Welding battery packs in Europe

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schwibsi   1 kW

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Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by schwibsi » May 10 2013 4:16pm

Hi,

I'm going to finalize my new home made spot welder next week, which I'd like to share with you guys.
So if anybody needs a battery pack made in the EU, I'm your guy ;-)

For friends and family I make Sony Konion V3 packs. But if you prefer other cells for some reason, I'll be happy to use those, too.
The packs can have practically any shape you want. Just let me know, and we'll figure something out.

Here are a few pictures of a pack I made:

The fuse and the shrinkwrap was still missing

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On this one the charger is attached

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whereswally606   100 kW

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by whereswally606 » May 10 2013 4:49pm

Where are you based?
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schwibsi   1 kW

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by schwibsi » May 10 2013 5:05pm

In Germany. Bavaria to be exact.
But shipping around Europe wouldn't be too big an issue, if you're interested.

Cheers,
Andreas

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by whereswally606 » May 10 2013 5:21pm

maybe in the future. got my own spot welder to build as well. i have the caps (most of them) the thyristor, and the power supply (many of them). just lacking probes batteries, the relay, tabbing wire and time. but will see in the future. thanks
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schwibsi   1 kW

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by schwibsi » May 10 2013 5:36pm

You actually don't need the thyristor or the caps.

Just get a 3s battery pack made from old cells, some 6 IRF1324 fets, a fet driver and the wiring.
I programmed an Arduino for the controls and there she goes. If you need the copper electrodes, I had a spare set made that I can send to you.
Also, if you need a battery pack made as the PSU of the spot welder, let me know and I'll help you out.

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by whereswally606 » May 10 2013 6:54pm

well i have the thyristor and loads of caps 16v ones but i also have and arduino so doing it with fets is interesting. that is cool about the copper rods. what is the code on the arduino do you have a copy? Im a c++ programmer but ive done java in the past and arduino and other stuff.
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schwibsi   1 kW

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by schwibsi » May 10 2013 8:11pm

Send me a pm with your email address, Wally

I'll send you the code as soon as I've implemented all the features.

Right now, it's only one button that will make the fet driver make two pulses with a short pause in the middle.
I want to make the pulses and pauses adjustable and show pulse duration, voltages and fet-temperature on a display.

I have about 2 days of programming experience and haven't done anything before the spot welder in the lines of programming. But is is a very good first project because in reality, it is so simple, everyone with more than a 4 days of programming experience, is laughing at me.

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by darren1678 » May 14 2013 5:58am

im in the market for a new battery,

using a 36v 16ah hobbyking just now

what sort of price are we talking for a 48v 20ah capacity triagle pack, thats what i'm lusting for!!!

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schwibsi   1 kW

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by schwibsi » May 14 2013 6:31am

You're going to laugh,
I have one exactly like that here, right now.

a new 13s9p Konion V3 pack. If you send me a PM with your email, I'll send you some pictures and we can talk shop.

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schwibsi   1 kW

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by schwibsi » May 14 2013 7:12am

Here are some pictures of the pack and some impressions of the building process.


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schwibsi   1 kW

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by schwibsi » May 30 2013 6:42am

A few impressions the new packs I made for some friends.

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by jameswalker » Jun 07 2013 2:54am

I just received a pack made by schwibsi. We exchanged emails for a bit - he determined exactly what I required and we tailored a pack around that. The longest part of the process was the friendly chat; he made the pack in around a day and it was shipped from Germany to UK in 65 hours, 20E postage. Excellent service, I would highly recommend schwibsi for anyone wanting a pack that can just be bought and forgotten about. No bms, no fires, sturdy cells. To top it off, a decent guy too.

I will post some pictures up if you like.

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by Degull » Jun 07 2013 4:36am

Where did you get the Sony Konion V3 batteries?

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schwibsi   1 kW

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by schwibsi » Jun 07 2013 2:33pm

Thanks for the kind words, James. I hope you'll have a lot of fun with your build.

I bought the cells in bulk for his project and some friends' projects, so the whole thing luckily didn't turn out too expensive.
If you're interested I can procure the cells or you send some cells over and I just do the welding.
But to be honest, I would advise against going with any different cells than the Konion ones.

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by Degull » Jun 09 2013 2:14am

I would be interested in buying some new cells. Are the cells new? I was under the impression that the only way to get the Sony Konion cells was to rip open Makita etc battery packs.

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schwibsi   1 kW

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by schwibsi » Jun 09 2013 3:02am

Yes, they're new Konion V3 cells from Sony. No used cells or power tools ripped apart.

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bose   100 W

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by bose » Sep 12 2013 2:09am

I recieved a pack from Schwibsi a couple of months ago. 13s5p, tailored to fit in a peli 1120 case. Perfect fit and good quality. Excellent communication and he is very helpful. If you are located in Europe I recommend buying a pack from him.


