Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE 2013

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Doctorbass   100 GW

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by Doctorbass » Feb 02 2015 10:26pm

mrbill wrote:
Doctorbass wrote:f you drill just two holes on teh lower part of your actual dropout this will not affect the strengh of your frame and dropout and will fit to the lower holes of the T-A when facing in teh same direction as shown on your pictures. Two M8 holes per side will be perfect.
I mounted the torque arms and used a Sharpie to indicate where the 5/16" bolts might go on each of the dropouts. I marked holes only where they where fully contained on the dropout (i.e. weren't hanging over an existing hole or off the dropout's edge). I suspect that I want to use two bolts on opposite sides of the axle for the strongest installation.

In the spirit of "measure twice (or N times); cut once", I thought I'd post these photos to get another opinion before I start drilling holes.

Photo 1 shows the Gold Rush drive side aluminum dropout. Counting from the position closest to the derailleur hanger, would the best hole locations be at the 3rd and 5th position?
GR_ds.jpg
Photo 2 shows the Gold Rush non-drive side aluminum dropout. Counting from the position at the left, would the best hole locations be at the 1st and 3rd positions?
GR_nds.jpg
Photo 3 shows the Pursuit drive side titanium dropout. Counting from the position closest to the derailleur hanger, would the best hole locations be at the 1st and 3rd position? I'm a little worried that position #1 is close to the edge of the void in the dropout.
P_ds.jpg
Photo 4 shows the Pursuit non-drive side titanium dropout. Counting from the position at the left-most, would the best hole locations be at the 1st and 3rd positions?
P_nds.jpg
Thanks.
All your suggestions are right. I would not worri about the positio 1 for the photo 3 because it is more about the leg that hold the derailleur and once the bolt will be in it plus the epoxy it will be stronger than before.

I would recommand using epoxy and bolt + glue them ( in fact install the epoxy and then quickly install the bolt and tighten them before the epoxy is cured)

The epoxy will do two things: make the dropout stronger and also avoid galvanic corrosion with steel and aluminum. the epoxy will better isolate them from that corrosion.


Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
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mrbill   10 kW

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by mrbill » Feb 02 2015 10:40pm

Doctorbass wrote:I would recommend using epoxy and bolt + glue them ( in fact install the epoxy and then quickly install the bolt and tighten them before the epoxy is cured)

The epoxy will do two things: make the dropout stronger and also avoid galvanic corrosion with steel and aluminum. the epoxy will better isolate them from that corrosion.
Hmm. I was planning to make these torque arms removable and not to use epoxy, just the bolts. That way I can go back to using normal rear wheels (with mid-drive). I always use anti-seize or thread locker (depending on situation) on my fasteners, so I don't run into galvanic corrosion problems.

Turns out my derailleurs (Shimano XT and XTR) cannot cover a full 9speed cluster if I thicken my dropouts to 5/8" (1/4" original plus 3/8" torque arms), unless I modify the derailleur. Also, a normal quick release skewer (used with non-hub motor wheels) will not clamp the required length if I use a torque arm on each side, which I plan to do when using a hub motor.

What is your assessment if I use two bolts without epoxy?
Bill Bushnell
http://mrbill.homeip.net/
Bike build thread can be seen here.

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by Doctorbass » Feb 02 2015 10:46pm

mrbill wrote:
Doctorbass wrote:I would recommend using epoxy and bolt + glue them ( in fact install the epoxy and then quickly install the bolt and tighten them before the epoxy is cured)

The epoxy will do two things: make the dropout stronger and also avoid galvanic corrosion with steel and aluminum. the epoxy will better isolate them from that corrosion.
Hmm. I was planning to make these torque arms removable and not to use epoxy, just the bolts. That way I can go back to using normal rear wheels (with mid-drive). I always use anti-seize or thread locker (depending on situation) on my fasteners, so I don't run into galvanic corrosion problems.

Turns out my derailleurs (Shimano XT and XTR) cannot cover a full 9speed cluster if I thicken my dropouts to 5/8" (1/4" original plus 3/8" torque arms), unless I modify the derailleur. Also, a normal quick release skewer (used with non-hub motor wheels) will not clamp the required length if I use a torque arm on each side, which I plan to do when using a hub motor.

