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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby deVries » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:09 pm

maxwell65 wrote:I want this frame to go into production so i need to see weather or not there is a true need or interest in this,,,so this is what im prepared to do, i will manufacture this frame in 2 weeks even if i have no takers that are willing to take the chance at prepaying the 350.00$,,,,so that means i will make the complete investment,,but before i do this i need to see if there is a market for this frame so here is the chicken clause,,,

Hey Max,

The main questions I have remaining are:

1) What is the overall front to rear wheelbase & the distance (center to center) from the bottom bracket to rear wheel axle position?

2) Can you get pricing for front fork options and other hardware options? What are the standard wheel pricing options?

3) What about pricing for all the other bicycle hardware for the bike? Can this be bought as a completed bike with several hardware options?
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby slayer » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:29 pm

Me too Max i would be interested mostly in the wheel and spokes you were talking about...i have to re lace a 5304 it would be a great opportunity

the pricing and availability ...

of course i too think it helps when you lay it all ...
its very hard for us too know how it will look and what is available for that bike.
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby maxwell65 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:15 pm

deVries wrote:
maxwell65 wrote:I want this frame to go into production so i need to see weather or not there is a true need or interest in this,,,so this is what im prepared to do, i will manufacture this frame in 2 weeks even if i have no takers that are willing to take the chance at prepaying the 350.00$,,,,so that means i will make the complete investment,,but before i do this i need to see if there is a market for this frame so here is the chicken clause,,,

Hey Max,

The main questions I have remaining are:

1) What is the overall front to rear wheelbase & the distance (center to center) from the bottom bracket to rear wheel axle position?

i will find out from the designer and let you know by tuesday eve.

2) Can you get pricing for front fork options and other hardware options? What are the standard wheel pricing options?

front fork with shocks should be around 100$,disk brake package total 60$,wheel rims 23" will be about 60$ for both using 11g spokes ready for a 3" tire,(keep in mind it will be a motorcycle type rim found on 125CC motorbikes, rear mono shock not sure but 50$ should do it.will know 4 sure in a few days.maybe less $.


3) What about pricing for all the other bicycle hardware for the bike? Can this be bought as a completed bike with several hardware options?

for sure i will source out the complete bike once we go to manufacture,,,as well i will contract out the making of high end quality nylon/canvass type bags with handles to house the batteries and design it so it can easily be removed from the bike to bring the batteries inside to be charged,,,i will bring in only quality goods for this build,,,however for the beginning it will only be good quality components,,but not high end stuff,,,high end stuff will be up to the end user to buy on their own,,,however if the people here have suggestions on what accessories to buy i will certainly try to source direct from china or wherever to get us the best prices,,,,if this project takes off it will be sure that i will have special offers in the works.


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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby maxwell65 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 11:24 pm

slayer wrote:Me too Max i would be interested mostly in the wheel and spokes you were talking about...i have to re lace a 5304 it would be a great opportunity

the pricing and availability ...

of course i too think it helps when you lay it all ...
its very hard for us too know how it will look and what is available for that bike.


complete dimensions of this bike is being prepared by the designer and will be posted in coming days.
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby Green Machine » Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:44 am

Would a 4 inch wide tire fit in that frame?
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby bigisland » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:37 pm

Prototypes are a big part of the design process. You got a lot more to go to get the "worlds best e-bike frame". The best designs come from true artisans not importers trying to sell more potato peelers. Read up on any well known bicycle frame maker and you'll get a taste of what I'm talking about, or maybe the Wright brothers. But you defiantly got true balls as a salesman the way you are trying to sell that now! Man that thing looks awkward. Sorry but thats how I see it.
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby Ian » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:48 pm

good luck to you man and smart to put it through the ES initiation, it's not the warm and fuzzies you need is it. There is a need for a good e-bike frame. I use the iacocca evg bike imo he got the frame design just right.
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby wingtip » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:07 am

No offense, but I think you're nuts if you think this can be pursued at this point without prototyping of some sort. I should know, i have a degree in industrial design and have worked as a product designer.

