Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

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Chopcat   1 mW

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Chopcat » Jul 15 2019 2:02am

Justin, the mac os link isn’t working. I will give it a try if you can mend it.

Cheers
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by airgee » Jul 18 2019 6:09pm

I just started playing with this new feature on my Mundo + Crystalite 3540 (UFO) front motor.
0.8 Nm (0.78 Amps) looks ok on this motor.

The effect seemed very good and welcome for cruising at low speed on sidewalks but I tested it on a few tens of meters only. More on that later...

Warning : if you go a bit too far with this setting, you will end up with a wheel at max RPM in short order. Be sure your bike support is strong enough to not let the wheel touch the ground ! And prepare to switch off the battery or better, have a hand on your ebrake :)

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Re: Updated V1.1 Phaserunner software to test, with Virtual Electronic Freewheeling

Post by andrebandre » Jul 18 2019 8:14pm

justin_le wrote:
Jul 04 2019 6:57am
Hey everyone, we're getting very close to having a V1.1 release of the Phaserunner software suite ready to release.

First and foremost is something that I've alluded to on our GMAC product page which we're calling virtual electronic freewheeling.

This causes the Phaserunner controller to inject a small amount of phase current through the motor winding even when the throttle is off. As soon as the motor stops turning (based on the stall timeout) then the current drops to zero properly so you don't have to worry about it wasting power when the bike is parked.

That's our main intention of the feature, but there is another use with mid-drive or geared motor setups in order to keep the motor always engaged with the drivetrain. That way there is no windup delay and jarring kick once the motor spins and catches up with the clutch, which has been the source of many premature mechanical features.

Not sure if "msec" means miliseconds regarding the stall timeout.
I would like to have about 15 seconds of 1.0 Amps mantained after i release the throttle before the current drops to zero.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by airgee » Jul 19 2019 2:00pm

Ok, I think I've found something annoying :

It seems that the freewheeling feature can be in two modes : active and "sleep".
At boot it's in sleep mode.
As soon as the stall timeout pass, it falls in sleep mode.
To switch from sleep to active, it seems a throttle signal is mandatory. The simple fact that the wheel is spinning above the stall timeout isn't sufficient.
Once it's active, a throttle signal isn't necessary anymore : it will continue to work until a stall is detected.

As is, the freewheeling feature is just for enjoying more natural downhills, but cannot really be used for cycling "without" assistance.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Marc S. » Jul 19 2019 5:07pm

Chopcat wrote:
Jul 15 2019 2:02am
Justin, the mac os link isn’t working. I will give it a try if you can mend it.
The new v1.1 beta versions for macOS and Win are now available from the Phaserunner info page: https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/phas ... ware-suite
(just found them, might play with them tomorrow)

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by theblindsaint » Aug 06 2019 10:52am

Hi, I just got a baserunner installed on my bike, and have a few questions about how to set up it up optimally.
My bike set up is a 52 v battery running a 1kw DD drive.

How do I determine what the max flux amps should be?
Some settings in the controller software overlap with the CA3, which one will take priority?
Finally, when I start up the motor while on the bike, there is about a one to two seconds where the motor feels very weak before revving up, is that normal?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by airgee » Aug 06 2019 4:20pm

Max amps pumped from the battery ("battery amps") should be set according the most restrictive of :
- your battery's specs (something like "continuous discharge") ;
- you controller's specs (baserunner = 30A continuous).

Max amps going from the controller to the motor ("phase amps") should be set according to the most restrictive specification of :
- your motor (ex : Grin advise not to use more than 35-40A with the small Bafang G31x in standard winding)
- the controller (ex : baserunner is said to be good for 30-35A phase without going into thermal rollback mode)
- the connector used between motor and controller (ex : ~60A with Andersons, 30-40A for HiGo Z910)
- the wiring specs (usually the least restrictive, at least for ebikes still looking more or less like bikes ... )

> Some settings in the controller software overlap with the CA3, which one will take priority?
The most restrictive. But there's only a few of them.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by endrew » Aug 08 2019 7:29am

I tried enabling the virtual freewheel with a mid drive motor, but on the stand I see no effect. When I let go of the throttle, the motor just stops, no matter the current I set. Any suggestions?

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justin_le   10 MW

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by justin_le » Aug 14 2019 11:24am

airgee wrote:
Aug 06 2019 4:20pm
Max amps going from the controller to the motor ("phase amps") should be set according to the most restrictive specification of :
- the controller (ex : baserunner is said to be good for 30-35A phase without going into thermal rollback mode)
Correct with everything but on this one point there's no harm at all in allowing the controller itself to go into thermal rollback and limit its max phase current on its own. So even though the continuous phase current of the baserunner will be limited to 30-35A depending on air flow, in almost all cases we'd suggest leaving the limit setting at the maximum 55A so that you have the full torque available for accelerating or for short steep hills.

