Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

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Tats   1 kW

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Tats » Jan 04 2019 4:02am

Thanks, Setting the Threshold to 0.0A gave me what I was looking for.

The EM3EV website says the 33G 14s7p pack can run 35A continuous and 43A burst and 12A charge. Hence my settings.

On the ride today tho the peak Amps was 38.10A and max regen of -8.98A. The regen matches my settings but the max amps is low, that's why I think the smart BMS may be limited. I'll dial the CA back a bit on this as I don't need that much.

I use the bike on PAS mode with a 2.00 V/Sec and a 12 pole PAS I just sometimes use the throttle to pass someone or get across a junction a bit quicker. I'll look at a torque PAS soon tho as Justin has some more options available now.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by magooXI@aol.com » Jan 19 2019 7:29pm

Marin wrote:
Jul 30 2016 4:11pm
Just received a Phaserunner controller, so exciting, maybe a bit over my head, I have been reading this thread and on the Grin site for months for education and information purposes.

I have a bike on the stand with a new QS 30H DD motor mounted, AFAIK motor is 1500w with 23 pole pairs, Phaserunner mounted on heatsink, 52v 11 AH Litium battery with 50 amp bms, V2 CA DPS, Half twist throttle.

All wired up ( throttle direct to controller) and spinning motor nicely but in reverse, Phase wires are Y-Y, G-G, B-B, switching G and B results in stuttering/shuddering.

Connect USB-TTL cable to Mac OS El Capitan with Phase Runner Suite and controller connects fine, Auto tune Static test makes motor buzz but then says motor not detected make sure all 3 phase wires are connected to motor windings.

I have tested connections may times but cannot get past this stage.

Motor works well with grinfineon and work well in reverse with phase runner so it seems connected.

I thought I’d give it a shot here before I bring it in for set up.

I will be using a CA V3 but didn’t want to scavenge it off another bike, I will if it helps to make this setup run.

Oh and 6 times blinking is constant.


Image
I have a CA3 / Phaserunner / BBSHD setup. I ran the test initially which spun the wheel properly, but after the 3rd test I can hear the motor during the test.. but the internal gears are not spinning. I swapped motors from my other bike thinking this was the problem.
Last edited by magooXI@aol.com on Jan 21 2019 12:40am, edited 1 time in total.

kevinscargobike   1 W

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by kevinscargobike » Jan 19 2019 11:16pm

Could it just be the reverse checkbox? (I didn’t double check, but I think I recall that being a thing)

davideserin   10 mW

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Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by davideserin » Jan 20 2019 4:24am

magooXI@aol.com wrote:
Marin wrote:
Jul 30 2016 4:11pm
Just received a Phaserunner controller, so exciting, maybe a bit over my head, I have been reading this thread and on the Grin site for months for education and information purposes.

I have a bike on the stand with a new QS 30H DD motor mounted, AFAIK motor is 1500w with 23 pole pairs, Phaserunner mounted on heatsink, 52v 11 AH Litium battery with 50 amp bms, V2 CA DPS, Half twist throttle.

All wired up ( throttle direct to controller) and spinning motor nicely but in reverse, Phase wires are Y-Y, G-G, B-B, switching G and B results in stuttering/shuddering.

Connect USB-TTL cable to Mac OS El Capitan with Phase Runner Suite and controller connects fine, Auto tune Static test makes motor buzz but then says motor not detected make sure all 3 phase wires are connected to motor windings.

I have tested connections may times but cannot get past this stage.

Motor works well with grinfineon and work well in reverse with phase runner so it seems connected.

I thought I’d give it a shot here before I bring it in for set up.

I will be using a CA V3 but didn’t want to scavenge it off another bike, I will if it helps to make this setup run.

Oh and 6 times blinking is constant.


Image
I have a CA3 / Phaserunner / BBSHD setup. I ran the test initially which spun the wheel properly, but after the 3rd test I can hear the motor during the test.. but the internal gears are not spinning. I swapped motors from my other bike thinking this was the problem.