With that said, i would add that scale models are often perfectly acceptable as early prototyping tools, so get yourself some chipboard and get to work! If you can't afford (or simply choose not) to do full scale prototypes, models help with determining interference issues and behave more or less like the full scale object would. Of course you cant ride a scale model...

I assume your first class frame manufacturer has some engineering capabilities so hopefully they will build something safe. If you plan on selling these they better be.

As far as the design is concerned aesthetically, i think you could probably use some help from some sort of a designer to sort out some of the awkward proportions you have in the rendering.

Certainly, everyone on ES would be much more impressed to see a working prototype than a digital rendering that could be done by any kid with a computer
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby oldswamm » Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:38 am

The reason for my post is to address the 26" tire question.
A 23" MC wheel with 3" tires is the equivalent of a 29" bicycle wheel/tire. So yes 26" tires will fit. It will just look a little like a frame built for 27" tires with 24" tires. The pedals will be 1.5 to 2" lower than with the design tires.

If you're taking votes, (and I would add that I can't afford to vote with my checkbook)....
I would want a triangular CM steel frame. At least triangular OR steel. I'm TOO familiar with aluminum fatigue, and these should be designed for 10,000 mi + of HARD use. I'm sure ease of battery R&R could be accommodated.
Same for the swingarm (steel triangle).
Tall tires are GOOD. :) So is versatility (tall-narrow/short-wide).
A production run without a prototype? Even a crude (function) prototype and/or models would be good!
Would like to see more detailed drawings, such as one with tires, forks, chain & sprockets, etc. (The chain rollers would SEEM to be something to be avoided if possible.)
It sounds as if you consider this design fixed, if so I will be waiting to read the initial reviews, but it might be a while before we get enough feedback to alleviate people's fatigue fears.
You should give (sell/loan) a couple of the first production prototypes to people who want to set new Pacific-Atlantic-Pacific speed records. Great real world way to quickly satisfy those of us who have doubts about the design and/or materials. :D
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby maxwell65 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:38 pm

wingtip wrote:No offense, but I think you're nuts if you think this can be pursued at this point without prototyping of some sort. I should know, i have a degree in industrial design and have worked as a product designer.

With that said, i would add that scale models are often perfectly acceptable as early prototyping tools, so get yourself some chipboard and get to work! If you can't afford (or simply choose not) to do full scale prototypes, models help with determining interference issues and behave more or less like the full scale object would. Of course you cant ride a scale model...

I assume your first class frame manufacturer has some engineering capabilities so hopefully they will build something safe. If you plan on selling these they better be.

As far as the design is concerned aesthetically, i think you could probably use some help from some sort of a designer to sort out some of the awkward proportions you have in the rendering.

Certainly, everyone on ES would be much more impressed to see a working prototype than a digital rendering that could be done by any kid with a computer


lets get a few things straight here,,,this is not as you put it, "a digital rendering that could be done by any kid with a computer". and in a very real sense this frame will be prototyped,,,the amount of work that has gone into this so far is unimaginable,,,we have been at this for over a year and you are simply seeing an end result digital rendering of part of a design that has no less than 70 parts all designed separately,,,to see all the drawings and schematics would make you see how real this project is,,,furthermore this is not a jet airplane we have here,,,its an electric bike frame being produced by a company that specializes in E-bike frames. as far as prototyping is concerned they have all the knowledge in the world in so far as designing this bike so that all will fit properly together,all the technicalities have been taken into consideration as to how the human form will be seated on this bike.once the first frame is built it will be tested for all inefficiencies and corrected,,,all parts,wheels,brakes,rear cassette,pedals,front fork,seat etc ,will be mounted and tested ,,,,and then and only then will the frame go into mass production,,,,we are not building a jet,we are not building a nuclear power plant,we are building a bike based on already proven designs i appreciate the fact that you have a degree in industrial design,,,but i also appreciate the fact that the company im working with produces on average a million frames a year,has a few engineers on their team and the guy that designed this frame has all kinds of degrees in engineering and design.if i was not working with people that are specialized in the bike industry then i would agree that i would have to invest countless hours and upwards of $10,000 to prototype this,,,,but the fact of the matter is, it is being prototyped,,,but its not gonna be done until i see the interest in the design that is presented.if people are interested in this frame and want to have it in their hands then simply cough up a measly 25$ or 50$,,,all it will take is 25 to 50 people to do this,,, i will make the complete investment to make this happen,,,why you ask? cause i know if 25 people want this then 25,000 people will end up buying this,,,if 25 people do not want this then the public has spoken.i for one am dying to have this frame come to existence as it makes for a great ride,no gas,range of easily 100kms at insane speeds and torque without having to get a license or registration. so lets make this happen and lets stop being sooo pessimistic and try being a little more optimistic, and most importantly,understand that their are very smart capable people that are behind this project. :D
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby maxwell65 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:55 pm

