Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $587

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by macribs » Nov 12, 2015 4:51 pm

Joe we need pics of that car, is it something lightweight? Home brew? Pics, drawings, renderings whatever you got mate.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by Joe90 » Nov 13, 2015 12:20 pm

It'a an Insight

like this : http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/200 ... -road-test

I did make a mistakem adaptto does not take 160v. I will have to use something else to get the rpm needed for 3:1
It's just to help current (heat) and improve power
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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by John in CR » Nov 14, 2015 11:20 am

Joe90 wrote:I am contemplating using them on a car conversion

158v nominal
2 x hubmonster geared around 3:1 to front wheels
4 adaptto emax
car all up weight 2300lb with everything including the passenger

Car uses around 11kw @ 100km/h

What are your toughts ?

Thanks
Hi Joe,

Sorry for the late reply. That sure sounds like an interesting project. Is your vehicle really that efficient through the air? Your first issue is voltage and finding controllers to handle it. If you find some at a reasonable price, please let me know. What kind of top speed were you shooting for, so I can get an idea of the wheel size, which is part of gearing.

The next thing to look at is heat dissipation. Will the motors be shielded enough to ventilate, which will permit significantly higher current limits and much better performance. If they need to stay sealed, then you'll need to get good airflow to them, and that will give you better cooling than when I ran mine in stock form in-wheel. You'll need somewhat better cooling due to the increased iron core losses of higher rpm even though at 2300rpm which yours could see at top speed cruise those losses would be under 500W, the iron core losses mine saw at my max rpm of 1150rpm on 74V nominal were only about 150W.

If you plan to gear for 100-105kph as a top speed, and you can really do that voltage, then sure a pair of HubMonsters would be up to the task even in stock form, since each of the motors would see about the same load I was running on my bike back when I ran mine stock. The max current you can run will be dependent on terrain, but flattish up to somewhat hilly should still allow 100A battery side from each controller. That's 400A total, so a total of 63kw peak input. With ventilation like I use, you can bump that up conservatively by 25-30% and still have much cooler running motors.

Note that these are all solid conservative estimates. While I haven't run that voltage myself, I have run that current and higher on my daily rider, and current is where the heat comes from.

I need more info to really determine if it's a good match. If you don't have a controller solution at 158V nominal, then I can fix you up quite economically at 111-118V nominal, though with your load you'd need to gear to a top speed in the 80-90kph range...maybe more if you have flat to flattish terrain.

John

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by Joe90 » Nov 14, 2015 11:47 am

Top speed would be 75mph
cruise should be 65mph.
The car is the best candidate I could find.

60kw input would be more than the ICE engine I have now that is 50kW

What I ''need'' (would like to have) is around 500Nm per wheel to have decent acceleration of the line but still be able to cruise at 65mph (105km/h)
If I undesrtand correctly those motors give 0.5Nm/A
So 500Nm requires 1000A which is too much.
Needed gearing would be 2,5:1 to keep Amperage under 400A per wheel and 200A per controller.
Wheel RPM will be around 1000 rpm
Motor RPM = 2500
This need 140 V plus head room or field weakening
140V loaded is around 42S of li-ion cell
There is the controller problem...

Up to speed the needed power output/motor is around 5kW
Input around 5.5kW

Cooling I can arrange ducts to cool an open motor

Maybe there is better options of motors ?
It's have enough acceleration and still have fast enough crusing speed that is difficult to combine.
Michel Cote
Norco Tactik Rc twin drive
2 VESC on 12S
60km/h top speed
2 x 2 kW max input power

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by John in CR » Nov 14, 2015 4:00 pm

Yeah, I think you have too much total load for a pair of HubMonsters to do what you need, especially since we always end up wanting more. I personally have much more with a single vented HubMonster, but my all up load is only 400lbs and going down as I continue to lose weight and gain power-to-weight. That will in turn allow me to turn the controllers even higher as acceleration times decrease for any given input.

You might check with Arlo1 who is quite active in the Motor tech part of the forum. He's working on an uber power controller to mate with a Nissan Leaf motor, which is apparently capable of incredible power. It's 55kg, so a lot more motor than HubMonster, but it has plenty of room for you to grow. The Leaf motor has crazy low winding resistance and is capable of insane rpm, so that means running it fairly conservative will have extremely high efficiency. To me high efficiency combined with more than enough motor for the task should always be the goal, because then you get high performance and durability with a drive system that can grow with you.

While a pair of HubMonsters could probably do what you need, but it's dancing too close to the margins for me to be comfortable selling it to a customer. This becomes even more prone to failure when you consider that builds almost always run overweight and the fact that 140V battery voltage is too high for a 150V controller, especially when leaning hard on the controller.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by macribs » Nov 14, 2015 4:32 pm

What if he runs 4 hubmonsters? One in each corner so to say. Think that will work?

