020 10:51am
Pilot Engineer wrote:
Jan 27 2020 7:56am
Tom wrote:
Jan 25 2020 10:11pm
Looks intriguing but who knows how refined the torque sensing will be. Seems like there is a wide variation among "torque sensing" drives.
Hi Tom, the torque sensor is very refined. Comparing to a bottom bracket torque sensor is a different world. I'm not saying that because we're selling it, but that's the immediate feeling we had comparing it to the BB torque sensor we developed on the Evolution system.
can you elaborate a bit on how the torque sensing is done?

can you also show some pictures of the different mounting methods (the indigogo page mentions there are 4 options)
Hi Tom, the torque sensing is done as explained by @1N4001 .

We're about to publish th pictures for the different installation positions.
Uturn wrote:
Jan 28 2020 1:32am
But why should a chain sensing troque sensor be better? It adds mechanical parts to the chain, the pedals will give when pressing, it will be disturbed by chain movements, it requires a quite complicated chain path with several pulleys. A boot bracket sensor does not have these disadvantages. Can you explain the advantages you see here?
The advantage here is that the measurement is very direct: from chain deflection to torque sensor signal. Plus it's amplified at the beginning because a ita takes a very small force to initially move the chain. Bottom bracket sensor adds weight, complexity and cost. Because of how the system is conceived, we'd had to use a chain tensioner anyway, so we're exploiting it to the fullest. If it's easy and works well, why not use it?
btslo wrote:
Jan 27 2020 6:06am
.... there is no motor only 750W tier (but that's understood, I can run the 1kw version at less amps probably but will be stuck with external controller)

I like the minimalistic SW102 display used and perfect chainline and better ground clearance (which are TSDZ2 disadvantages for me)
The price difference bewteen the 1000W and 750W will be minimal ( around 30 Euros) that's why we didn't think to offer that, to avoid too many products to choose from. As you said, those who are interested in the 750W version can easily take the 1000W and downgrade it either by the app or simply lowering the assistance.

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 28 2020 5:54pm
by MercyFlush
Pilot Engineer wrote:
Jan 28 2020 9:53am

The advantage here is that the measurement is very direct: from chain deflection to torque sensor signal. Plus it's amplified at the beginning because a ita takes a very small force to initially move the chain. Bottom bracket sensor adds weight, complexity and cost. Because of how the system is conceived, we'd had to use a chain tensioner anyway, so we're exploiting it to the fullest. If it's easy and works well, why not use it?
I think people are missing the fact that this is used by RockyMountain on their mid drives and it works very well. By far the best responsiveness of any I've tried. The biggest benefit is that by using this system you eliminate the requirement to have to install a crappy torque sensing bottom bracket.

I'm quite keen to get my hands on one of these. Particularly the 1000W without the battery.

One thing i'm curious on is if there is also sensing of the crank rotation. What happens if i'm in full assist mode and I land to flat on my downhill bike? Does the pedal kickback induced chain tension result in the pedals rotating forward on rebound? Perhaps a cadance sensor could help this be doing a low pass filter or such

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 28 2020 9:52pm
by 1boris

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 28 2020 11:42pm
by Tom
MercyFlush wrote:
Jan 28 2020 5:54pm
I think people are missing the fact that this is used by RockyMountain on their mid drives and it works very well. By far the best responsiveness of any I've tried.
Thanks, I'd never heard of those motors. Very high torque for a 250W euro-spec! The following review describes the torque sensing "as reactive as any I’ve experienced" although they also say "power delivery isn’t quite as smooth as with a Shimano motor".

https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bikes ... de-review/

Not that it will be representative of the motor being discussed, but touches on what I was initially wondering about, how refined will it be? There seems to be quite a bit of variation out there. I test rode a Brose and I was impressed with how smooth it was. I could tell it was a step up from my Bafang M600.

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 29 2020 12:44am
by MercyFlush
Tom wrote:
Jan 28 2020 11:42pm
MercyFlush wrote:
Jan 28 2020 5:54pm
I think people are missing the fact that this is used by RockyMountain on their mid drives and it works very well. By far the best responsiveness of any I've tried.
Thanks, I'd never heard of those motors. Very high torque for a 250W euro-spec! The following review describes the torque sensing "as reactive as any I’ve experienced" although they also say "power delivery isn’t quite as smooth as with a Shimano motor".
snip
Yeah! I thought it was a great compromise between power and weight. Admittedly I've only ridden older steps bikes and bafangs, but it absolutely blew them out of the water. I would think the largest issue at play in terms of 'smoothness' would be the control methodology. As I understand it, the Shimano actually changes from a proportional torque match (i.e. 25% of input torque), to blending in some average torque (As in motor torque applied even when the torque sensor isn't commanding it). Fundamentally the measure of chain tension is the most direct method of measurement for applied torque, so it's hard to screw up unless you have significant issues with your mounts flexing or perhaps issues with strain gauges.

Will be interesting to see if this lightest.bike will incorporate some sort of cadence sensor (or motor feedback) to come up with some intuitive input registration.

I think ultimately, if lightest.bike can take feedback from their customers and push out refined firmware then they should do quite well. It's priced as a better alternative to the TSDZ2, and if it can hold up to offroad abuse then it'll be a no brainer for a lot of people

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 29 2020 6:21am
by Uturn
What size of chainwheel are possible? Could a 53 or a 56 tooth chainwheel be used?

New Torque sensor Mid drive by Bikee bike

Posted: Jan 30 2020 4:36am
by Bombus
Got notice of a new up to 1000 watt small mid drive by bikee bike called the lightest.
Also is a torque/PAS motor which is a game changer from the Bafangs and has more power than the TSDZ2

https://www.lightest.bike?mwr=cc55f8c6

There meant to be 4 types of mounting methods which could suit difficult situations
It will be interesting to see what happens

Re: New Torque sensor Mid drive by Bikee bike

Posted: Jan 30 2020 5:44am
by btslo

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Jan 30 2020 7:23am
by petrun
There will be available different bottom bracket sizes , 100 or 120mm?

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Mar 12 2020 11:43am
by Pilot Engineer
Hi Guys,

the campaign will start next Monday, March the 16th!
Image

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Mar 23 2020 3:30am
by Cheburator
Nice project, I have ordered 1000W kit.
Can it be later upgraded with Superhero Pack?
Will you offer other throttle versions like half-twist and thumb type?

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Mar 25 2020 3:38pm
by Timelord
petrun wrote:
Jan 30 2020 7:23am
There will be available different bottom bracket sizes , 100 or 120mm?
Apparently, you reuse your existing BB, as long as it's square taper or ISIS, so any length you want if it's available with those interfaces.

The torque sensing setup reminds me of the old Charger ebike I had back in the '90s, which worked well enough.

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Mar 25 2020 4:48pm
by flat tire
Pilot Engineer wrote:
Jan 27 2020 7:56am
Hi Tom, the torque sensor is very refined. Comparing to a bottom bracket torque sensor is a different world.
Uh oh we've got a charlatan. There's nothing inherently wrong with bb torque sensors many of them work freaking great.

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Mar 25 2020 8:36pm
by Timelord
By the way, what is this topic doing in the Items for Sale forum? It should be in E-bike Non-hub Motor Drives.

Re: 1.7kg 1000w mid drive

Posted: Mar 28 2020 12:39pm
by fechter
Timelord wrote:
Mar 25 2020 8:36pm
By the way, what is this topic doing in the Items for Sale forum? It should be in E-bike Non-hub Motor Drives.
Topic moved.