This has been a nightmare. Same result. I am desperate at this point to get this working.. Can someone help me?

magooXI@aol.com   10 µW

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by magooXI@aol.com » Jan 24 2019 9:49pm

kevinscargobike wrote:
Jan 19 2019 11:16pm
Could it just be the reverse checkbox? (I didn’t double check, but I think I recall that being a thing)
Figured it out. The CA wasn't loaded properly with the correct firmware.

Now I'm trying to figure out an ON / OFF switch for 84V / BBSHD / PR / CA3. This thing sparks like crazy every time I disconnect it. Dielectric grease has made the spark even more intense.

magooXI@aol.com   10 µW

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by magooXI@aol.com » Jan 24 2019 10:04pm

davideserin wrote:
Oct 19 2018 1:25pm
My error message came back, it had only gone because the battery voltage went below 84v. The error message is a result of the battery voltage being higher than the Regen voltage start/end range, regardless of whether you're using it or not.

Warnings[8]: VdcHighFLDBK

I also resolved my issue with the G01 (SWXH)) motor. I had mistaken it for another model on Bafang's spec sheets. So with the correct pole count of 44, it tests fine.

It worked fine with the basic settings. I've set it to 40 phase amps and 15 battery amps.
How did you clear the Warnings[8]: VdcHighFLDBK?

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Killer-B   10 mW

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Killer-B » Feb 08 2019 6:41pm

magooXI@aol.com wrote:
Jan 24 2019 9:49pm
kevinscargobike wrote:
Jan 19 2019 11:16pm
Could it just be the reverse checkbox? (I didn’t double check, but I think I recall that being a thing)
Figured it out. The CA wasn't loaded properly with the correct firmware.

Now I'm trying to figure out an ON / OFF switch for 84V / BBSHD / PR / CA3. This thing sparks like crazy every time I disconnect it. Dielectric grease has made the spark even more intense.
Have you looked at the switches from ebikes.ca, I have one of them wired into the white and yellow wires coming outta the heatshrink on the throttle connector on the PR.. Works like a charm!
everyday commuter is a khs alite 500 with Grin thru axle front hub, phaserunner, battery is 20s5p x2
trail bike is a Norco with qs 205 5t with 120 amp Kelly controller 20s5p
first build rear 1000w Giant with grin 40 amp and 14s8s
newest is custom frame qs205 5t in moto rim and shiko d/p with Kelly 120amp and 20p5s +20s5p

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Max current of 5V line of the Phaserunner v1

Post by Marc S. » Feb 21 2019 3:24am

Hi Grin Tech,

Since the maximum regulated current available to power external accessory devices from Cycle Analyst v3 is limited, I was wondering if my Phaserunner v1 can power the hall throttle, 3x hall brake sensors, PAS, etc (drawing between 25-30mA combined); if I use a 74V (20s) battery.

What is the max current of the 5V line, the Phaserunner can safely provide at up to 90V?

Thanks!

Best regards

Marc

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justin_le   10 MW

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by justin_le » Feb 25 2019 6:26am

Marc S. wrote:
Feb 21 2019 3:24am
What is the max current of the 5V line, the Phaserunner can safely provide at up to 90V?
I will try to get a proper empirical answer to this soon, but suffice to say it's well above what any normal set of ebike accessories (PAS sensors, brake cutoffs, throttles etc) would draw. The 5V output is coming from a DC-DC buck regulator, so it doesn't have the same reduced output at higher voltages that the CA has with its linear regulator.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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justin_le   10 MW

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Phaserunner Thermal Rollback Characterization in Wind Tunnel

Post by justin_le » Feb 25 2019 7:24am

justin_le wrote:
Aug 03 2015 3:42pm
Do post the results of this. I'm not sure when I'll get time to do the promised wind tunnel thermal dissipation tests so any data points here will be appreciated.
It turns out the time came to pass in December 2018!
Phaserunner in Wind Tunnel.jpg
The setup was a fun. You can see the phaserunner zip tied to a diagonal tube representing the downtube on a bicycle. For the load motor, I have two large DD hubs with 45mm wide stators that are bolted to each other. The first motor is hooked up the phaserunner, while the 2nd motor has the output phase wires shorted together in order to provide significant resistance, and a resistance that will increase with the drive RPM. That way as the phaserunner goes into thermal rollback, the torque will decreases and then the load motor RPM will similarly decrease to a value that produces a matching torque.

