Kepler Friction Drive System (sale thread)

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Kepler   1 GW

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Kepler Friction Drive System (sale thread)

Post by Kepler » Aug 05 2010 7:47pm

OK, time for some solid update information.

Firstly we are on track to have drives built before then of this month. The web site will go live on the 19th of this month and will have shopping cart facilities for easy purchase through paypal.

First run numbers are a quite conservative at 20 units with 5 units already fully reserved.

This first run of drives will be sold as mechanics only. At this stage it makes little sense for me to try and buy motors, ESCs, and batteries when everyone here can buy at same price as me anyway. It just ends up tying up a lot of cash for me and doubling up shipping costs. I will of course be providing information on the type of motors, ESC's and batteries best suited to the drive.

A custom designed interface for the drive is under development and is shaping up to be a very exciting addition. Basic features will be both Hall and 5K throttle input compatible, current sensing limiting, minimum speed start-up, and intelligent throttle ramping.
There will also be an integrated Speedo and battery condition LED. Battery condition will sense cell count and adjust accordingly. LED will start solid and then flash more quickly as the low voltage threshold is reached. The interface will also incorporate a high current buzzer so people will know when the drive is at its max duty.

I will post a fully feature list and pricing on the interface in the next few days but it will include throttle, wheel speed sensor, Speedo, battery indication LED, and high current buzzer.

The interface will be a few weeks behind the drive but well worth waiting for. The interface makes the drive extremely user friendly and allows anyone to ride the bike rather then only enthusiasts like us who understand how to ride around the idiosyncrasies of an RC based drive system using a servo tester type interface.

So now the important stuff. Pricing.

The base kit will be offered at $295 AUD. That’s around the $250 USD mark at the current exchange rate.
This price is a parts only non anodized price and requires you to build the drive and add your own motor, esc, etc. Instructions will be included offcourse.

For anodizing (black only), add $35.00 AUD to the base price.
For an assembled unit, add $20.00 AUD to the base price.

Postage is not included but as the drive is quite small and light, should be relatively low depending on the service chosen.

The latest drive includes a quick release clamp rather then 4 bolt clamping arrangement originally used. There are no acrylic parts in the drive with high quality laser cut and CNC machined components used through out.

The drive has quite a bit of adjustment and fits most bikes but doesn’t fit every bike. If you send me a picture of your bike I can usually confirm quite quickly if it will be suitable. However, I will be putting together some measurement criteria on the website for easy confirmation.

Other items to consider. Seat post diameter. There are about 6 different sizes ranging from 34mm to 25.4mm. The drive is supplied with an aluminium billet spacer but you need to specify your seat post diameter. If you have a few different seat posts you would like to fit the drive to, I can supply extra spacers at a cost of $5.00 per spacer.

The drive accepts the two main motor bolt patterns and is adjustable for different length motors. A number of adjusting spacers are included in the kit but some motors may require some fine tuning using some spacer washers. The drive fits both 48mm and 63mm motors.

The drive accepts ESC's, from 16mm thick to 25mm thick and no more then 40mm wide. It is designed around ESC's with top mounted heat sinks as the top clamping plate is designed to become and extended high capacity heat sink for the ESC. ESC's with side mounted heat sinks will work also but need to be less then 40mm wide and shimmed so that the heat sinks come in contact with the side plates.


So that’s where we stand at the moment. If you want to provide a firm commitment to a drive before the official release date, please contact me via PM and we can make arrangements from there.

Thanks for your patience everyone. This has been a massive undertaking for me and I have made every effort to provide a quality product to you. I hope you enjoy the drive as much as I do.

Cheers Everyone

John
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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by neoplasticity » Aug 06 2010 3:30am

Kepler

can you tell us the motor, ESC and battery most suited to this so I can see what else I need to buy and what the total cost to me will be so i can plan accordingly?

thanks

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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by Kepler » Aug 06 2010 4:40am

There are plenty of motors available that suit the drive. If you go for 48mm diam motor, you can use motors from 240kv to 320kv. The Hyperion and Scorpion range are best here. You should go for motors rated at 2000W and up. If you are looking for a cheaper alternative, you can go for one of the many Hobby City motors. 63-54, 63-64, 63-74. All of these fit but it needs to as low kV as possible. 170kv is ideal but hard to get. 200kv works well also. You can go as high as 240kv but that is a fast setup and is better suited to 5S. I currently use a Turnigy 63-74 200kv which is the maximum size motor I have designed for. This works very well and being rated at 3000w, hardly gets warm even when used constantly.