oldswamm wrote:The reason for my post is to address the 26" tire question.
A 23" MC wheel with 3" tires is the equivalent of a 29" bicycle wheel/tire. So yes 26" tires will fit. It will just look a little like a frame built for 27" tires with 24" tires. The pedals will be 1.5 to 2" lower than with the design tires.

If you're taking votes, (and I would add that I can't afford to vote with my checkbook)....
I would want a triangular CM steel frame. At least triangular OR steel. I'm TOO familiar with aluminum fatigue, and these should be designed for 10,000 mi + of HARD use. I'm sure ease of battery R&R could be accommodated.
Same for the swingarm (steel triangle).
Tall tires are GOOD. :) So is versatility (tall-narrow/short-wide).
A production run without a prototype? Even a crude (function) prototype and/or models would be good!
Would like to see more detailed drawings, such as one with tires, forks, chain & sprockets, etc. (The chain rollers would SEEM to be something to be avoided if possible.)
It sounds as if you consider this design fixed, if so I will be waiting to read the initial reviews, but it might be a while before we get enough feedback to alleviate people's fatigue fears.
You should give (sell/loan) a couple of the first production prototypes to people who want to set new Pacific-Atlantic-Pacific speed records. Great real world way to quickly satisfy those of us who have doubts about the design and/or materials. :D
Bob


i do not consider the design "fixed",there will be im sure changes made,,,but for the most part it will be very close to what is shown.if someone here has other design concepts that will accomplish allowing the amount of batteries that can be placed and has pedals,,,a must, in order for it to not need a license, then bring it on.
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby slayer » Wed Jul 06, 2011 2:17 pm

You know that if you look in pinkbike or anywhere you find frames that are used, not made for a e bike,more expensive than yours, more dangerous too and people (INCLUDING ME) will throw 15 to 20 pounds batteries on them and no that is correct ...but just won t agree on a good idea like that ...for only 350.00 i mean WHAT ARRRRE WE WAITING FORRRR. lolll :lol:
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby TylerDurden » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:00 pm

maxwell65 wrote:if someone here has other design concepts that will accomplish allowing the amount of batteries that can be placed and has pedals,,,a must, in order for it to not need a license, then bring it on.

That deserves a separate topic:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=29676
Have a Nice Day,

TD

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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby slayer » Wed Jul 06, 2011 3:26 pm

Max maybe you should change your title and say something else.. i don t know euh just ...e-bike frame be the first and save big....price slashed.
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby maxwell65 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:30 pm

Ian wrote:good luck to you man and smart to put it through the ES initiation, it's not the warm and fuzzies you need is it. There is a need for a good e-bike frame. I use the iacocca evg bike imo he got the frame design just right.