Here are a few photos of my pack
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13s5p konion v3 inside peli 1120 case
image.jpg (232.54 KiB) Viewed 9633 times
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13s5p konion v3 in peli 1120
image.jpg (195 KiB) Viewed 1985 times

cwah   10 GW

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by cwah » Sep 12 2013 6:22am

Hey would you be able to sell a homemade spot welder at good price? I suppose sending you the battery to you and sending it back increase quite a lot the total cost.

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schwibsi   1 kW

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by schwibsi » Sep 12 2013 7:36am

Are you located in the UK?
I have new Sony V3 cells here, so if you'd like me to make you a pack, that wouldn't be an issue. DHL shipping takes less than a week and is just 15€.
But I agree, sending cells back and forth would not make much sense.
Getting/making a spotwelder is only feasible if you plan to make quite a few packs.
It's not just the spot welder, which requires some machining (which I can't do myself), it's also the other materials, the hilumin and copper tape, good soldering station, good hot glue gun etc.
I'm afraid I couldn't make one for an acceptable price.
If you still want to make one yourself, I could supply you with the copper electrodes, the diodes, fets, wire, batteries and the program for the arduino to make one yourself. You'd have to make a stable mount for the fets though. If you don't have the facilities and skills to assemble the spot welder yourself, it would be unwise for me to make you one because we would just be sending it back and forth.
So, if you want to get a spot welder, I'll be happy to assist you in any way I can. But I guess, it'd make more sense to just make you a nice pack.

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by cwah » Sep 12 2013 8:31am

Do you have the reference of the new sony V3 cells?

Specifications, cycle life, wh/kg, wh/l, calendar life....

I was thinking that the NCR18650PF may be a better cell.

I might directly buy a spot welding station otherwise? Something like this one cost 162euro shipped:
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Microcom ... 70145.html

ps: I'm located in paris

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by wojtek » Sep 12 2013 9:28am

great news! im located in Luxembourg..

i may need new pack but somehow i would prefer to use less bigger cells than many smaller.. 20ah A123 seems to be simpler solution [lighter and easier to have overall control over each single cell] for bigger packs, let me know if you plan to have them available?
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schwibsi   1 kW

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by schwibsi » Sep 12 2013 12:05pm

Here's the data sheet of the Sony V3 cells.
http://www.repasebaterii.cz/files/img/d ... 8650v3.pdf

They are imho the best cells for most ebike applications out there. Only for very small and high powered setups will I use the VTC4 over the V3 cells. E.g. for a 13s2p 4.2Ah pack for my folding bikes. The V3 are rated for 5c discharge and 1c charge rate. And over 90% capacity after 500 full cycles is absolutely amazing.

I would not go with Panasonic cells. They withstand less current, have less cycle life and are not drift free, so a balancer will be required.

@wojtek:
To be honest, LiFePo is an outdated technology that you shouldn't use on bikes anymore. Also, 18650 has become the standard in cell size, which you'll find in Laptops and even Tesla's cars. There's just too many downsides to using LiFePo, the only real upside being the price per kWh. But, weight, handling, cycle life etc are huge drawbacks.
Don't worry about the individual cells. They'll be joined together in parallel packs (in your case) of 9 each, that will work like one large cell, and then depeding on what voltage you need, I'll connect them in series.

The A123 cells are 7.273 kg/kWh and the Sony Konion V3 5.165 kg/kWh.
2.1kg or 40% more weight on a bike is a huge difference.
Just think how much people spend to reduce the weight of a bike just by a few grams on other components. Adding so much additional weight for no good reason is just wrong. If the budget doesn't allow for it, I would rather go with a smaller pack than using an inferior technology.

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by wojtek » Sep 12 2013 1:18pm

thanks for your opinion and how do they compare to Turnigy Nano-techs?
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schwibsi   1 kW

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by schwibsi » Sep 12 2013 1:52pm

Well, LiPos generally have a very nice internal resistance, so the voltage only drops marginally used heavily.
With the battery size we're talking, with the Konion V3s you can put out a continuous load of 8kW, which is more than a dual setup of MAC or BMC motors could take.

The key problems with LiPos are
safety issues (the Konion cells are completely unproblematic by comparison)
not carefree: balancing und strict LVC and HVC required
less durable: they will not last as many cycles as the Sony cells.

On the other hand, they do pack a punch. The power density (not energy density) or LiPos is unmatched in battery technologies. But if I were to go for a small and powerful pack, I'd opt for the VTC4 cells over the LiPos any day.

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schwibsi   1 kW

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Re: Welding battery packs in Europe

Post by schwibsi » Sep 12 2013 2:05pm

Oh, about the Aliexpress spot welder.
Well, you'd have to try out and see if it really works well. The wires and the electrodes look way too small and I don't know, what capacitors they use internally and if that will really work.
On my spot welder, I have to stop for a break after maybe 30-50 double-welding because the 10mm copper electrodes and the 8mm² wire gets too hot and I'll let them cool down. The fets etc are fine and don't create problems. I'll be interested to hear experiences, if somebody buys that spotwelder, but I'm afraid it won't work out too well.

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