In relation to ESC's, I think the Castle Creations Ice 100A is the best choice but its not cheap. If you want an economy ESC, the Turnigy Kforce 100A works very well also. I have a KForce 85A on order and think this may be OK also in a light to medium duty application.

However, as long as the ESC is less then 40mm wide and 25mm high, it will fit in the drive. Just be aware that the really cheap ESC's have very poor softstart and typically poor sync ability. You can get around this by pedaling a little more before engaging the drive but I recommend that you look at the better ESC's as the first choice.

Hope that helps. :)
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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by liveforphysics » Aug 06 2010 5:04am

I just read through this thread for the first time.

Great job finding a clever passive solution to fix many of the issues common to a roller drive. :) I love how it rolls free when coasting, I love how the pressure against the tire is torque dependent, and I love the simplicity and light weight design. For my gritty/wet/muddy seattle climate, I think I will stick with something chain driven, but for most places, I think this is a pretty damn slick alternative to a hubmotor. :)

Nice work!
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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by adrian_sm » Aug 06 2010 6:21am

Just did a quick google on parts to get a feel for total cost, thought others might find it useful.

Drive Kit:
AU$299 - Kepler Tailwind eBoost
AU$ 35 - black anoziding


ESC:
AU$125 - Castle Creations Ice 100A
US$ 64 - TURNIGY K-Force 100A Brushless ESC

Motor:
US$ 84 - Hyperion Z4045
US$ 84 - Hyperion Z4045
AU$199 - Scorpion 4035-330
US$ 60 - HXT 63-74 200kv Brushless Outrunner
US$ 45 - Turnigy 63-64-B 230Kv Outrunner
US$ 59 - TGY AerodriveXp 160 SK Series 63-64 230Kv / 3150W
US$ 60 - TGY AerodriveXp SK Series 63-74 170Kv / 3250W

Batteries:
US$55 - Turnigy 5000mAh 6S 20C Lipo Pac

Tallying it up (ignoring shipping costs) assuming you select the bold items above.
AU$334(US$300) + US$64 + US$84 + 2xUS$55 = US$538 + various shipping costs + odds and ends like throttle, wire, connectors etc

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

- Adrian
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by zap » Aug 06 2010 9:13am

Thank you for that Adrian!!!
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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by MrBoots » Aug 06 2010 3:03pm

I've been keeping a close eye on this. Your friction drive seems like a very versatile and stealth set-up. I'd love to equip my time-trial bike with something like this. Keep up the great work!
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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by Kepler » Aug 06 2010 4:45pm

liveforphysics wrote:I just read through this thread for the first time.

Great job finding a clever passive solution to fix many of the issues common to a roller drive. :) I love how it rolls free when coasting, I love how the pressure against the tire is torque dependent, and I love the simplicity and light weight design. For my gritty/wet/muddy seattle climate, I think I will stick with something chain driven, but for most places, I think this is a pretty damn slick alternative to a hubmotor. :)

Nice work!
Thanks Luke. Appriciate you taking the time to read through the thread.
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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by Kepler » Aug 06 2010 5:17pm

adrian_sm wrote:Just did a quick google on parts to get a feel for total cost, thought others might find it useful.

Drive Kit:
AU$299 - Kepler Tailwind eBoost
AU$ 35 - black anoziding


ESC:
AU$125 - Castle Creations Ice 100A
US$ 64 - TURNIGY K-Force 100A Brushless ESC

Motor:
US$ 84 - Hyperion Z4045
US$ 84 - Hyperion Z4045
AU$199 - Scorpion 4035-330
US$ 60 - HXT 63-74 200kv Brushless Outrunner
US$ 45 - Turnigy 63-64-B 230Kv Outrunner
US$ 59 - TGY AerodriveXp 160 SK Series 63-64 230Kv / 3150W
US$ 60 - TGY AerodriveXp SK Series 63-74 170Kv / 3250W

Batteries:
US$55 - Turnigy 5000mAh 6S 20C Lipo Pac

Tallying it up (ignoring shipping costs) assuming you select the bold items above.
AU$334(US$300) + US$64 + US$84 + 2xUS$55 = US$538 + various shipping costs + odds and ends like throttle, wire, connectors etc

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

- Adrian
Thanks for that Adrian. :D
Plenty of motor choices there. Those Hyperions i think are at a runout price. I paid double that 18 months ago. The 320 kv 48mm motors are very quick on 6S. 5S is plenty for this kv rating. These packs are great http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=9174 and only $42 USD

I think those TGY AerodriveXp SK Series 63-74 170Kv are a great fit for the drive too. 5S or 6S will work well. Just depends on how fast you want to go.

