93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor SOLD OUT

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by deVries » Jul 05, 2012 11:27 am

John in CR wrote:Once I'm happy with prototypes, then get a bunch of 4130 and have a local bicycle maker go to town.
If there is one product or item seriously lacking for your motor & on ES too, for that matter, it has to be a good ebike frame. I suggest rather than getting sidetracked or having too many projects going on at once, as a positive suggestion, *please* just focus on getting us this cromoly frame for this motor asap. TBH, this good oddball scooter motor is hard to find or even force a fit on a bicycle frame, so it's going to take a custom drive mount on a custom frame for this motor to find a home in an ebike application. It ain't happening otherwise, imo, except as junkyard Frankenebike art & one-off custom frame builds that very few do even on ES. Keep the voltage to 72v or lower too, because, again, very few use higher volts. You've lost touch with us ebike mortals with your hubmonster 100v+ 36-fet experiments. :idea: That's motorcycle "flatland" to bicycle ebikers. :lol: :mrgreen:

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by johnrobholmes » Jul 05, 2012 4:10 pm

Any timeline on when I'll get mah motor?

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by John in CR » Jul 05, 2012 4:44 pm

johnrobholmes wrote:Any timeline on when I'll get mah motor?
Quicker than the 30 days from purchase I put in the initial post. How much quicker is the only unknown.

John

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by deVries » Jul 05, 2012 7:44 pm

johnrobholmes wrote:Any timeline on when I'll get mah motor?
JRH, great to see you take "the plunge". :D I've got to wait for a frame option before jumping. Which brings me to my immediate question... what frame are you using for this motor? Is this for a mid/rear drive rather than rear wheel/tire DD??? :twisted:

What are your plans frame-wise?

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by Chalo » Jul 06, 2012 12:54 am

I've withheld comment so far for lack of anything meaningful to say, but...

...this seems like a really good deal on a really good motor. I'm not jumping right on board, because I don't want to open yet another project right now. But golly this is a tempting piece of hardware. It seems like it would even suit a quasi-legal bike at 36V, with the benefits of high efficiency, good thermal characteristics, and room to grow into something else.

Upon seeing the 10" bolt-on rim, I immediately thought of this tire.

Image

So how wide is that scooter rim anyway? Just, y'know, curious.

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by John in CR » Jul 06, 2012 5:39 am

It's going to be interesting to see what guys come up with for in wheel use, because the wheel size forces us in new directions. To answer your question Chalo, I don't know the rim width, but I'm pretty sure it won't be wide enough for an ATV tire like that one. Making a rim wasn't difficult though. I made mine starting with a trailer wheel. The 2 issues I see with a super fatty tire are:

1. Watch the diameter. That ATV tire looks to be a 21" OD tire. Motors designed for 13" scooter rims can handle that kind of wheel diameter, but not those for 10" rims. Performance would suffer. Ebike hubmotors are bad enough in the wheels they're designed to run, but imagine how a 9C would work in a 33" wheel. I get zippy performance with a 16.75" OD wheel. I'd avoid going much larger than that. A 21" would put top speed out well past 60mph at the 74V nominal I run, which would require awfully good aero at this power. Plus a lightweight guy ends up feeling like a fat guy like me in terms of acceleration, so going with the steeper effective gearing of a larger wheel is going the wrong direct. Maybe a golf cart wheel is an option for a cool fat tire bike.

2. If the tire width is at or wider than the dropout width, then you need some kind of bolt on dropout to get the wheel on.

Having a bolt on rim opens up the possibilities for unique solutions. If you DIY a rim solution, don't forget to plan how the tire is centered relative to the motor and dropouts, along with which way the tire is mounted. Due to the drum brake, the rim flange is offset. You'll appreciate the rim being separate. Built on rims means tires have to be mounted by hand. Hubmonster's tire took me 3 attempts...not a pleasant job at all. With the Mini-Monster we brought the rim to a tire store to have a pro mount it using a machine made for the job. Then we realized the tire was on backwards and went back and had them easily flip it.

John
Last edited by John in CR on Jul 06, 2012 6:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by John in CR » Jul 06, 2012 6:25 am

DeVries,

I realize purpose built ebike frames are limited, but solutions are coming. It's not something I'm comfortable putting first, because I have limited experience. Making the motor available to others with the proper skills, tools and experience is a much more rapid route to advancement, because the motor itself fills some existing gaps both for in wheel use and as a mid-drive. Forcing everyone to wait for me to develop some frames would be a disservice to the cause.