The main case we've really seen where it needs to be reduced on the baserunner is to avoid stripping the gears inside smaller geared hub motors. For that if you want to play it safe we recommend looking at the rated maximum motor torque from the manufacturer, and then adjust the max phase amps until the associated Nm torque number matches. The guy inquiring has a DD hub so this wouldn't come into play.

In addition to the considerations given by Airgee on the connector and cable gauge, there is also one other consideration that can come into play which is the spinout torque on the dropouts. If you don't have a well installed torque arm then you might want to reduce the phase current to keep axle spinout risks at bay. Even with steel dropouts you can spin a 12mm axle with 40-50Nm of torque, see
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14195&start=100#p220366
and for similar tests with motors that used round axles and a tabbed washer:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=93562&start=100#p1374044

If you are using a small geared motor with a tabbed washer in an aluminum fork, then the spinout happens a little over 40 Nm and to have some margin you'd probably want to set a max phase current to limit the motor to like 25 Nm.
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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justin_le   10 MW

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Version 1.1 Beta 6 software release

Post by justin_le » Aug 14 2019 12:13pm

Hey everyone, there is a newer V1.1 beta software that is getting very close to having all desired features of the V1.1 release code and I'd love to have some people testing it out too. We have the windows build available here
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Phaserun ... 0b6.7z.exe
MacOS will be ready very soon too, and we're working hard to have an Android port sorted not long after that.
[EDIT: Now available here:
https://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Phaseru ... b6.dmg.zip ]

Here are 3 the major updates

1) Ability to Fetch Default Profiles for Multiple Motors. There have been a few suggestions that we should compile nicely tuned XML files for a number of motor types but we never got organized in a system for that so in this release we've built it right into the software itself. Click the "Import Defaults" button.
PR Import Defaults.jpg
PR Import Defaults.jpg (93.59 KiB) Viewed 521 times
This brings up a window that lets you pick a setup of parameter defaults based on a motor manufacturer and model. There's a button to download these default parameter files from our webs server where you can pick and choose the ones that interest you
PR Defaults Download List.jpg
PR Defaults Download List.jpg (30.75 KiB) Viewed 521 times
And after you've done that, then they stay in a local folder in the install directory of the software and can be selected from the dropdown menu.
PR Dropdown Choice.jpg
PR Dropdown Choice.jpg (25.12 KiB) Viewed 521 times
Then it pre-populates all the fields with values that are appropriate for the motor so that in theory you could just run the setup trouble free, no need for autotune or anything. This default parameters list is a work in progress through, so we'll continue to tweak and refine the settings as we gain more insight and experience, and we can also include user submitted parameter settings for all kinds of other motors and setups.

2) Better Hall Mapping and Autotune Process We've done a lot of changes to give better visibility in what's going on with the hall mapping during the spinning autotune process and have fixed a number of situations that used to simply report 'hall error' without being more specific. Now it actually displays the map of what hall state is present at each rotor position during the spin test, and then you can see this in the dashboard view too.
PR Hall State Highlight.jpg
PR Hall State Highlight.jpg (85.39 KiB) Viewed 521 times

It will now also work fine with 60 degree hall timing too. You can see then that the hall states 000 and 111 are both assigned to rotor positions rather than being blank.

3) Updated Variable Names and Address Sorting

We've also changed the names on a number of the parameters so that they are more sensibly grouped in the parameter listing, and have also added a separate "sort by address" option when viewing parameters which can speed up finding specific settings
PR Address Sort.jpg
PR Address Sort.jpg (84.36 KiB) Viewed 521 times
Previously too on the Dev Screen all the communication between the controller and software was being shown in HEX format, while now we have it showing all the read data in parsed into english instead and then you can choose the hex view if you want.
PR Dev Screen.jpg
PR Dev Screen.jpg (34.97 KiB) Viewed 521 times
It also gives an option to highlight and display all of the unsaved variables. This can be especially handy when you are loading on a new settings file over an existing phaserunner/baserunner since you can see a list of exactly what parameters are going to be changed if you save the settings.

Anyways we're hoping that these improvements go a long way to helping with the usability of the phaserunner/baserunner controller line and will appreciate any feedback.
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by mrbill » Aug 14 2019 12:51pm

Hey Justin:

I think it's great that you and your team have been improving the Phaserunner Software Suite.