yes i do agree its very nice design concept,but as we all know here on this forum if you want real power,torque,speed and range,YOU NEED A GOOD AMOUNT OF BATTERIES!ALL E-BIKES AVAILABLE TO DAY ARE a joke in terms of what they offer in performance versus range,,,the most you can hope for on any e-bike available today is maybe 30kms range with any real power,,,if your willing to settle for a 20amp controller with a top speed of 25kmph that slows to a crawl in the wind or any hill, and have lets say 36v20ah of batteries then you can probably expect a 35 km range(no pedal),,,but take that same bike and use a 40amp controller with a top speed of 40kmph and does well on hills and wind,well expect that range to go down to 20kms if your lucky. if you want real autonomy and speed we need this bike,,,,anytime i want to go 20kms to take a ride down town i have to charge up once im their cause i know my max range is 30kms with my 48v20ah lifepo4 pack,,,but i cant charge up cause plugs are not readily available,,,,so the most i can go is 15kms away from my home,,then i gotta head back to my plug,,,,this bike will allow easily a 80 km range with a 60v40ah pack(heavy on the throttle no peddle),,,which will fit on this frame,,,if you choose to be light on the throttle and add some peddle well bring that range to well above 150kms.so yes, there are very elegant E-bike frames out there,,, but not real practical,,,and as far as im concerned this frame looks real cool and i bet the finished product will look even better in real life.
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby liveforphysics » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:03 pm

maxwell65 wrote:
Ian wrote:good luck to you man and smart to put it through the ES initiation, it's not the warm and fuzzies you need is it. There is a need for a good e-bike frame. I use the iacocca evg bike imo he got the frame design just right.


yes i do agree its very nice design concept,but as we all know here on this forum if you want real power,torque,speed and range,YOU NEED A GOOD AMOUNT OF BATTERIES!ALL E-BIKES AVAILABLE TO DAY ARE a joke in terms of what they offer in performance versus range,,,the most you can hope for on any e-bike available today is maybe 30kms range with any real power,,,if your willing to settle for a 20amp controller with a top speed of 25kmph that slows to a crawl in the wind or any hill, and have lets say 36v20ah of batteries then you can probably expect a 35 km range(no pedal),,,but take that same bike and use a 40amp controller with a top speed of 40kmph and does well on hills and wind,well expect that range to go down to 20kms if your lucky. if you want real autonomy and speed we need this bike,,,,anytime i want to go 20kms to take a ride down town i have to charge up once im their cause i know my max range is 30kms with my 48v20ah lifepo4 pack,,,but i cant charge up cause plugs are not readily available,,,,so the most i can go is 15kms away from my home,,then i gotta head back to my plug,,,,this bike will allow easily a 80 km range with a 60v40ah pack(heavy on the throttle no peddle),,,which will fit on this frame,,,if you choose to be light on the throttle and add some peddle well bring that range to well above 150kms.so yes, there are very elegant E-bike frames out there,,, but not real practical,,,and as far as im concerned this frame looks real cool and i bet the finished product will look even better in real life.




I agree with all of that 100% Maxwell. I also think the frame looks fine.

I would not buy an aluminum frame for an Ebike though. Cro-Mo would make it a go for me. :-)
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby bigisland » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:16 pm

So yeah; you should be more modest in you language, your obviously into the sales end of things and maybe that’s your inspiration. But I would have introduced your post as something like E-bike Frame Prototype Buy in Trial. Your ordering a batch of frames from an E-bike company and having them made to your specs. Nothing wrong with that. But “Worlds best E-bike frame”

the fact that the company im working with produces on average a million frames a year,has a few engineers on their team and the guy that designed this frame has all kinds of degrees in engineering and design


This only means your working with people who make run of the mill stuff, If they do that many it has to be. If I were you I would get a serious second opinion on that design, it seem really lacking in the blending of function with structure. I think a lot of the other posters agree also that the thing has zero “sex appeal”, but thats a whole other story (and your "big" company you are working with will never get you to far down that road) And look at those pissy rear dropouts, those little hooks are what they use for bicycles. Your e-bike manufacturer hasn’t even evolved those, just a quick look at ES and you see bicycle drop outs being mutated let and right cause their not adequate for e-bikes.
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby slayer » Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:19 pm

nothing
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby heathyoung » Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:44 pm

To echo some of the comments already made - the dropouts are inadequate. Clamping 10mm thick on each side would be great, as would horizontal dropouts. Those HT/HS35's destroy dropouts. Regen undoes fixings as well. People have stated that the dropouts on the greyb.org frame have not fared well with the HT/HS motors, and they are not what you would call flimsy.