Regarding voltage, the motor is designed for 60-72V operation. If you want electric assist power and speed, then there are plenty of options. There's a reason I push people toward the standard voltage I run...Batteries become interchangeable. 20s of 3.7V chemistries are interchangeable with 23s LiFePo4. They can be paralleled to mutual benefit, and even the same bulk chargers work. In addition, it's conservative in relation to the voltage limits of the controller components. Going to a lower voltage means higher current for the same power, and high current is where the problems lie.

Climbing mountains takes power and mixing with traffic in the safest manner requires speed. This motor does both. Just like I cruise around mostly in high, I'm sure some guys will cruise around mostly in low. What I do with Hubmonster is irrelevant. That's just me exploring the limits, and having a blast doing it.

John
deVries wrote:
John in CR wrote:Once I'm happy with prototypes, then get a bunch of 4130 and have a local bicycle maker go to town.
If there is one product or item seriously lacking for your motor & on ES too, for that matter, it has to be a good ebike frame. I suggest rather than getting sidetracked or having too many projects going on at once, as a positive suggestion, *please* just focus on getting us this cromoly frame for this motor asap. TBH, this good oddball scooter motor is hard to find or even force a fit on a bicycle frame, so it's going to take a custom drive mount on a custom frame for this motor to find a home in an ebike application. It ain't happening otherwise, imo, except as junkyard Frankenebike art & one-off custom frame builds that very few do even on ES. Keep the voltage to 72v or lower too, because, again, very few use higher volts. You've lost touch with us ebike mortals with your hubmonster 100v+ 36-fet experiments. :idea: That's motorcycle "flatland" to bicycle ebikers. :lol: :mrgreen:

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by johnrobholmes » Jul 06, 2012 7:44 am

Thanks for the update!


I have an electric scooter that this hub should bolt right into. I'll be a nerd on a stripped down scooter, I don't care :mrgreen:

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by deVries » Jul 06, 2012 12:56 pm

John in CR wrote:What I do with Hubmonster is irrelevant. That's just me exploring the limits, and having a blast doing it.
Hey, I'm being selfish about this; :lol: I want your time with bike maker focused on the cromoly frames for this specific motor, i.e. not playing around with hubmonster. :twisted: :P
I realize purpose built ebike frames are limited, but solutions are coming. It's not something I'm comfortable putting first, because I have limited experience.
But your guy in town is an experienced bicycle maker, and your motor is already available. :mrgreen:

No one else on ES intends to offer a frame for this motor, right??? :?:

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by Chalo » Jul 06, 2012 1:41 pm

John in CR wrote:Watch the diameter. That ATV tire looks to be a 21" OD tire. Motors designed for 13" scooter rims can handle that kind of wheel diameter, but not those for 10" rims. Performance would suffer. Ebike hubmotors are bad enough in the wheels they're designed to run, but imagine how a 9C would work in a 33" wheel. I get zippy performance with a 16.75" OD wheel. I'd avoid going much larger than that. A 21" would put top speed out well past 60mph at the 74V nominal I run, which would require awfully good aero at this power. Plus a lightweight guy ends up feeling like a fat guy like me in terms of acceleration, so going with the steeper effective gearing of a larger wheel is going the wrong direct. Maybe a golf cart wheel is an option for a cool fat tire bike.
Sounds like 36-37V makes more sense for legal street use, then. I assume the motor has low enough winding resistance to accept 40-50A at 36V? At high efficiency, that's about 2hp, quite a bit more than most First Worlders can use legally on a bicycle. It's a natural match for Texas's "motor assisted scooter" classification. It's also somewhere in the 29 mph range at 80% of its free speed on a 20" wheel, which seems like a potential match of peak efficiency, power, load, and permissible speed.

Really fat tires are the only way to make toy sized wheels make sense dynamically. Using a fatty tire increases the diameter (improving rollover qualities) and softens up the ride enough to avoid having to open up the ugly, heavy, high maintenance, rider-specific, unreliable can of worms that is mechanical suspension.

I use those Skat Trak tires on the back of my Worksman trike. Though nominally 21", they are actually under 20" mounted and inflated. I assume that's because the tread knobs have been shaved off.