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by Joe90 » Nov 14, 2015 6:02 pm

Thanks, for advice

If I burn motors by not using them correctly, Nobody will be held responsible.

4 wheels drive is interesting, it's just that I feel it would be easier to install 2 motors where there is already a place for this.

I will continu thinking about this

Regards
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2 VESC on 12S
60km/h top speed
2 x 2 kW max input power

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by macribs » Nov 14, 2015 6:58 pm

I am guessing this will be a daily driver car, not a car for crazy fast driving on twisty roads?
Maybe you can run those hubmotors as direct drive and change the axle to fit one sided mounting?
If you run say 13" wheels you should get insane torque yet find cheap rims and tires. I know hubmotors mounted in-wheel is not optimum regarding unsprung weight, but for a daily driver I think it will be fine. With smaller wheels I don't think you will need gearing.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by John in CR » Nov 15, 2015 12:16 am

Macribs, it's simply too much load for 2 motors run in-wheel. The factory has most recently been running them on scooters that weigh 150-175kg depending on the model with a max suggested load of, I believe, 100-120kg. Call it 500lbs all up load typical or 600lbs max, and those big loads for them to run 50A battery limit for each half of the motor, for 100A total and the all-to-common phase limit relationship of 2.5:1 to get some semblance of acceleration on takeoff.

Even at that modest 7kw peak power level the load causes longer durations of higher phase current, so the controller has to monitor motor temp and cut back when it gets too high. Compare that to the 380-400lb all up load I pushed for a year with my stock motor at running 16kw peak at the same voltage giving me great performance with no temp monitoring other than the knowledge and experience of the highest stress situations to avoid like low throttle up long hills and inescapable bumper-to-bumper stop-n-go traffic that can happen downtown. Somewhere right around 400lb of total load is the limit for going for high performance. Ventilation and/or a lighter load at in-wheel gearing is what enables going to truly awesome performance.

Joe needs to push 2300lbs, which is likely to end up at 2400-2500lbs, and there's no way a pair of HubMonsters can push that load well in-wheel. Gear that down at 2.5:1 and split it between 2 motors and each motor is still looking down the barrel at conservatively a load of 500lbs per motor, but Joe wants more top speed putting the load more like the high range of the factory scooter. To top it off Joe wants more than double the thrust, so even effective ventilation leaves him with the motor running at high stress.

The route to success with high performance is having plenty of motor, not running one at the margins. Look at the monster size motor LFP runs on his Deathbike, and that's geared to only 110mph max and pushing an all up load of 300lbs or so.

Joe, you should check with Zero Motorcycles. At least for a while they were selling their drive system, and a pair of those would be up to your task, though you still might be fairly close to the margins unless theirs can handle higher voltage well. 4 of our MidMonsters will probably suffice using 118V nominal, but 4 motors and 8 controllers is getting complex enough that I'd be hard pressed to recommend.

How about starting with a much lighter electric car kit like Kiwiev did? https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =7&t=69603

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by macribs » Nov 15, 2015 1:45 pm

Notice that I said he should run 4 x hubmonster. One motor in each wheel.
I've think I read somewhere you pushed the hubmonster to > 25 kw peak power, correct? If he has four times that power, > 100 kw peak that should work even for his heavy car?

Agree that lighter car is better, but maybe he must work with what he got?

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by marcexec » Nov 15, 2015 3:45 pm

I'm reluctant to derail this for sale thread even further, but if you're considering hub motors in a car, have a look at the LUKA EV project - they are running QS motors and show loads of engineering(& type approval!).
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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by John in CR » Nov 15, 2015 6:35 pm

No worries Marc. My threads are always open for topic derailment. I agree, since ebike/escooter hubbies aren't designed for the side loads of car use, it's better to go with something specifically designed for it. eg It took QS a while to develop one, and it's getting the bearings right that's the primary issue along with sufficient strength in the side covers to handle the side loads. HubMonster might prove not too difficult in that regard since it just has one AL cover...on the wire side. The brake disc side is part of the steel bell housing, and inside that brake disc mount there's plenty of material to handle a car type conical bearing.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by DanGT86 » Nov 15, 2015 10:23 pm

Still seems like an insane amount of engineering hurdles to jump through when there already is a market full of car sized motors. Seems even crazier when the idea of 4 hubmonsters and 8 controllers was brought up. That would put a builder well in the price range of a nice AC motor/controller combo that wouldn't require literally reinventing the wheel.

All of that pessimism aside, wasn't there a practical limit to how many controllers you can split a single throttle input into? I thought I remembered reading about someone experiencing interference issues trying to use more than 2 controllers.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by John in CR » Nov 15, 2015 11:43 pm

DanGT86 wrote:Still seems like an insane amount of engineering hurdles to jump through when there already is a market full of car sized motors. Seems even crazier when the idea of 4 hubmonsters and 8 controllers was brought up. That would put a builder well in the price range of a nice AC motor/controller combo that wouldn't require literally reinventing the wheel.

