Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

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Lebowski   1 GW

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Lebowski » Apr 26 2018 10:32am

justin_le wrote:
Apr 26 2018 4:17am
Lebowski wrote:
Apr 21 2018 1:20am
Making the controller parameters motor independent is no big deal, and it (well, mine) doesnt need to know motor inertia....
Ah sorry I should have clarified, not motor inertia but the overall total vehicle inertia. At least the way that ASI has written their sensorless self start firmware it runs open loop at a steadily increasing RPM before switching over to closed loop control. So if it tries initially to ramp up the speed faster than the motor torque can actually accelerate the vehicle mass, then it will tend to shudder.

There are surely many more optimal sensorless self starting algorithms possible! But this is what we've got to work with here. Would love it of course if Lebowski was head of ASI's firmware team ;-)
Are they hiring ? :lol:

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by zro-1 » Apr 26 2018 6:00pm

tomjasz wrote:
Apr 24 2018 1:04pm
Alan B wrote:
Apr 21 2018 11:30am

I have very mixed feelings about the Higo connectors. They look nice but aren't something we can DIY on a piece of cable, as far as I've seen. If they are then where are the DIY kits?
I also really like the Higo, but find nothing for the DIY fella, and availability and pricing of pigtails is disappointing. Still I like kits with them integrated for ease of build.
Sounds like an opportunity for Grin to fill a need. ;) -- At least with offering 3-6pin cables with bare wires on one end that we can connect in to our harnesses and components.
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by cwah » May 19 2018 6:31am

I keep having this error:
"POST Static Gate Test Outside Range"

It's very dangerous because this happens intently. Sometimes I'm in the middle of the road and there is a sudden power cut!!!

I need to restart the controller and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't!!

Can you help please?

Thanks
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by amberwolf » May 19 2018 12:52pm

zro-1 wrote:
Apr 26 2018 6:00pm

Sounds like an opportunity for Grin to fill a need. ;) -- At least with offering 3-6pin cables with bare wires on one end that we can connect in to our harnesses and components.
ATM the only place I've seen those individually for sale is the ebiketechnologies.de site; it'd be nice to have a place in North America for them. :)
https://www.e-bike-technologies.de/inde ... connectors

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by zro-1 » May 20 2018 3:15pm

amberwolf wrote:
May 19 2018 12:52pm
ATM the only place I've seen those individually for sale is the ebiketechnologies.de site; it'd be nice to have a place in North America for them. :)
https://www.e-bike-technologies.de/inde ... connectors
It looks like A&C Solutions is the manufacturer of HIGO connectors and offers a manufacturing service for custom cable assemblies. http://www.higoconnector.com/assemblies I don't know if it would be cost competitive.
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by tomjasz » May 21 2018 12:31am

I attempted to have some cables made but the MOQ, cost of bank transfers and other glitches, ran me off. I did a group by from Germany, but lately folks seem skiddish about repeating. The BBSxx programming cable designed to work with the Grin programming cable is great. I lik to have my bench computer 10 feet away as my setup computer. Juggling a laptop sucked. But not a cheap bit of kit in total.
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by cwah » May 22 2018 3:41am

I keep having this error:
"POST Static Gate Test Outside Range"

It's very dangerous because this happens intently. Sometimes I'm in the middle of the road and there is a sudden power cut!!!

I need to restart the controller and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't!!

Anyone knows what's happening?
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by robbie » May 23 2018 1:41pm

cwah wrote:
May 22 2018 3:41am
I keep having this error:
"POST Static Gate Test Outside Range"

It's very dangerous because this happens intently. Sometimes I'm in the middle of the road and there is a sudden power cut!!!

I need to restart the controller and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't!!

Anyone knows what's happening?
What is happening is the controller is measuring that when applying power, the phase wires are not shorted to something it shouldn't be. It is cutting power because it thinks that they are.

1. You have very dirty connectors that are bridging between the phases
2. You have a random short of your phasewires between something else (ground, another phase, etc), that is intermittent
3. Other determined with testing!

Check what the controller error is reporting for the actual voltages for the POST (add parameters under custom parameters #300 -> 308) and go from there. Also email info@ebikes.ca for support there.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by zukster » May 27 2018 11:08am

I've been using these small inexpensive waterproof connectors from Lee's and quite like them

https://leeselectronic.com/en/product/29257.html

I like the Higo's for motor phase hall wiring, but the above are smaller for throttle or lights.

I was having problems with throttle wires shorting with the JST connectors and my Phaserunner in rainy weather. The wires were shorting and causing my wheel to spin at varying speeds. Unplugging the throttle connectors verified this. These little connectors now keep all the water out. They come in varying pin numbers.

https://leeselectronic.com/en/category/ ... waterproof

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by cwah » Jun 16 2018 8:25am

My controller get very hot when I use it at max power.

Here's how I attach to my bike:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3sxzkoaqz2kgn ... 4.jpg?dl=0

How best to add a heatsink to push out the heat faster?
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Sunder » Jun 17 2018 9:30pm

From memory (haven't looked at mine for ages now), the mosfets sink heat to the big metal block which you've used to mount to the bike frame.

Get a good quality heat sink, secure it to that metal block with liquid metal/thermal paste/thermal epoxy (In that order of conductivity), then do a Missy Elliot. You gotta put your thing down flip it and reverse it, so that the heat sink faces the wind when you ride :mrgreen:
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Alan B » Jun 18 2018 6:12am

cwah wrote:
Jun 16 2018 8:25am
My controller get very hot when I use it at max power.