As with any of these RC motors, its always a good idea to add a bit of extra glue to the magnets. Funny, I needed to glue my Hyperion motor magnets but the cheap 63-74 Turnigy has been fine without glueing. Go figure.
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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by spinningmagnets » Aug 06 2010 8:36pm

Here's a friction-drive RPM/MPH table from the resources stickie (thanks jdcburg). When I get some time, I will compile one in "mm" and KPH, first part will specifically be for the 48mm and 63mm diameter motors.

(48mm = 1.89".......63mm = 2.48")

Image

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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by EVTodd » Aug 06 2010 8:59pm

Now I want a 12 inch drive wheel. With my batteries and motor I could go almost 330 mph! :lol:

I have a simple spreadsheet made for calculating roller sizes too. If anyone needs it pm me.
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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by adrian_sm » Aug 06 2010 10:15pm

Or another way to look at the speeds is what speed you get for various motor types, and battery combos.
I found this more useful in trying to decide which motor/battery combo is worthwhile.

Here is the no-load speeds assuming 3.7V per cell.
Kepler - speeds.jpg
Kepler - speeds.jpg (23.71 KiB) Viewed 15261 times
- Adrian
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by Kepler » Aug 07 2010 2:56am

Real world speeds with this drive are about 15% lower then the above charts. Very handy info though.

I get around 40kph 320kv 48mm motor 5S and close to 50kph on 6S
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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by adrian_sm » Aug 07 2010 2:58am

Oops. Here is the table I meant to upload. It has motor names, and sorted on speed.
Kepler - speeds v2.jpg
Kepler - speeds v2.jpg (44.87 KiB) Viewed 15296 times
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by LI-ghtcycle » Aug 07 2010 8:10am

Very useful chart you have there, Thanks!

I'm anxiously awaiting the 19th! I really am glad to hear about the interface that includes so much information!

Glad I hadn't started to assemble a watt meter and such yet, looks like your interface should have all the basics covered, that should make this one of the most complete kits around. :D
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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by spinningmagnets » Aug 07 2010 11:05am

There will always be some customers that are happy with the US federal standard of 20-mph (32-kph). Although, if they are riding safely, they are unlikely to ever get stopped by the authorities regardless of actual power.

If actual road speed (flat ground, light winds, average rider weight) is 15% below unloaded RPMs, my most desirable target product would provide an unloaded 23-mph (37-kph), and if it was advertised at the lower voltage (5s), the customer would be able to easily upgrade to a higher voltage.

I want to avoid supplying batteries and chargers (they are easily acquired by the customer, directly from retailers). I believe they are the part that will have the most customer complaints, even though the problems are a result of operator error. This leads to my concerns about protecting the ESC's I may stock.

There will be customers that purchase a battery with odd connectors (or connectors that are incorrectly polarised from the factory). I can visualise a customer trying to attach their own connectors to a battery cable set.

Is there a chance that someone would be kind enough to post a schematic of a pigtail with polarization-protection, in case a customer tries to plug the battery into the controller backwards? Perhaps one with a red and green LED? thats something I could make myself with a proper schematic.

edit: Two methods displayed here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 60#p299062
Last edited by spinningmagnets on Aug 24 2010 7:22pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by neptronix » Aug 07 2010 4:02pm

Count me in as someone who is totally stoked about this. I've been waiting for a system like this for a very long time and have been hesitant to invest in hub motors. I was initially thinking about hacking together a chain driven system with a clutch using go kart parts, but this is just so much more elegant. I like the lightweight factor and portability even more so than my idea..

If it can stand up to Portland's rainy streets, you've got yourself both a buyer and an evangelist.
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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by mwkeefer » Aug 07 2010 4:36pm

Spin,

I think the problem with normal consumers and LiPo only really exists when dealing with packs larger (in series) than common chargers can handle.

Providing that some LVC (cell level) is used to provide a cutout system - I can't forsee people having any other issues when working with 5-8S packs and chargers designed for them.

Eventually someone will brainchild on selling housings with mounts and space to accept perhaps 4x6S packs with plugs in the housing to handle parallel and all the other needed connections.. No batteries but with physical housing, HVC/LVC (or some variation of them) and appropriate plug and play connectors.