All of that pessimism aside, wasn't there a practical limit to how many controllers you can split a single throttle input into? I thought I remembered reading about someone experiencing interference issues trying to use more than 2 controllers.
Agreed. I went along with the request related to 2 motors because I had the impression that was somehow easier to connect. Plus 2 and the controllers would be far more economical than an AC solution unless Arlo1 can fix him up. 4 MidMonsters and 8 controllers could be cheaper as well if a 20-22s pack could work.

I remember someone using 7 or so controllers with a single 3 phase motor, so the combined throttle would be a minor issue easily resolved just like we do with 2.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by Joe90 » Nov 16, 2015 8:50 am

Yes I think that 2 x zero motorcycle drives would be the solution.

I dont need high acceleration. My car do 0-60mph in 12 secondes and it's ok with me
So A limit can be capped to protect the motor while I wait to attain speed.

I want a daily driver, a real car with 40kWh battery.

I just have to find enough motivation to make this happen :-)
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Norco Tactik Rc twin drive
2 VESC on 12S
60km/h top speed
2 x 2 kW max input power

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $539

Post by John in CR » Nov 18, 2015 9:53 pm

Joe I wish you luck with your project. Please share the process and results with the forum. One thing I'd like to suggest is that you use a power system that is capable of great acceleration. It's not necessary to tune it that way, but I strongly believe it should be capable of it. A key factor in durability, reliability, and efficiency is running at low stress. Then when you have an unusually hot day with passengers aboard and need to climb a hill, the system can handle it. One of the beautiful things about electrics is that the cost to somewhat overbuild the drive system is quite small in terms of weight and $$$, especially when you're already talking about a 40kwh battery pack.

The alternative is to build it to run at the limits, which is great for a race car that's rebuilt after every use, but a Formula 1 car used as a daily driver is guaranteed to have failures.

On top of all that, the days of slow pig lead bearing electric cars are long gone. AFAIC low performance electric cars are detrimental to the cause because they reinforce old incorrect perceptions. Leave low performance to the golf course, neighborhood vehicles, and bike lanes.

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Hubmonster 94+% efficient 7kw rated $587

Post by John in CR » Dec 11, 2015 6:44 pm

Sorry to all the procrastinators, but the factory notified me of a price increase, and the new price is $587. Of course instead of just passing along their price increase, I should have doubled or tripled the price instead, since everyone treats it as too good to be true. I'm not doing it for the money, so at least for now ESers can still buy the best hubmotors in the world for about the same price as motors capable of only about half the power due to heat limitations of their lower efficiency.

A quick summary:
The factory motor test report claims a peak efficiency of almost 95% running a 72V pack. This is now supported by performance preditions of HubMonster using measured motor parameters in Miles' Motor Comparison Spreadsheet here.

I personally used my own HubMonster in stock form for over a year at over 16kw peak input with a 74V nominal pack. While that was street riding only, it's far from easy conditions in this mountainous country pushing a minimum all up load of 390lbs plus whatever was in my backpack. Top speed on the flats was 66mph with exhilarating acceleration.

For the past 2 years I've been running at 111v nominal, and I ventilated the motor and boosted current higher for right at 27kw peak input pushing a heavier minimum all up load of 410lbs (moto tire in front and heavier battery). Only twice I've held WOT for more than a few seconds on flat road I got 103mph and 107mph. Though the 107 wasn't on a full pack it may have been wind aided. BTW, that's with no BS heat generating energy wasting field weakening to obtain extra speed at a heavy cost. My bikes have always been fast enough that I've never even experimented with greater than 100% speed settings.

I'm overhauling the battery to go from 30s20ah of mostly 20C up to 31s15ah of 65/130c Nanotech's. Since the motor has been unstressed as evidenced by the low operating temps and I have no shortage of acceleration, I'm increasing the gearing by 6% with a slightly larger wheel. As part of the beautification overhaul I should net slightly better aerodynamics. Higher voltage + less voltage sag + increased gearing + better aero = higher top speed, and this time it will be much better documented with video both on an off the bike, a Garmin GPS, Analogger with GPS, along with a well calibrated CA3. The fastest hubmotored electric bike in the world is getting a little faster. :twisted:

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $587

Post by hillzofvalp » Dec 12, 2015 12:21 am

Long live Johnincr.