Here's how I attach to my bike:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/3sxzkoaqz2kgn ... 4.jpg?dl=0

How best to add a heatsink to push out the heat faster?
What voltage, current, motor, load, speed, current settings, etc are you using it with?

A heatsink can help. But there are other things that might help also.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by cwah » Jun 18 2018 6:55am

Thanks sunder and Alan.

I use for now a leafmotor 1000W on 60v battery and configured to max power 96A. Around 20-30mph

My main frustration is the starting power it feels very sluggy. My bike is quite heavy and load with me is probably 150kg. If I add a passenger it's really hard for the phaserunner. And if there is a slope its mission impossible
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Alan B » Jun 18 2018 7:14am

This is a small high quality 6 FET controller, at high current it will get hot. With a large heatsink 70A is reportedly possible. With the bike tube heatsink even less current will be practical.

I use a pair of PhaseRunners on my 2WD bike, it accelerates like a rocket and the controllers don't get warm. PhaseRunner's perform best with low current (higher voltage) motors. Low voltage motors require a lot of current and aren't a good match for high power with the low FET count.

If the PhaseRunner is not tuned properly it can be inefficient which reduces torque and increases heat, so make sure it is optimally set up.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Sunder » Jun 18 2018 7:17am

Maybe a dumb suggestion because it's too much work/money, but the Phaserunner supports field weakening.

So you could get a motor with a slower winding, and regain a few km/h back at the top through field weakening.

I also don't know what model Leaf motor you have, but a quick look says most the direct drive motors are 6kg and are rated for 1000w. That amount of thermal mass should be able to take well more than 1000w for a few seconds while accelerating. Could you carefully increase the current watching the temps (possibly with some statorade) until you're satisfied, or too nervous to go any higher?
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by cwah » Jun 18 2018 8:15am

I'm saying that because with the same motor but with the Kelly controller (7230s), the motor has way way more torque on initial acceleration.

However once it's up to some speed (10-15mph), then the phaserunner does much better and accelerate decently.

I know my Kelly controller is way bigger, however i'm surprised initial acceleration is so bad until it reaches some speed.

Alan what's your 2wd setup? I can either do that or get a bigger motor/controller combo
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Alan B » Jul 04 2018 7:43am

You can find details on my 2wd setup in the Bonanza thread linked in my sig, toward the end of the thread. Rear is 9C, front is BMC, both are higher voltage windings. The PhaseRunner works best with higher voltage/lower current motors as it is only 6 FETs. Motors that need more current (speed winds) will not perform as well with this controller, at low speed it will hit the motor current limit. Two of these controllers are still smaller than most 12 FET controllers! :)

I recall looking at the Leaf and deciding it needed too much current for the PhaseRunner.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by evolutiongts » Jul 04 2018 8:09pm

Hey Alan,

My first name is also Alan. I am also running 2WD as well.

The bike use to run a phase runner for the front hub but now I’ve swapped it out for a ASI BAC2000 and a ASI BAC4000 for the rear.

ASI 2000 does 4KW and the ASI 4000 does 16KW.

Running a 750W front and MXUS 3K Turbo rear hub.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Alan B » Jul 04 2018 11:51pm

Looks like a powerful setup. What is the all up weight?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by zro-1 » Jul 05 2018 11:55pm

I was just thinking that it would be cool if Grin could share an "ideal" voltage/wattage for the phaserunner. Maybe it would have to be tuned to motor rpm/v or something, but it would still be nice to have for reference.
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Alan B » Jul 06 2018 12:58am

You can figure it out easily enough. It depends on how you cool it. That sets the current limit. The voltage limit is specified. That's the ideal operating point if you want max power.

Justin talked about this in the thread on April 7, 2018, and he covers it in the manual as well.

In 2016 there were some experiments that indicated the PhaseRunner could handle 50-70 amps depending on the heatsink (and ambient temperatures).

For long life some reasonable margins should be applied to those values.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by evolutiongts » Jul 07 2018 10:30am

Alan B wrote:
Jul 04 2018 11:51pm
Looks like a powerful setup. What is the all up weight?
Weight is about 100-110lbs but you dont feel the weight when you are riding.

Front hub weighs 10lbs and Rear hub weights 20lbs. About the same weight as one QS 205 motor but better weight distribution.
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viewtopic.php?f=6&t=93079

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MUXUS 3K Turbo
Sabvoton 72V150A
Moto Wheels all around
Front Suspension Kit
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=83423

Giant Trance 4 Full Suspension
Cyclone 3000W
74V 3000W
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Jebu » Jul 11 2018 5:58am

Hello friends.

I'm thinking about buy a new geared motor for a 700c bike to go to the work every day.
I have a phaserunner from an old project, a 48v 21A battery and a CA3.
Which is my best option and easy to configure motor?

Thanks

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by cwah » Jul 27 2018 11:11am

the latest version of phaserunner doesn't work with my mac:
http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/phaserunner.html

"PhaseRunnerSuite cannot be opened because of a problem."

model: MacBook (Retina, 12-inch, 2017)

thanks
Help me find my stolen electric brompton: http://bit.ly/1a0vbBC and Bosch Sinus B3 http://bit.ly/1eV0WQz

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Tom on 101 » Jul 30 2018 5:20pm

cwah wrote:
Jul 27 2018 11:11am
the latest version of phaserunner doesn't work with my mac:
http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/phaserunner.html

"PhaseRunnerSuite cannot be opened because of a problem."

model: MacBook (Retina, 12-inch, 2017)

thanks
Same here, same computer and same error message.

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