What is your assessment if I use two bolts without epoxy?
OK i see. Well you could use two bolt, it'S OK but i would suggest to use the two holes that are as far as possible from the dropout edges at both end of the 14mm radius where the axel seat... This mean using the holes taht are like 1 and 5 in some cases but not the 2-3 or 3-4 depending on the side and bike. the end of the 14mm radius is the area where there is a change in slope and where there is more stress at high torque and you want to keep all the meat there.

Doc

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 03 2015 9:14pm

14 985 pounds!! on the axel!


Some interesting fact for you guys:

Have you ever imaginated or calculated what is the force applied on the edge of the axel flat when using insane torque setup?


Here is some calculations that will make you see torque arm differently ! or convicen you to get some :lol:

Simulation:

Monster torque setup:
Motor: 5403
Controller: Adaptto MAX-E
Wheel: 24 inch
Controller battery current: 138A
Controller phase current 400A
Battery voltage 22s lipo

Torque at 0kmh and WOT: 295Nm !!
trust at the wheel : 217 pounds trust

From the ebike simulator witch have a solid reputation for accuracy!

Now let's calculate what is the force applied to the axel and torque arm!!

We know that at 1 ft from the center of the axel the wheel is 217lb torque

Now how much torque is at the edge of the axel ( a standard M14 axel with flat of 10mm thick)
The edge of the flat is located at about 6mm from the center

how many 6mm is in the 1ft long?
1ft is 305mm
305mm/6mm= 50.8 !!!! this mean that the force at the axel is 50.8 times stronger than at the wheel !!

The force on the axel edge need to be multiplicated by a factor of 50.8 witch represent:

295 lb x 50.8 = 14 986 pounds !!! :lol: :shock:

But we all know that we must use two torque arm to not break the axel.. but that's still 7493 pounds of trust !! or about 4 tons !! RIGHT ON THE EDGE !

That's why the material used for the Torque arm MUST BE HARD too!!! :wink:

This is a video from Arthur was showing that "only" about 250Nm is necessary to twist and break an M16 axel!!.. so imagine that a M14 require less !!

TWO TORQUES ARMS ARE NECESSARY ON A HIGH TORQUE SETUP !!



Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by gridlok » Mar 19 2015 8:29am

This is a quick review of my experience with these TA, any input or corrections are always welcome.

Dr Bass Torque Arms – The Best Way Keep Your Dropouts From Breaking Without Using Ghetto Hoseclamps

If you mount a hub motor that is over 500 watts on any bike frame you’re going to want to use a Torque arm to prevent your dropouts from opening up under load and in some cases catastrophically failing. There are a couple good options from Grin Tech that involve hoseclamps (the v3 and 4v torque arms) but no Torque Arm I’ve seen yet is quite as sexy as Dr Bass’s Torque Arms from Endless-Sphere.

Durable, Sexy and Easy to Install $18 each + $12 shipping and $10 for epoxy from Dr Bass on ES

The advantages of Dr Bass’s torque arms are that they are much more stealthy than other brands that rely on hose-clamps. The disadvantage is that once you epoxy it on, it isn’t ever going to come off again. If you want to mount your old non-motorized wheelset again with a QR you’ll have to find one with a slightly longer axle QR than what you were using before you put on the TA.

I would advise you grind off the paint on the side of the dropout that you want to mount the TA on. I did a test fit with the hub motor and rim then wrapped the axle on the side of the hub motor on the TA side with a ziplock baggy. You can put the nut over the end of the axle with the bag on it and tighten it down to about 1/5 the torque you would usually mount the wheel with. Tighten the opposite side nut as well and give it 24 hours before you take the motor off again. Keep the temps in the 70+ degree range or the epoxy won’t set right. Mix the epoxy till you get bored doing it, then mix it for a few more minutes. Wear nitrile gloves when using the epoxy to keep it off your skin.