Image

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Re: High Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by The Mighty Volt » Jul 06, 2012 2:23 pm

Arlo1 wrote:The fets are IXFK230N20T see my power stage thread. I have what I believe is the best layout especially when looking to run a few fets in parallel. What I would like to do is offer the layout of the power stage with 6-36 fets for a fair price (basicly my cost) then have zombies make the driver boards and use some bodies board layout with lebowski's programing on the main chip. This should be a endless sphere team effort for a cost effective DIY controller that kicks ass. We can also offer a 80v (20s lipo) controller with the 100v version of the ixys fets for those who want to play it safer. I am 100% excited for this. If you de-rate the fet number in comparison to a 4110 I think the number is still ~2.5-3.5x as much power :shock: and these fets have WAY better cooling. The layout Im planning can have a liquid cooled heat sync or anything you want mounted on the outer part of the case to pull heat away!
Zombies has been working on an awesome board for the power-stage as well but I really fell high power mosfets don't belong on fiberglass circuit boards and I plan to use better materials to soak the heat away from the fet at the body as fast as possible!
Excellent, I would be obliged if you could keep me informed. Thanks and good luck! :D

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by John in CR » Jul 06, 2012 10:59 pm

I've never tried a high Kv hubbie at low voltage. I'd suggest using a capable programmable controller, because it's going to require some experimentation to get it tuned optimally, especially with the larger wheel. I messed around with the ebikes.ca simulator, and it looks like the closest cousin is the X5302, though the Mini-Monster is both easier to drive and quite a bit more efficient. Try the simulator yourself at 36V, try different current limits, and throw some moderate grades into the mix. What you'll find is that on hills the lower current settings may not give enough juice, so the motor gets slowed to a much lower efficiency range. You'll probably need a good 50-60A controller. That way you don't have to switch down to low speed unnecessarily, which will be pretty darn slow in low.

After playing around with the simulator, I'm a lot more comfortable with those who want to run lower voltages.

John

PS- Get something in the pic of your trike to add a size reference. By itself it looks like a little kids trike, but it's a monster trike if those are 20" 4-wheeler tires in back.
Chalo wrote:
John in CR wrote:Watch the diameter. That ATV tire looks to be a 21" OD tire. Motors designed for 13" scooter rims can handle that kind of wheel diameter, but not those for 10" rims. Performance would suffer. Ebike hubmotors are bad enough in the wheels they're designed to run, but imagine how a 9C would work in a 33" wheel. I get zippy performance with a 16.75" OD wheel. I'd avoid going much larger than that. A 21" would put top speed out well past 60mph at the 74V nominal I run, which would require awfully good aero at this power. Plus a lightweight guy ends up feeling like a fat guy like me in terms of acceleration, so going with the steeper effective gearing of a larger wheel is going the wrong direct. Maybe a golf cart wheel is an option for a cool fat tire bike.
Sounds like 36-37V makes more sense for legal street use, then. I assume the motor has low enough winding resistance to accept 40-50A at 36V? At high efficiency, that's about 2hp, quite a bit more than most First Worlders can use legally on a bicycle. It's a natural match for Texas's "motor assisted scooter" classification. It's also somewhere in the 29 mph range at 80% of its free speed on a 20" wheel, which seems like a potential match of peak efficiency, power, load, and permissible speed.

Really fat tires are the only way to make toy sized wheels make sense dynamically. Using a fatty tire increases the diameter (improving rollover qualities) and softens up the ride enough to avoid having to open up the ugly, heavy, high maintenance, rider-specific, unreliable can of worms that is mechanical suspension.

I use those Skat Trak tires on the back of my Worksman trike. Though nominally 21", they are actually under 20" mounted and inflated. I assume that's because the tread knobs have been shaved off.

Image

Chalo

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by thedarlington » Jul 07, 2012 5:21 am

29mph @ 80% 36v wow, however can someone clear this up then, it seems these wont be available to most of us on typical Mtn bike frames correct? it would be nice if some of these advances where also directed toward a typical 36-48v bike setup, even to fund research into the bigger motors, someone already mentioned how this excludes most ebikers which translates into missing out on a big market which could fund you guys towards more advances good luck on the motor and hopefully we'll see some more standard hubs in the future

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by John in CR » Jul 07, 2012 10:18 am

No, the motor won't drop right onto any regular pedal bike frame.

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by teklektik » Jul 07, 2012 12:24 pm

I'm thinking that the best situation would be to just manufacture swingarms for a Wallybike a la Farfle - low cost, minimal design risk, affordable and cheap to ship. Get a local machine shop or auto machine shop (same equipment, they just work cheaper) to turn the motors to remove the brake, create a sprocket/pulley attachment, and prep the shaft i.e. focus your efforts on the motor not a frame. This would lower the customization bar appreciably. Although it's nice to have the unlimited open options of an unsullied virgin motor, the draw of a one-trick-pony bolt-together solution would be worth the added cost to many.
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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by John in CR » Jul 07, 2012 7:05 pm