Steel / Chromoly or its a dead duck. AL might be great for the weight-weenies out there, but its too prone to fatigue. Its also a shit to modify.

Consider the chainline. Those running single-speed would appreciate some thought with this in regards to suspension travel.

The ability to run wiring through the frame, and some sort of fairing would be good too.

I like the rear 'rack' as you could mount a controller under there (or above) as well.

Standardise the parts: BB and headset should be easy to obtain. Ditto with the seatpost, weird sizes not apply. QR on the seatpost would be ideal, especially if you are planning to have that battery removable.
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby ptd » Thu Jul 07, 2011 12:00 am

points...

+3, getting with a manufacturer. That is really applaudible, imo. Nice work.
-3, not having a prototype. If you going to spend $200,000, and don't have a working model, you must work for the government, and I don't think I trust the government.
+2, price slashed seems about right, maybe even a little low
-2, going off continent, imo. I know it's cheap, but I think so is the product usually. You mention world class manufacturing, with a tremendous wealth of experience in producing frames, could you show us some examples of what they've put out? Not to mention, you have a chance to jumpstart the economy in your area, to make a change, locally.
+2, large, reasonably efficient use of space for batteries.
+1, nearly integrated rear rack.
-1, claiming that the amount of effort you're put into it is unimaginable. I'm sorry, but with the talent i've seen here in just a few weeks, that claim is way off, at best, and insulting, at worst.
-1, touting it as the worlds best. 1, most expensive or time consuming r&d doesn't make it the best, just the most expensive and most time consuming. 2, seeing as how it doesn't exist yet, it can't truly be compared. (btw, what specific models (or builds here, for that matter) are you going to compare yours to?) 3. self appraisal is generally considered biased and self serving.

-1/2, you haven't even named it yet, +1/2 if you're going to have a contest to name it, lol

conclusion... get a prototype, make it on this continent, show a parts and price list, pray to (and listen to) the es gods, and you'll have a winner. THEN, get an accountant to start taking deposits. imo, never ask for payments to be made via paypal as gift. It severly limits (or even eliminates) a customer's options in obtaining a refund, and hence, makes you look sketchy (kickstart sounded like a great idea though).

PS, You mention this insane power and speed, with no license and no registration, but I think that's WAY off. If it ACTS like motor vehicle, or even LOOKS like one, that's how you'll be treated, maybe not by DMV, but certainly by every cop that sees you.

Good luck with the plan, it certainly has some potential, and a good deal of polish.
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby jonathanm » Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:10 am

Ok, here's my 2c......

Don't talk in hyperbole. This is a forum full of amateur and pro engineers. Nobody is gonna be taken in by sales spiel. We like facts, figure, dimensions, drawings, facts, and more facts.

Your bike is fugly. Not a deal breaker, because it promises a new level of performance. But you need to prove it first. IF you can make it beautiful, then people might be more prepared to overlook it's technical misgivings. If it performs exceptionally then people will overlook it's fugliness. If it is beautiful and it performs, *then* you truly have a good idea.

You are not asking people to drop $50, you are asking them to drop $350. about 5 minutes ago you were asking them to drop $600. WTF? get a handle on this....I don't have a problem dropping $50 on an absolute punt...or even $350 if it's what I want...$600 is a bit more, but if I could see the drawings, the development process, the plans, the rejects, etc, then maybe. Set up a website with all of this stuff on, it would only cost you a couple hundred dollars. Hell, I'll do it for you if you like. Send me at least 10 pages of info about this frame and it's development, plenty of photos and images detailing the design process....and I'll do you a website for free. You can send me a frame as payment if and when you get them made.