Dr Bass advises using grease instead of a baggy, but that ends up being pretty messy and the grease can accidentally mix with the epoxy and keep it from hardening right. A ziplock plastic baggy seems to control the chaos and still has pretty good results.

The rear TA has a handy M10 derailleur hanger that will NEVER break off. (Even if you want it to)

If there is room on the inside of the dropouts, you can mount it there to hide it a little better, but you might have to really fudge to get the disk brake to line up. If I have to move the disk brake I split the difference and put 1/2 the washers on the rotor and the other half on the brake mounting bracket. You’ll need to use longer bolts for both which I usually get from Mcmaster Carr. Longer disk mounting bolts (16mm instead of the standard 10mm) are here and longer 25mm disk brake mounting bolts are here. You have to get creative when mounting non-standard hub sizes on fatbike non-standard width dropouts.

I’ve fit 145mm motors on 170mm dropouts by using a lot of washers and pushing the chainstays together a bit. Aluminum is harder to do this with than steel is as aluminum tends to break rather than gracefully bend when under a lot of tension. You can usually get a few mm of play with aluminum but don’t push your luck.

For through-hole axles you are out of luck mounting a hub motor unless you want to cut openings at the bottom of the through hole to slide the motor in and then use Dr Bass Torque arms glued on either side. You should be able to mount a 135mm Mac on a 150mm Bluto front fork with the TA glued to the inside of the fork, but I have yet to try it. Someone else destroy their $500 fork and send me pictures and I’ll give you your 15 minutes of fame.

If you do not have the special 3M squeeze dispenser you will have to push each plunger down about the same amount to get equal parts epoxy. 4500psi shear strength per square inch.

If your front fork is steel you probably don’t need a TA until you hit over 250 watts. For anything over 500 watts on Front or Rear or any front mounted hub motor on a non-steel fork you should really use a TA. If you don’t know if your fork is steel use a magnet, if it sticks then it is steel or ChMo. That being said on beefy rear dropouts I’ve run up to 1000 watt Direct Drive motors on aluminum frames without TA (for testing purposes only) but I am insane and care very little about my life, so don’t do what I do. Do what I say.

I say if you must have a Torque Arm then I think these are the ones to use.

For pictures of these babies on scales and a bunch of links that actually work you can go to

https://electricfatbike.wordpress.com/2 ... oseclamps/

Ride On.
Fatbikes+Electric=Awesome : http://www.electric-fatbike.com

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by ecologymagnet » Mar 28 2015 5:37pm

I've placed this glue ; but it is "easy" to take off the torque arm

http://www.ebay.es/itm/3M-Scotch-Weld-E ... 1351915752?

Will it be fake?

I Sand the paint and I create notches before gluing.

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 28 2015 10:43pm

ecologymagnet wrote:I've placed this glue ; but it is "easy" to take off the torque arm

http://www.ebay.es/itm/3M-Scotch-Weld-E ... 1351915752?

Will it be fake?

I Sand the paint and I create notches before gluing.

I just can't see the link you posted.. ebay is blocking me fro seeing it ( it is in spanish right?)

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by ecologymagnet » Mar 29 2015 10:39am

Doctorbass wrote:
ecologymagnet wrote:I've placed this glue ; but it is "easy" to take off the torque arm

http://www.ebay.es/itm/3M-Scotch-Weld-E ... 1351915752?

Will it be fake?

I Sand the paint and I create notches before gluing.

I just can't see the link you posted.. ebay is blocking me fro seeing it ( it is in spanish right?)

Doc
Yes, It is in Spanish.

Url from .com:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3M-Scotch-Weld- ... 1351915752

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 29 2015 11:22am

ecologymagnet wrote:
Doctorbass wrote:
ecologymagnet wrote:I've placed this glue ; but it is "easy" to take off the torque arm

http://www.ebay.es/itm/3M-Scotch-Weld-E ... 1351915752?

Will it be fake?

I Sand the paint and I create notches before gluing.

I just can't see the link you posted.. ebay is blocking me fro seeing it ( it is in spanish right?)

