Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $587

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John in CR
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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by John in CR » May 01, 2014 8:38 pm

jansevr wrote:i know what you're saying about the wiring...where it comes out the axle is a bit sketchy. how do you deal with this? i removed the electrical tape that was at the end of the axle and all the wires are inside of a thick nylon? casing that doesn't have any damage to it
If that tough white protector is intact then you should be ok.

Deal with it? You will need some kind of physical protection in case you go down on that side, or the bike simply gets knocked over. My plan was to just weld a piece of steel that would take any hits, but laziness got the best of me. I went down and shredded every wire in the harness....6 phases, 10 halls, 2 thermistor wires, and an extra pair all became a single rats nest of copper. When I redid the harness, first I cut the axle shorter, including a deep recess for the bundle to come out just before the end of the axle. The end result is that my harness comes out protected by my 20mm wide clamping dropouts, and it exits rearward to form the drip loop before heading to the front of the swingarm. I'd be dead before a crash could hurt my wiring.

Regarding your previous question about the safety of the bike at speed, think of it as a moped instead of a motocross bike. You wouldn't take a moped over big jumps or anything would you? Of course not. Your ebike will be a lot heavier than the frame's designed use, so don't go hitting big potholes at 60mph, or taking big jumps. Let off the throttle if the motor wheel will lose contact with the ground. IOW go easy on it. You can still go fast, but it's really the acceleration that's the real fun, so cruising around at normal speed hunting targets to embarrass is likely to be your typical ride. 8)

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by jansevr » May 02, 2014 1:53 am

yes, the white nylon protector is fully intact so i should be good. now i remember talking about welding a bent steel pipe on the end of the axle...(this was a while ago). i will probably end up doing something like that. it depends on how i deal with the dropouts/swingarm.

i'm not concerned with the idea of going 60+ at this point (in the right conditions). like you said no jumps and pot holes :lol: i'll just have to take it one step at a time and see how it handles once its built up. no offense to you or your bike, but like i was saying before, i believe that the square tubing in my bike frame should be stronger than a typical round tube frame like yours. also i weigh a bit less than you so that should also lessen the stress on the frame at speed.

i don't need it as a motocross bike, i mainly want something to cruise around the city with - so the hubmonster should be perfect!

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by John in CR » May 02, 2014 10:22 pm

LOL! Not only is my bike the fastest ebike with a hubmotor, but it's also the strongest tubing frame bike in the world too. The thin AL 3" diameter main tube had been cracked and repaired at the rear shock connection. No way did I trust that with my added weight and greater leverage with the longer swingarm. My solution was stuff the main tube with fiberglass cloth as tightly as possible and used pressure with multiple exit points to inject the epoxy. The main tube went from being a beer can ready to collapse to an indestructible aluminum tube with solid fiberglass instead of air inside. 8)

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by jansevr » May 03, 2014 12:57 am

i didn't mean to disrespect you or your bike in anyway. i was just speaking generally about the strength of tube frames compared to a square frame. however i was not aware of the fiberglass/epoxy innards of the frame. that is really cool!

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by John in CR » May 03, 2014 4:54 am

jansevr wrote:i didn't mean to disrespect you or your bike in anyway. i was just speaking generally about the strength of tube frames compared to a square frame. however i was not aware of the fiberglass/epoxy innards of the frame. that is really cool!
I know you weren't disrespecting it. Chalo made the offhand comment once about my frame not being strong enough like a moto frame would be, and he $hit himself when I pointed out that the main tube had a solid core of fiberglass. The one place I'm still at bicycle strength is the headtube connection to the main tube. It is quite a thick fillet of weld, since it's designed for freeride and handling landing impacts, but DH bike do fail there. I don't do any landing hits, and I do always use the regen at the rear first, but the headset does see braking forces stopping 400lbs. Because it's aluminum, not steel, I wouldn't be 100% worry free about the headset until I get some carbon stranding and do a really good multi-directional wrap to make the head tube connection a composite aluminum/carbon fiber connection.