Drop the attitude...you make it sound like we're all stupid for not jumping on this, and when people tell you of their genuine concerns, you rubbish them. Tell you what, I'm a musician, ok....I've got a great idea for an album. If 10,000 people give me 10 bucks each, I'll make the album - you'll love it! honestly, it's gonna be great! I know some amazing musicians, they'll play on it. really. It's probably gonna win a grammy. That's how good it will be. Seriously, that's how you're coming across right now.

If it wasn't for other respected forum members here speaking up for your credibility, I would be classifying you with the various emails I get from Nigeria telling me about how all I need to do is TRUST and I will be rich......

Ok, I can see I probably sound a little sarky here, but what do you expect...I hope you see this as the constructive criticism it is meant to be. I would love to see you win hearts and minds here and make this a reality......

Jonathan
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby Red_Liner740 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 6:33 am

I just wanna address this whole proper-ebikes-NEED-tons-of-battery-space-for-speed-and-range issue

Im sure there are tons of people here who could cram double the capacity of batteries on their bikes without any issues right now. I know i sure can. I can stuff 12 6S 5AH HK lipos in my battery case which would give me 40kmh at 48v and a range of approximately 60km.

I dont run that many lipos and for the same reason most ppl out there dont either. COST! I calculated my needs and bought enough. Seeing as how batteries have a shelf life whats the point of having HUGE amounts amount of batteries if u dont use themÉ (damn french keyboard!) and will have to be replaced in a few years.

That being said. Maybe u need to rename your frame to a utility designÉ

Cuz thats what it looks like, a utilty, cargo ebike.
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby MadRhino » Thu Jul 07, 2011 8:26 am

Hi Max
I take the time here to give my opinion about it, although we have discussed this project before.
As I said in the first place, I hope that you realize now that no single frame will make a concensus, for the best E-bike frame is different for each and no matter how hard you try, you will be criticised by the majority for the design that you chose.

I find that you are doing great already. You know that this frame will not suit me, but for the price that you plan to ask, this is going to make better E-bikes than most here succeded to build with their comparably priced donor bikes. You need to design and show some choice of plastic covers to hide the battery enclosures, that would at least smooth the aesthetic critics.

I have to agree that a prototype has to be made, that can be built and tested with various configurations, by various riders. My bikes are built on the most expansive DH racing frames, and still they need to pass by many prototype configurations before reaching proper handling as E-bikes. You will find many small things that need to be changed, once you build one and experiment. For this purpose, I suggest that you first work with an artisan custom frame builder, before exploring manufacturing and marketting avenues. You know that the best designer teams with big budget and manufacturing facilities, all end up modifying a frame design for many successive years before making it a winner, eventually.

Good luck with your project Max, E-bike community need people like you, who are not afraid to invest time and money to make it happen.
[size=85]Make it fool-proof, and I will make a better fool.

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Street: https://s20.postimg.org/ewrvugywt/Session_04_2015.jpg
Dirt: https://s20.postimg.org/lbqwr55ml/IMG_0157.jpg
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MadRhino
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby maxwell65 » Thu Jul 07, 2011 1:13 pm