I recently pulled my hub monster for good until someone dumps me a used one for the double wide I've been dreaming of. My motor has seen better days and needs a rewind anyways. Let me know if you run into a cheap used hub or if there are any more contests to be won

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $587

Post by macribs » Dec 12, 2015 7:23 am

Look forward to see more of the rebuild.
What kind of controllers do you use with the hubmonster? 31s 130v hot off the charger. Looking forward to this John.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $587

Post by John in CR » Dec 12, 2015 10:29 am

macribs wrote:Look forward to see more of the rebuild.
What kind of controllers do you use with the hubmonster? 31s 130v hot off the charger. Looking forward to this John.
I haven't decided which controllers to use. I have a few different models to choose from, and it depends somewhat on whether I want to stay with the vibration free under/behind the saddle mounting position I'v run for 3 years.

I charge as conservatively as I push my motor and as I ride in traffic, so normal fresh off the charger will be 128V. I'll do a dry run first and see if I think I need to go a full 4.2V/cell. The 2 speed runs I videoed 2 years ago were with a higher internal resistance battery (more voltage sag) charged normally and with several miles of discharge. It was too terrifying for practice runs back then, since I had a cheap Kenda Flame bicycle tire on the front. :shock: Now, with a proper tire on front, the only concern is whether I want to post and promote a video of that speed on a road. The longest straight at the local racetrack is only 600m with a hairpin curve immediately afterward, so I'm hesitant to even run the 1/4 there, which they do on Monday nights. I need to make it pretty enough to contact the TV reporter who's been after me for a story, and then they can more easily get an airport permission as well as handle the offboard video.

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $587

Post by pucksterpete » Dec 12, 2015 10:32 am

Do you have any links to photos or videos of your bike?
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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $587

Post by John in CR » Dec 12, 2015 1:15 pm

pucksterpete wrote:Do you have any links to photos or videos of your bike?
Page 1 of this thread is how I ran it for over a year at 74V nominal. Here's a side and rear view.
SuperV with Hubmonster HE b.JPG
Cannondale SuperV stock HubMonster at 16kw peak input 66mph+
SuperV with Hubmonster HE b.JPG (40.81 KiB) Viewed 1445 times
SuperV with Hubmonster HE rear.JPG
Cannondale SuperV stock HubMonster at 16kw peak input
SuperV with Hubmonster HE rear.JPG (28.32 KiB) Viewed 1445 times
When I went from 74V to 111V, I considered the extra 10s an experiment, and duct taped much of the pack to the frame...not much eye appeal. It worked so well that I was complacent for 2 years and left it that way using theft deterrence as my only excuse other than laziness.
SuperV sml.JPG
SuperV vented HubMonster 111V nominal 245A peak 100mph+
SuperV sml.JPG (42.68 KiB) Viewed 1445 times

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $587

Post by madin88 » Dec 14, 2015 5:09 pm

from the pics, pushing that frame to 100mph seems to be suicidal. you really should stop beeing lazy and build a new bike with that motor that is safe and suitable for daily use :)
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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $587

Post by John in CR » Dec 14, 2015 9:26 pm

madin88 wrote:...pushing that frame to 100mph seems to be suicidal...
Chalo said something similar once, and after I explained my mods to the frame he had no disagreement with my statement that it's likely to be the strong downhill frame in existence. That's irrelevant anyway, because I ride in a manner that only the swingarm sees atypical forces. It's steel and overbuilt in terms of strength, but flexible enough to discourage me from high performance riding, which would be more likely to get me hurt. Far less frame could handle me accelerating in straight lines on smooth roads like I do, especially with regen handling almost all of my braking energy, which removes the bulk of those forces from the front end.

You're right, before serious riding I need accept the weight penalty and get away from any aluminum bike frame, or even DH forks. The idea that speed has anything to do with it is a bit silly though. What, is the higher velocity airflow going to blow it apart? At high speed the brakes can't put any more force on the frame than at low speed, and I'd argue that the greater heat to dissipate makes the forces on the frame lower. The kinetic energy of speed comes into play in crashes or striking some obstacle.

The tires of course see greater forces, but I run DOT approved tires front and back now, so I'm no longer concerned about my tires with greater weight and speed than a bicycle. Top speed runs are only to demonstrate HubMonster's potential, and I can count them on one hand. A few times a month I ride on the highway with spurts to 70-75mph, or very rarely higher if a curious driver gets too close for my liking. I use speed and acceleration to create safe space, broaden escape option, and increase visibility. I stick almost exclusively to roads I know intimately, and am overly conservative on new routes, but more than anything else my extreme focus while riding combined with a million miles or so of experience in how cars move and the mistakes drivers make are what keep me safe.

Insinuating that I ride a frame that could fall apart due to speed is just a weak negative comment attempt based on ignorance of the physics.:)

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Re: Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw rated $587

Post by cwah » Dec 27, 2015 3:30 pm

Have you tried to put a single speed freewheel on the motor? You know, just to make use of the pedal when cops are around... :mrgreen:
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