Kepler,

A question - what motor would you suggest to use with your drive system to acheive the absolute best high end speeds ? You know me - I'm usually a 35-40mph rider and for one I could care aless about the specifics of the law for my own builds - I only do compliance when building for customers (unless requested to do an "OFFROAD" build - ha yea off road)... in either case I have many outrunners here now but would like to pickup what you believe would be the best performing mate for your drive system.

To clarify - I will be attempting to make the system adaptable for 2 bikes at once, the complicated part 1 is 26" and one is 20" - Assuming a motor can handle a wide enough range of voltage input - I suppose 8S on a 20 and 6/5S on a 26 would about match the speeds...

Really can't wait to see these brother - been chomping at the bit for something new and I think I have quite a few customers here in my locale who will find your drive prefferable to hubs and other methods - there are quite a few spandex warriers here with the 3-4k practice bikes (you should see the race bikes) and a system like yours won't hinder changing the tires, add much weight, etc... but it could with a fairly reasonable weight provide power for the return portion of their training runs. I'm only hoping you can produce them fast enough after the first batch goes out!

TBPH: I would prefer a multi stage reduction personally but for avg Joe - I think the utter simplicity and lack of real technical challenges to installation will bring you a very nice market segment :)

-Mike
Regards,
Mike

{My Rides]
2010 Dahon Jack - GNG v1 - LYEN 6FET - 20/40A - 18S2P10AH - Nom:66.6v,1332w
2004 Hard Rock Pro Disc - Recumpence ms eDrive v4 - Astro 3220 4T - 12S2P16AH - HV110 - Left Side Drive - Gearing: 38mph
Nominal Peak Power @ 60 seconds: 5328 watts - Maximum Power: 49.8v, 120A, 5872w
2010 Downtube 8FH - Stock GNG v1 Stock Controller - EB809XC - 12-16S
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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by adrian_sm » Aug 07 2010 4:54pm

mwkeefer wrote: Kepler,

A question - what motor would you suggest to use with your drive system to acheive the absolute best high end speeds ? You know me - I'm usually a 35-40mph rider....

To clarify - I will be attempting to make the system adaptable for 2 bikes at once, the complicated part 1 is 26" and one is 20" - Assuming a motor can handle a wide enough range of voltage input - I suppose 8S on a 20 and 6/5S on a 26 would about match the speeds...

-Mike
Mike,

A friction drive like this doesn't care what wheel size you are running, as it directly drives the tire surfaces, which is the road speed you will get. So no differences in speed for 20" or 26".

As for absolute best high end speed, I'll let someone else answer that, but it will involve the motor that can sustain the highest power. Which is difficult because these types of motors are usually applied to aircraft which involves some signficant force air cool being behind a propeller, which it won't get on a bike.

- Adrian

P.S.

10 days to go.
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by mwkeefer » Aug 07 2010 5:02pm

Adrian,

So am I wrong in assuming that if running (hypothetical for simplicity) a 1" OD outrunner on 24v with a kV of 100 which would result in approx 2400 RPM (less efficiency) and since the reduction level changes with tire size the end road speed (wheel RPM) will be constant since the larger diameter wheel will provide a larger reduction but require less RPM for the same speed as a smaller wheel?

Somehow this seems contrary to intuition - like I'm missing somthing?

-Mike
Regards,
Mike

{My Rides]
2010 Dahon Jack - GNG v1 - LYEN 6FET - 20/40A - 18S2P10AH - Nom:66.6v,1332w
2004 Hard Rock Pro Disc - Recumpence ms eDrive v4 - Astro 3220 4T - 12S2P16AH - HV110 - Left Side Drive - Gearing: 38mph
Nominal Peak Power @ 60 seconds: 5328 watts - Maximum Power: 49.8v, 120A, 5872w
2010 Downtube 8FH - Stock GNG v1 Stock Controller - EB809XC - 12-16S
2012 Downtube Nova 7spd - Stock GNG v2 - 12S2P10AH - EB809 - 12S-16S - 20A/30A,Nom VCC: 44.4, 888w

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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by adrian_sm » Aug 07 2010 5:10pm

mwkeefer wrote:Adrian,

So am I wrong in assuming that if running (hypothetical for simplicity) a 1" OD outrunner on 24v with a kV of 100 which would result in approx 2400 RPM (less efficiency) and since the reduction level changes with tire size the end road speed (wheel RPM) will be constant since the larger diameter wheel will provide a larger reduction but require less RPM for the same speed as a smaller wheel?

Somehow this seems contrary to intuition - like I'm missing somthing?