I think you're right about the square vs round on the frame, though I'd opt for rectangular to get the most strength and rigidity in line with the bike instead of wasting the weight on lateral strength. On the swingarm I'm not too sure about square having an advantage. The swingarm seems to get more forces outside of the line of the bike in real world operation. The amount of off line flex I get with my steel swingarm is surprising. Being cheap hardware storr mild steel doesn't help, so I really need to build a replacement using 4130.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by agniusm » May 05, 2014 12:43 am

...but its a bicycle frame and solid core does not make it stronger and I just hope that you guys end up bruised but alive at some point cause 20kW on a bike is just plain ignorant in regards to your safety. And after you will think hard before using bikes frames with these motors. Heck I think anything on a production bicycle over 500w is inadequate.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by John in CR » May 06, 2014 5:29 pm

Of course my solid tube bike is far stronger than the original, and that is a matter of fact not uninformed opinion. Had I done nothing to reinforce the tube at the shock attachment point, it would have collapsed like an empty beer can long ago, since the spot repaired by the previous owner already developed a crack. That's why he hid the defect with filler and paint and sold it. Since I wasn't going to sell someone else a defective bike, nor scrap it, I fixed it better than new.

While you're entitled to your opinion about power on an ebike, flaunting such an ignorant one in this thread invites response. You sound like the little old lady who believes she's driving safely when she gets on a freeway and keeps her car a 40mph, but in reality she puts herself and everyone around her at greater risk. When ridden correctly on the street the only relationship between power and safety on an ebike is that having too little power makes you much less safe.

Of course careful consideration is required in selecting a frame for any ebike, and using extreme power not only requires the proper bike, but it also requires significant frame modification and testing.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by hillzofvalp » May 07, 2014 1:29 am

"Not only is my bike the fastest ebike with a hubmotor, but it's also the strongest tubing frame bike in the world too. "

...... I wonder why this simple process isn't used on production bicycles, motorcycles, and every other thin-walled aluminum structure in the world. Is it a special process/blend/weave? Are you using this in your custom frames you once mentioned which will fit a hubmonsterHE?

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by agniusm » May 07, 2014 2:35 am

Certainly i did not waned to sound rude or anything. My post was about construction of the bike not the riding style and speed. Everything has its purpose and i see people using this motor on the motorbike frames and that is OK, but putting such motor on standard bicycle is insane. Ignoring physics and mechanics is ignorant so calling my opinion for safety concern ignorant is beside the point.
Put your motor on a bicycle and drive in your yard at 10mph and its OK. Take that bike on the highway and do 60-90mph and that is a minced meet ;)

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by John in CR » May 07, 2014 9:01 am

hillzofvalp wrote:"Not only is my bike the fastest ebike with a hubmotor, but it's also the strongest tubing frame bike in the world too. "

...... I wonder why this simple process isn't used on production bicycles, motorcycles, and every other thin-walled aluminum structure in the world. Is it a special process/blend/weave? Are you using this in your custom frames you once mentioned which will fit a hubmonsterHE?
What I did is form a solid plug in a tube that was compromised, and was a weak design anyway. No manufacturer would do what I did because it's too heavy and expensive, plus it's not necessary.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by John in CR » May 07, 2014 9:26 am

agniusm wrote:Certainly i did not waned to sound rude or anything. My post was about construction of the bike not the riding style and speed.
Really? I looks like your saying the same ignorant stuff again in this post, as well as contradicting yourself between the beginning and end. How an ebike is going to be used determines EVERYTHING.
agniusm wrote: Everything has its purpose and i see people using this motor on the motorbike frames and that is OK, but putting such motor on standard bicycle is insane. Ignoring physics and mechanics is ignorant so calling my opinion for safety concern ignorant is beside the point.
Why is it insane? I put one on a downhill/freeride bike, so where exactly did I ignore physics and mechanics? I guess it was blind luck that I've ridden it almost daily for over 2 years, most of the time with a total load of 400lbs or more, yet this bicycle turned electric rocket now capable of over 100mph hasn't fallen apart or required a single repair other than a reharness job after dropping it on an unprotected harness.
agniusm wrote:Put your motor on a bicycle and drive in your yard at 10mph and its OK. Take that bike on the highway and do 60-90mph and that is a minced meet ;)
It's actually 60-107mph, but no minced meat, and no more danger than any of the motorcycles I've owned. Actually I've ridden it in the yard at about that speed, and it's a lot less suited for low speed in the yard than on the highway at over 60mph.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by agniusm » May 08, 2014 2:31 am

OK, looks like you know better than those building motorbikes with similar power :lol:
You ignore physics and mechanics in a part that bigger stresses require more material. That's why motorbike frame is a lot heavier than that of a bicycle.
I see you have grown confidence but yet i have not seen single calculation or at least software simulation on the dynamics of your frame.
Yes, you are plain lucky with your bike, but hit one bigger accidental pothole and your're done.
I guess you don't care if unconcerned DIY'ers would kill themselves or worse somebody else with this motor up on your twisted understanding that it is fine to use 20kW motor capable of 107mph on a bicycle.
I did not waned to sound rude because i don't flame you, rather express my concern that these ventures might end deadly-bad for you or somebody else.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by Bluefang » May 08, 2014 6:12 am

So Agniusm, do you drive your car at the max speed it can possibly reach all the time? And its a 30kw+ motor, pfft 20kw is the mini-monster. And yes its freaking awesome in a pushbike and mines more under built then johns.