Doc


Url from .com:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/3M-Scotch-Weld- ... 1351915752
Yes, It is in Spanish.

That is the right one. If all care are take to use it that should result in a very great adhesion.

if you have trouble with it please pm me a picture of your setup this should help!

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER   10 kW

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by MAGICPIE3FOCUSPOWER » Mar 31 2015 2:15pm

I have received the goods!
Thanks for fast shipping and smooth transition.

Holy...these are big mammas :mrgreen: I think I have grind down a little bit to fit :lol:

See you soon in next order 8)
Nothing is perfect until I touch it...

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by tomjasz » Apr 01 2015 4:01am

Price of set, I need two? To USA 55987 for front, if they fit...
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by Doctorbass » Apr 01 2015 9:00am

tomjasz wrote:Price of set, I need two? To USA 55987 for front, if they fit...
Pm sent

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by Doctorbass » Apr 01 2015 9:20am

4 set left before next batch order.

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by ebikeaddict » Apr 27 2015 8:58pm

DoctorBass

Could you pm a price for a set to 96749

Thanks

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by beast775 » May 05 2015 8:56pm

Arrival-Thank you doc :D ,wicked fast shipping and solid packaging...now off to the garage.
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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by magna_503 » May 07 2015 1:57am

Drbass, I pmed u for a set.

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by markemyers » May 07 2015 8:25pm

Drbass i pmed for set also.

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by Doctorbass » May 07 2015 10:24pm

Hey guys, just to let you know that they arw sold out now,.... again...one more 75 set sold out :lol:

But no worrie i expect to get the next batch ready with i the next two weeks.

Pm me if you want some.

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by ebikeaddict » May 14 2015 12:32am

Hi Doc
Just got the torque arms, thanks, they will be perfect for the hubmotor.

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by arkmundi » May 16 2015 2:53pm

Doctorbass wrote:Hey guys, just to let you know that they arw sold out now,.... again...one more 75 set sold out :lol:

But no worrie i expect to get the next batch ready with i the next two weeks.

Pm me if you want some.

Doc
Thanks. Would be good.

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by camerons98 » May 31 2015 8:41am

Hi Doc,

Was wondering when they will be back instock as I will soon be building an Ebike with a MXUS V2 motor i'm assuming these will do the job nicely, and how much will it be shipped to the UK?

Cheers.

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by ecycler » Jun 01 2015 9:32pm

Hi Doc,

I need a set or two of these bad boys as well... did you get your next run of 75 in yet?

Thanks!
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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by Doctorbass » Jun 02 2015 7:59pm

ecycler wrote:Hi Doc,

I need a set or two of these bad boys as well... did you get your next run of 75 in yet?

Thanks!
Sorry, Not yet, i'll inform you all once they arrive.

Doc
CURRENT PROJECT: 2WD duo MXUS/Max-E ebike 32kW
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=65764
-Fastest speed record 117 km/h on flat
-Fastest 1/4 mile@ 114km/h on flat and 16.316 sec
-Succeded to haul a 19200 pounds schoolbus!
113kmh Gianthttp://www.evalbum.com/3406
Mongoosehttp://www.evalbum.com/1947
YOUTUBE---https://m.youtube.com/user/Doctorbasss
http://twitter.com/DocbassMelancon
I speak FRENCH and english

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by wooward » Jun 14 2015 2:08pm

Hi Doc,

My Trek 4300 (aluminum frame) has a removable derailleur hanger very similar to the picture shown here. Do you think it would be ok to drill into this to add some bolts or will DP420 alone be ok?

Image

Also, the video you posted on page 1 is no longer available. Can you rehost this or add it to your youtube page? I would love to hear what you have to say. Thanks.
Here is a little 10 minutes video whre i give you some details on the torque arm installation and some close up on my 3 ebikes using them:

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Re: Doc's ULTIMATE TORQUE ARMS fit most of the frame UPDATE

Post by camerons98 » Jun 26 2015 8:04am

Hey Doc,
An update of how long the next batch is going to be please?
I've been waiting for a over a month and I'd really like to get going with my build.
Cheers, Cameron.

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