hi all,

i really really appreciate all the comments and feel i have to mention some of your names with a gratitude of thanks in no particuler order,liveforphysics,slayer,TylerDurden,oldswamm,wingtip,ptd,jonathanm ,Red_Liner740,MadRhino, and all others whose names i have not mentioned all is very very much appreciated....as for the chromoly issue it seems that there are a few people voicing this concern,i for one have a mongoose bike 6061 aluminum frame,and i carry 26lbs of batts which happen to be sitting on a 6061 axiom bike rack,,,and before i had the lifepo4's i had 39lbs of sla's sitting on my mongoose and the frame since 2006 still holds up rock solid,,,granted i do not take this bike off 20 foot jumps but i have hit the occasional pothole with no ill effects to the frame,,,although the axiom rack did crack, it was replaced and if you look at the rack it is very small tubing yet it still holds up to great weight standards and you have to bear in mind the axiom im using is one of their cheaper models,35$,,,at this point i have been using this rack(since changing the cracked one) for 4yrs and its holding up great all told with batts and bags apx 30lbs on stringy 1/4 inch 6061 tubing (approximate guess on the tube size) the first rack i used back in 2006 looked way beefier then the axiom and broke apart within 2 weeks of use,,,,the other part of the chromoly issue is that their are certain members that want to be able to mod the frame and they cannot do so with the 6061 as easily as chromoly,,,to those people i say,,,why not just build a full frame out of chromoly if its so easy to modify? as far as im concerned the 6061 along with the 7075 will be plenty strong as i know first hand my mongoose frame is rock solid,,,,plus planes are made mostly of aluminum and we place our lives in those things. if we were building a dirt bike and taking jumps then we have to consider other materials,,,but in this case i feel the chromoly will just add weight to this frame for a very small percentage of strength gain.it has been made clear to me that the 6061 will be plenty strong and i know my mongoose sure holds up great.

lets address the fatigue issue,,,it has been explained to me the 6061 suffers almost no fatigue issues after thermal treatment and yet some people are complaining that it does suffer fatigue,,,,lets take this with a grain of salt,,,all materiel's will suffer fatigue issues and nothing is invincible,,,here on this forum their are those that test to extremes,nothing wrong with that,,,in the end its always good to know points of failure,,,once i have these frames made i will be curious to test them to POF by placing bags of sand or rocks or whatever in the battery spaces and driving around taking jumps and potholes and post results,,,but in the end we have to realize we are not building dirt bikes,,,these are electric bikes built for paved roads and in the end are simply not made to perform to dirt bike extremes.i think in the end if you start testing this bike to extremes either the actual hub motor will suffer damage first as we have to face the facts those are certainly not made to withstand taking jumps,or we the human will break our bones before the frame suffers,,,so just how strong does this frame have to be?

about the dropouts: you do not see all the details yet of exactly what design concepts are in this frame, and my designer is very well aware of the dropout issue and make no mistake,THE DROPOUTS HAVE REINFORCEMENTS TO THE MAXTHERE IS NO WAY THAT THE MOTORS WILL EAT THROUGH THESE DROPOUTS.PERIOD.

IN THE END THERE ARE VERY LEGITIMATE CONCERNS about this frame and i can go on all day here addressing all issues,,,,but in the end it amounts to this,,,it will be a great frame for the purpose it is designed for,,,i have no doubt that this bike is the greatest e-bike ever for many reasons, a practical E-bike with good speed or as much speed as a modder would like,great for hills,and great range possibilities at a very fair price, i have searched endlessly on the internet for E-bikes in general,,,,some guys out there want 12,000$ for their concept hand made e-bikes that this one will still blow away in terms of range and speed,,,,and yes of course you can use lipos to accomplish greater amounts of batteries in a smaller space,,,just be sure you know what your doing when charging those lipos or say bye bye to your house as it goes up in flames,,,,lipos should always be charged outdoors or in a space ready to accept consequences IMHO.i for one will stick with lifopo4.

no one so far has placed .10 cents on a deposit,,,some are on the fence and others want prototypes built first,,,yea i want a prototype too,,,but i know that in the end its a bike,,,not a Ferrari or a Porsche or a nuclear sub,,,,prototype will cost upwards of 10,000$ easy...all i ask is 25$ from 25 people and i will take the plunge. (not 10,000 people like the guy who promises to make a Grammy award winning record) that really gave me a good laugh and although was a good analogy,to be fair is a greatly exaggerated one.

in the end it may sound ludicrous to ask for such a deposit on such an expensive undertaking,,,but in my view as i stated before if 25 people are willing to buy this then i have a product i can take to market.
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Re: The worlds best E-bike frame,price slashed! UPDATE

Postby slayer » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:25 pm

How long do we have to answer
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