John is selling a Hub motor, its up to the buyer to use it responsibly. He, Hillzofvalp and myself have all showed it is capable of using it at obsene power levels and in johns case speeds, on a length of highway. If we were not all pansies which only looked at the worst case scenario and then sued people you would be looking at Johns bike and saying good work for using what you had and making it work.

FFS it is not johns responsibility on how people use the Hubs he sells, they are by far the best that can be bought in this price range and efficiency. Yes you are been rude running your mouth off in his sale thread, ironically your comment about a pot hole is off, the more likely cases are A) if the pot hole was that freaking huge then he would avoid it with higher maneuverability of a lighter bike. B) He hits the hole full on but been a much lighter bike he does not "sink" in as much and with less inertia does much less dmg to his front wheel and is most likely to come out with a wabble where a heavy motorbike would have crushed his rim.

PS john I am selling the greenmonster for the owner to build another one for him in a custom superlight dirtbike/pushbike setup, if i get it right i might be buying a few mini-monsters.
Building high powered electric vehicles.
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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by agniusm » May 08, 2014 11:08 am

John is a fine chap and I have nothing against him or hes bike or what he does.
All I waned is to bring in some awareness about safety here, thats all, I doubt that safety is last and all you did was jumped on me like wolves on sheep.
Be it. Sorry that I have posted here

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by hillzofvalp » Jun 28, 2014 7:32 pm

John, what would you say your average efficiency is now after x miles? In this hot weather I'm going to tone it way down and see if I can do 50Wh/mile at 45mph. I think I usually do around 60-70Wh/mile cruising at that speed. This may be contradictory though because gains are probably really small by turning down phase amps at this speed, right? assuming I'm cruising and not gunning it it maybe doesn't matter?

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by John in CR » Jun 29, 2014 4:38 am

hillzofvalp wrote:John, what would you say your average efficiency is now after x miles? In this hot weather I'm going to tone it way down and see if I can do 50Wh/mile at 45mph. I think I usually do around 60-70Wh/mile cruising at that speed. This may be contradictory though because gains are probably really small by turning down phase amps at this speed, right? assuming I'm cruising and not gunning it it maybe doesn't matter?
My long-term consumption has been high ever since I ventilated the motor and went to 111V nominal, since it puts me running at the low end of the efficiency curve much more of the time than when I was running 74V. I'm wearing a full face helmet all the time now and have a much larger battery pack. Combine those with the ventilated cooling using exterior blades, so I never worry about motor heat, and the end result is that I ride significantly faster and harder than in the past. That's pushed me up to 70-90wh/mile. For the rare long rides where I need to conserve battery I hit the 50-60wh/mile mark, but I don't average 45mph. Unless I get on the highway where I typically keep it between 50 and 80mph, my riding is much more stop and go than yours, which makes comparisons almost meaningless.

If you're still fighting the heat, put try blades rather than toning down your riding. Also, go easy more of the time instead of turning your controllers down. However, if you have a standard daily route making good comparisons possible, I would try turning down the phase amps but be more aggressive with the throttle for a similar ride experience. That comparison would be to make sure your current isn't wastfully high, since we don't know where saturation is.

If you're trying to get more efficient for range purposes, then aerodynamics is the first place to start...maybe consider drafting cars more too. Whatever you do, don't slow to the extent that you're crossing paths with more cars (especially them passing you), because safety heads south in a hurry. That's the biggest benefit of my bike's current speed and performance level, because I use it to create incredible distance from cars.

I just picked up a 130/70-13 tire, which takes my tire circumference from 1530 to 1620mm. I've got the swingarm battery out for a small metal mod to fit the new tire as well as the 16" I've had for a while. It will be interesting to see how that small increase in gearing affects consumption and top speed, as well as compare it to the significant gearing increase of the 16" wheel combined with going back to lower voltage.

John

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by hillzofvalp » Jun 29, 2014 8:11 pm

Cool.