In my first tests I was using a standard 9C style hub motors with 27mm stators, and that was totally inadequate. It got over 150 degrees in no time, and even with the windings fully shorted couldn't provide sufficient resistance to fully load the phaserunner to get into thermal rollback at the higher wind speeds.
Load Motors.jpg
Anyways, with the two 45mm motors back to back with Statorade added it worked great. The results show about 40 amps of continuous phase current when crawling at 5kph. with it increasing to 50 amps at 20 kph and reaching 55A at 45 kph.
Phaerunner Thermal Rollback.jpg
Phaerunner Thermal Rollback.jpg (41.87 KiB) Viewed 154 times
This is with the phaserunner mounted on top of the tube, where the heatsink it is somewhat in the wind shadow of the tubing itself. I was curious to see if there was much difference if the Phaserunner was hanging under the downtube, both with it inverted and the heatisink facing into the wind, or more conventionally done with the heatsink against the frame tubing and having thermal contact to the metal.
Phaserunner Hanging.jpg
Phaserunner Hanging.jpg (146.88 KiB) Viewed 154 times
Phaserunner Hanging Inverted.jpg
Phaserunner Hanging Inverted.jpg (146.8 KiB) Viewed 154 times
I also did the test with a large finned heatsink attached to the Phaserunner.
Heatsunk Phaserunner.jpg
Heatsunk Phaserunner.jpg (123.16 KiB) Viewed 154 times
The results show that the varied orientations of the stock Phaserunner didn't change the effective thermal rollback current, so the lesson here is that you can strap it to the bike however you like, and so long as it's in the air stream it'll give similar continuous phase currents.
Phaserunner Varied Mount Thermal Rollback.jpg
Phaserunner Varied Mount Thermal Rollback.jpg (57.4 KiB) Viewed 154 times
The additional heatsink not surprisingly had a large effect, allowing 60 amps continuous at 10 kph and approaching 70 amps at high speeds. I couldn't actually complete the 40 kph test since the combination of the wind tunnel fan and the Phaserunner power to drive the load motors kept blowing the 20A breaker feeding the lab room.

Hopefully this info is useful for people doing planning. What I realized doing this is that even though the Phaserunner heats up much faster than a hub motor due to its much lower thermal mass, it actually has a higher steady state current capability than all but the very largest DD hub motors. Most common hub motors in the higher power class (MAC, Crystalyte 'H', 9C, Bafang BPM / CST etc) will eventually overheat with phase currents in the 30-40A realm. With these setups longer term hill climbing power limit bottleneck would be coming from the hub motor and not the phaserunner motor controller.

The phaserunner controller will generally go into thermal rollback first, but then the motor will keep getting hotter and hotter until it takes over starts driving the thermal rollback via a CA3 device, which will reduce the phase currents even further than what the PR was limiting it to.
Currently recovering from the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with Grin all-axle front hub, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah Cellman triangle pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Phaserunner Thermal Rollback Characterization in Wind Tunnel

Post by amberwolf » Feb 25 2019 11:11pm

justin_le wrote:
Feb 25 2019 7:24am
The phaserunner controller will generally go into thermal rollback first, but then the motor will keep getting hotter and hotter until it takes over starts driving the thermal rollback via a CA3 device, which will reduce the phase currents even further than what the PR was limiting it to.
Too bad the PR doesn't have a secondary thermistor input (and firmware segment to monitor it, too). ;)

Then it could deal with it all on it's own, no external device needed. :)

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