teklektik wrote:I'm thinking that the best situation would be to just manufacture swingarms for a Wallybike a la Farfle - low cost, minimal design risk, affordable and cheap to ship. Get a local machine shop or auto machine shop (same equipment, they just work cheaper) to turn the motors to remove the brake, create a sprocket/pulley attachment, and prep the shaft i.e. focus your efforts on the motor not a frame. This would lower the customization bar appreciably. Although it's nice to have the unlimited open options of an unsullied virgin motor, the draw of a one-trick-pony bolt-together solution would be worth the added cost to many.
These kinds of things are definitely in process. In fact, Farfle contacted me early on about doing up swingarms specific to this motor. I'd love to offer motors more ready to bolt right on. We were already getting into the summer north of the equator, and I felt it was wrong to make those with the tools and skills wait. Plus, out of the box they're ready to go with pretty minor work on a steel frame bike. I got a stock motor running on a bike over 3 years ago with almost 0 metal working skills, so imagine what the guys with talent can do. They'll be a great lead for all of us.

While a lot of you guys are willing to spend the bucks on your Boys Toys, I'm extremely sensitive about cost, so my push is always toward solutions that make sense for common people in the developing world. When you start shipping motors around multiple times the costs get crazy in a hurry, and the shipping alone far exceeds the original cost of the motor. If we were all in the same area it would be totally different. Then I could bring in a big batch of motors, make the mods you want and you come pick it up when ready. When I ran the numbers it didn't even make sense to add just one layer of shipping, despite lower shipping per unit in bulk.

Plus there's the benefit of more brains coming up with better solutions. eg When the cast iron bearing housing was too large for the ID of a freewheel, I dropped the idea of using that side as the drive side for a mid-drive. I went with modding the AL cover to make it the drive side, and the result of my haste in trying to quickly hack together a compact mid-drive to show you guys I ended up with easily avoided chain spacing problems. It wasn't till after I started the thread and did pics and measurements that it dawned on me that using cast iron side is the way to go. Even if I do some welding on that rotor piece, I can easily sink the heat away before it gets to the magnets, and it leaves ample space for no headaches. The lesson learned is wait to hack off the rim flange and to shorten the axle shifter side of the axle until the very end, because getting the rotor bell off becomes a far more difficult proposition afterward. I'm sure someone would have come up with a great solution long ago had I made the motors available in April like I wanted back in March.

John

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by johnrobholmes » Jul 09, 2012 7:19 pm

Got my motor today, its a nice bit of equipment! Can't wait to get it bolted up and see if the two speed is worth using!

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by deVries » Jul 09, 2012 7:51 pm

johnrobholmes wrote:Got my motor today, its a nice bit of equipment! Can't wait to get it bolted up and see if the two speed is worth using!
Hi John,

Hope you can take a few pics so we can see your setup. I guess you're using the drum brake "as is" too?

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by johnrobholmes » Jul 09, 2012 9:43 pm

Yep, drum brake as is.

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by deVries » Jul 10, 2012 9:15 am

John in CR wrote:
teklektik wrote:I'm thinking that the best situation would be to just manufacture swingarms for a Wallybike a la Farfle - low cost, minimal design risk, affordable and cheap to ship. Get a local machine shop or auto machine shop (same equipment, they just work cheaper) to turn the motors to remove the brake, create a sprocket/pulley attachment, and prep the shaft i.e. focus your efforts on the motor not a frame. This would lower the customization bar appreciably. Although it's nice to have the unlimited open options of an unsullied virgin motor, the draw of a one-trick-pony bolt-together solution would be worth the added cost to many.
These kinds of things are definitely in process. In fact, Farfle contacted me early on about doing up swingarms specific to this motor.
The question is do you have a commitment from Farfle to produce the swing arms? When? He's also very interested in building an ebike frame too. Your work-window with Farfle is July & August, because his school year will end these projects dead in the water after August.
With the stock motor I have no problem saying no mods are necessary for battery packs 89V nominal or less, with controller battery side peak settings of 75A, or less using a wheel with an OD of 17" or less, hauling a gross load of 400lbs or less. You work out how to fit it on a bike, and you can expect long-term durability with speed and hill climbing ability no other available hubmotor can match at this power level, and none come close in efficiency.
Have you got the stock bolt-on rim to give us some info? Are other scooter rims able to just bolt-on too?
What makes this motor so special?
- Efficiency- Peak efficiency is 93% and high efficiency extends throughout the prime operating range. The result is is about half the waste heat for the same of popular hubbies, which means no cooling mods are needed for up to 6kw peak input. It also means that you get more range out of your batteries. I saw a solid 20% decrease in wh/mile over the long term in my normal riding, same speeds and conditions.
What are the Wh/mile you get with this? Give us the range for different setups/speeds.