What do you think about wheel covers, front and rear, kinda like race bicycles but not covering the air vents on the motor? I think it would also make my bike look better since it could cover up the rim size mismatch

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by John in CR » Jun 29, 2014 9:37 pm

hillzofvalp wrote:Cool.

What do you think about wheel covers, front and rear, kinda like race bicycles but not covering the air vents on the motor? I think it would also make my bike look better since it could cover up the rim size mismatch
Done right I think wheel covers could address all 3 items at once ....increase aero...increase flow of air for cooling...and mask the small wheel on the motor. I've thought about it many times, but I don't trust my composite work enough to keep it light and have it close enough to the wheel for great benefit without rubbing it, or worse rubbing and then getting caught by the wheel with a really ugly result. Plus in the mountains I need a lot of flow over the disk brake parts.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by hillzofvalp » Jun 30, 2014 12:26 am

What about just using some abs or thin polycarbonate and cutting it in a disc but with a slit across it so you can shape it like a cone? or would it be better if it was flat? I'd like to make it float above the tire so that the tire can still move freely if you know what I mean. Attach it off of the threaded fasteners that hold the rim to the motor. I at least would like to try it on the rear first to make it match the front.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by John in CR » Jun 30, 2014 11:21 am

Ah, you're talking about an aero disc attached to the wheel. Just don't do anything to reduce cooling. I think one of the scooter makers puts a disc over the wheel, but I'd need to open one up to see the purpose. I believe we could use that approach to flow more air by putting the blades at a greater radius, as well as make the intake 2 stages to filter out debris. I'm not sure how it will mask the small rear wheel though.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by hillzofvalp » Jun 30, 2014 11:24 am

It can mask the smaller rear wheel because you can make it 17" in diameter and float just above the tire out where it transitions from tread to sidewall. (not actually touch tire but close).

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by John in CR » Jun 30, 2014 1:44 pm

I don't know, maybe post some good current pics and get group input, because to me the static shot on your latest youtube vid before I hit play the comparative tire sizes look just fine. The whole bike looks small, but it is a small bike to start with and you're tall and lanky.

That first time you roll on the throttle while running about 40mph or so really shows what I love about HubMonster. I've been meaning to ask, on your launches is that all the Kelly's are serving up? I ask because I think I get a lot more with my dual Zombiess high voltage 24's, and that's with my TT (throttle tamer creating a quite slow ramp up.

Zombiess seems on track to soon offer controllers with Dude's (Lebowski's) controller brain. Lebowski proved they will work on a 6 phase, and not only does that mean no need for hall sensors, but we'd get sine wave operation, real programability, and variable force regen. It makes me want to hire an electronics guy part time to build controllers and sell package deals.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by hillzofvalp » Jun 30, 2014 5:29 pm

electronics guy? like me :)? let me know!

It looks alright now but would look more futuristic and better matched with the discs I speak of. I've had a lot of mixed reaction.. but definitely negative when I had the smaller tire.

The kellys aren't behaving right ever since I replaced them. I think these ones also thermally limit themselves earlier than the old. Driving me crazy that I lost that insane low end torque, but probably for the good. It's on my list of things to fix. At <20mph I still get this really annoying regen sound.. sigh.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by jansevr » Aug 02, 2014 12:02 pm

some of you might have seen this from facebook...but for those that haven't:

i picked up a 94 Kawasaki ex250 off of craigslist locally for $200. came with damn near everything but a seat (only $50-75) engine and transmission. stripped it all down cleaned it up a bit and started mocking up the main components. John's hubmonster will be used as a mid drive. I will start off with the stock controller but might upgrade/switch to dual greentimes. still need to save up some money for the rest of the build - mainly a 4kwh+ battery pack (mocked up as a cardboard box with a black t shirt over it :lol: )

if i had to guess on the weight right now id say close to or around 150. 300lbs is the stock dry weight. im shooting for between 250-300 and hopefully around 40hp once i add some forced air cooling to the motor.

Image

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539 introductory pri

Post by John in CR » Aug 02, 2014 4:42 pm

Looks good. For mid-drive you don't want to go with Greentimes for extreme power, because the best route to high power is high voltage and gear it down. That avoids the need for extreme current. If you're running hot enough to need forced air cooling, and it's not while riding slow with a big load, then you're running current too high.

Note that running in reverse like you plan will require a change of halls and phases on both halves. Be careful not to mix which set of halls are which. During testing of the wiring combos you'll have to do it one half at a time. Each half should require only 5 tries or less.

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