-Mike
It is a bit confusing isn't it. But you don't get any reduction with tire size.

It all comes down to the 24V times 100kv times the circumeference of the motor.
This sets the velocity at the surface of the motor can, which directly sets the velocity on the surface of the tire, which directly sets the road speed.

- Adrian
Build #1 ~28kg ~ 700w Avanti Hardtail Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway. ~5500 kms to date. (retired)
Build #2 ~30kg ~2000w Giant AC Dually Crystalyte 408, 48V10Ah Headway + 6s10Ah LiPo = 70V. ~15000 kms to date [SOLD]
Build #3 ~13kg ~2000w Commuter Booster <1kg Friction Drive in Beta testing (www.commuterbooster.com)
Build #??? ~21kg ~1500w Adrian's Bafang BPM Hardtail MTB Bafang BPM code12, 15s LiPo, ~40kph, ~30kms

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Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by LI-ghtcycle » Aug 08 2010 12:59am

I'm really just blown away at all that comes with this kit, I really believe it is about to be simultaneously the most complete and affordable LiPo powered kit available.

I have a couple of folks that are playing "wait and see" wanting to see how my kit works out, but some others that will probably try for the first batch, I just told my "boss" (I work kinda like an independent contractor building E-Bikes at my LBS) that the first batch is going fast and that he needs to put some money down if he wants in, I'm pretty sure he will, but he has warm up to these things, it's now been a year that he has seen my electric and finally was willing to put together and sell a kit he had from years ago. He's just really leery of anything to do with electricity, so I'm his main support there.

Keep up the good work! :D
Thank you Justin_Le for your selfless act of kindness! We all are in your debt.
Back on track E-Bronco! Now with Cro Motor Mid-Drive Goodness!
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=44997

Vision R40 w/3000w MXUS as mid-drive, NuVinci N171B rear wheel as transmission, Silent yet powerful, running 72v 11.6 ah (20s 18650 Li-Ion) to climb hills, tow trailer with zero pedaling when needed!

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 28&t=75247[/size]

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etard   1 MW

1 MW
Posts: 1934
Joined: Aug 03 2008 3:28pm
Location: Redlands, CA

Re: Kepler Friction Drive System (sale thread)

Post by etard » Aug 08 2010 9:49am

WOW Adrian, thanks for that, I was under the same impression as Mike.
, and possibly something that I would

Kepler,
Is it correct that the first batch will NOT have the interface? IMO, that takes the bargain right out of the equation, while still being somewhat reasonable, but now we are talking $500-600 without the interface for a complete kit. How much extra will the interface be? That was one of the selling points, and possibly something that I would buy to use on other applications.
Four wheels moves the body, Two wheels moves the soul
Thanks to Justin @ http://www.ebike.ca He brings the soul to ES

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EVTodd   10 kW

10 kW
Posts: 956
Joined: Oct 17 2007 7:15pm
Location: Illinois

Re: An Advanced Friction Drive System

Post by EVTodd » Aug 08 2010 12:54pm

LI-ghtcycle wrote:I'm really just blown away at all that comes with this kit, I really believe it is about to be simultaneously the most complete and affordable LiPo powered kit available.

I have a couple of folks that are playing "wait and see" wanting to see how my kit works out, but some others that will probably try for the first batch, I just told my "boss" (I work kinda like an independent contractor building E-Bikes at my LBS) that the first batch is going fast and that he needs to put some money down if he wants in, I'm pretty sure he will, but he has warm up to these things, it's now been a year that he has seen my electric and finally was willing to put together and sell a kit he had from years ago. He's just really leery of anything to do with electricity, so I'm his main support there.

Keep up the good work! :D
Ok, now I´m confused. You don´t get everything for $250 do you?

I believe Kepler said it was for the drive only meaning no motor, esc, batteries, etc.... If I´m wrong then wow, that is cheap! :D
New Tidalforce friction drive build: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 28&t=28029

My Friction Drive Outrunner Setup: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... &start=330

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tritonwow   100 W

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Joined: Jun 07 2009 2:40am

Re: Kepler Friction Drive System (sale thread)

Post by tritonwow » Aug 08 2010 1:58pm

Suscribed:
I was wondering where all these posts dissapeared to
TidalForce S-750 with Bafang SWXH rear hub
Diamondback Insight 700c "Roadrunner" in the making
1967 eNorton in the making
Potentially 2001 Triumph eDaytona in the making
'95 Triumph Daytona 1200 ICE

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