I do have to inject a weight disadvantage of this motor as a mid-drive or rear-drive with its 22-lb 10Kg weight. Or, even after eliminating the brake you're still at 18.7-lbs or 8.5Kg. Why not just use a smaller Mac/BMC at less than half that weight??? I guess the only good answer is if this is for a superpower fast bike... need a really good cromoly frame to do that, right? ;)
hydro-one wrote:Im feverishly awaiting some progress on this build!!!! :mrgreen:
John in CR wrote:Tell me [what] you want to see, and I'll try to focus more in that direction. I'm doing lots of multi-tasking, and have so much going on I get pulled in many directions.
Now that the motor is available... I suggest getting your out-of-work town bicycle maker some cromoly to build a frame for this motor. :idea: :twisted:

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by Harold in CR » Jul 10, 2012 10:58 am

DeVries, if Farfle can't meet the market for John's Swingarm needs, I am getting ready to start my first real ebike build, and, I can assure you, I am as capable as anyone in building things strong, safe and MAYBE lightweight, although lightweight may not be smart with these motors. My motor is sitting in Florida at this time, and, my son is building the crate to ship it, a couple Crystalyte 3540's, controllers, winding wire, and all sorts of goodies that are difficult to source down here, including my Mig Welder. My milling machine, horizontal bandsaw, metal Lathe and various other stuff, MIGHT be shipped at a later date.

John and I were planning a head session on Friday, but, we had to reschedule this until next week.

I have been overly patient waiting for John to get this stuff TESTED, and letting me have access to his bikes, before I had to spend a dime for MY FIRST BUILD, so I can be successful right out of the shop.

Any questions or ideas are always welcome, but, please, just a little more time, so we might work things out, down here. I have compiled a list of things people are asking, so John and I can talk them over when we meet again.

I am in NO way speaking FOR John, but, it's VERY likely we will work together to bring Ebikes to CR and options to the rest of the world. 8)

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by hydro-one » Jul 22, 2012 10:32 am

Alrighty then!!--- lets get one of these in a frame middrive spinning at 1500rpm!!!! John would u trade for bike partsz or ebike parts for one of these motors??? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: I will try to order one soon. !! If not im gonna end up with this cromotor in the frame lol :twisted:

I have now equipped five of my best friends with fully capable DH based ebikes!!! What a lot of work that was, but now they will all be instilled with the knowledge and desire to help others do the same i hope. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by John in CR » Jul 23, 2012 9:37 am

hydro-one wrote:Alrighty then!!--- lets get one of these in a frame middrive spinning at 1500rpm!!!! John would u trade for bike partsz or ebike parts for one of these motors??? :mrgreen: :mrgreen: I will try to order one soon. !! If not im gonna end up with this cromotor in the frame lol :twisted:
I wish I could do horse trading, but shipping costs really kill it. Plus I'm pretty well stocked up right now, except on good rear shocks.

I want to strangle my ex-machine shop buddy. Both my drive and driven sprockets are off center causing too much on/off tension in the chain to give it a whirl. Otherwise I'd already have test ride reports for Wahoo. It should be a fun little bike. I have it geared to expect 35mph in high, which should be fun at 6kw peak. I can easily swap in 26" wheels too, as well as a Nexus 3 mounted in a 20", which is why I went right side drive. I left plenty of room on the swingarm shock mount plate to put a longer good shock if it works out well. I'm looking forward to getting it running. I haven't had a bike this light in 4 years, not counting Clown bike which I hate riding. I'll post good closeups of the mounts etc soon.
Wahoo mid drive 0.JPG
Wahoo mid drive 0.JPG (84.76 KiB) Viewed 1581 times
hydro-one wrote:I have now equipped five of my best friends with fully capable DH based ebikes!!! What a lot of work that was, but now they will all be instilled with the knowledge and desire to help others do the same i hope. :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Power to the Revolution
Excellent. Spread the light.

John

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by deVries » Jul 23, 2012 6:06 pm

I want to strangle my ex-machine shop buddy.
Is this the same bike frame maker in your town too?

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Re: 93% Peak Efficiency 2 speed Hubmotor $285

Post by John in CR » Jul 23, 2012 7:11 pm

deVries wrote:
I want to strangle my ex-machine shop buddy.
Is this the same bike frame maker in your town too?
No. The bicycle maker isn't a machine shop, and is in a town 3 miles away. I haven't had the bike fabricator guy do anything yet, only laid the groundwork. If you've got a design and I like it too, I'll turn him loose.

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