Some time ago I think I asked if the Suite could be used to program some of the other ASI controllers, such as the BAC2000 (non-bluetooth) as sold by Grin a few years ago. At the time you (or Robby) thought it could not be used to program ASI's other controllers. I think I may have tried unsuccessfully to do so. I was able to get BACDoor to do what I wanted, so I didn't pursue the matter further.

But, because you've added some interesting functionality to the latest Suite that I would be interested in trying, I'll ask again...

Can one program one of ASI's other controllers (such as the BAC2000) with the latest version of the Phaserunner Software Suite?

Thanks.
Bill Bushnell
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justin_le   10 MW

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by justin_le » Aug 14 2019 2:11pm

mrbill wrote:
Aug 14 2019 12:51pm
Can one program one of ASI's other controllers (such as the BAC2000) with the latest version of the Phaserunner Software Suite?
Out of the box, no. But if you already have bacdoor installed then in principle it is possible to update the firmware on your BAC2000 to have the same customized firmware we have on the Phaserunner/Baserunner devices, and then the suite would connect to it OK. Though it might also clamp some settings (like the maximum phase amps) more than necessary. We have it automatically detecting if it's a Phaserunner or Baserunner connected and scaling the limits for max voltage and currents accordingly, but haven't vetted that functionality with higher amperage devices.

If you're interested to try this then follow up via email.
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Aerialpixels » Aug 16 2019 12:33pm

Tested the freewheel option on the beta software. Set to 2.0 amps this feature when combined with BBSHD mid drive does a phenomenal job at keeping chain tension for smooth acceleration both from a stop and coasting. When coming to a stop it instantly senses the stall current and disengages. Awesome feature that significantly improved drivability.
3amp was too much... When braking I could tell it was working against me.
Also on a Mac. This version works well!

Thank Justin. Amazing

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by theblindsaint » Aug 18 2019 7:28pm

I've tried changing the field weakening current, but am not seeing any increase to either top no load speed or no-load draw (aounrd 1 A even at >50%). I have a baserunner, and was wondering why it seems like the FOC setting isn;t registering?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by endrew » Aug 20 2019 5:47am

I can't get the virtual freewheel function to work. The motor doesn't even make the humming noise of just before starting to spin.

Any help guys? What am I missing? Is it a software update I'm missing? maybe special parameter permissions?

Attached id the config file and a video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CWmhBLO-vU
Attachments
virtual free wheel 3a.xml
(30.96 KiB) Downloaded 7 times

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by sh33p » Aug 23 2019 11:49pm

How well does the Phaserunner work with a Mac 10T? I have one, which stopped working after about 200km of light use. Seems like the phase wires are good, but the halls are all shot.

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Re: Updated V1.1 Phaserunner software to test, with Virtual Electronic Freewheeling

Post by ferret » Aug 24 2019 11:24am

justin_le wrote:
Jul 04 2019 6:57am

There have been a number of tweaks on the back-end that we are hoping will fix the random communication errors or other glitches that some people would experience during the autotune process, and we've also updated the error dialogs when they do show up to be much more informative. So if you are someone who has a setup that has been fussy with the V1.05 software we'd be very interested to know if all the issues go away with the 1.1 beta release above.

In addition to that, we've also changed some things around on the layout and added a few features. First and foremost is something that I've alluded to on our GMAC product page which we're calling virtual electronic freewheeling.

This causes the Phaserunner controller to inject a small amount of phase current through the motor winding even when the throttle is off. As soon as the motor stops turning (based on the stall timeout) then the current drops to zero properly so you don't have to worry about it wasting power when the bike is parked.

Image

Tried the freewheel feature in the beta software. Works great so far. I did notice that the Motor Stall Timeout field is labeled in msec, but it isn't milliseconds (set to 250, I could hear the hum for longer than one second when testing).

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by ferret » Aug 26 2019 1:35am

Went on an extended ride yesterday and discovered a small issue with the electric freewheel feature.
While standing stationary, if the bike rolls backwards then the electric freewheel activates. I guess it is triggered by any movement in the motor regardless of direction. I think it should only activate by forward motion.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by pomah » Sep 01 2019 3:32pm

sh33p wrote:
Aug 23 2019 11:49pm
How well does the Phaserunner work with a Mac 10T? I have one, which stopped working after about 200km of light use. Seems like the phase wires are good, but the halls are all shot.
I have been running one for over 3 years without halls connected no issues, you do need to "kick start" it thou.

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