Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

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amberwolf   100 GW

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by amberwolf » Dec 10 2019 10:19pm

Daveades wrote:
Dec 10 2019 6:31pm
I have an Ezee rear hub,
<snip>
In October the my original motor was replaced with a new Ezee
<snip>
What I am trying to do is get the motor to spin freely when the assist cuts out at about 50 kmh on the downhill sprints. I don't need the motor to sustain the speed but I need it to not the drag that is holding me back.
The Ezee is a geared hub with an internal freewheeling clutch, so when the motor is not being powered, it does not drag the wheel.

If it *is* dragging the wheel anyway, then the clutch is siezed, and would need to be serviced or replaced.

Flip the bike upside down, wheel off ground, and hand-spin the tire in the direction of normal travel. It should freely spin, not quite as freely as a regular bike wheel, but close.

Now hand-spin the tire the other way, backwards. It should have a fair bit of drag, because now it's spinning the motor inside, thru the clutch and the planetary gears.

If those are not the behaviors you see, something is wrong inside the motor.


I can't help with the Field Weakening stuff; don't know about it.

THe freewheeling option in the PR should be ablet to feed just enough current to negate the drag of whatever motor you use, but you don't need it with a motor like the Ezee that is already freewheeling internally.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Daveades » Dec 12 2019 3:26pm

Thanks, I know this is a geared hub with a clutch. This isn't a mechanical issue.

The issue is its RPM maxes out at 49ish kmh or it did. Putting the Amax from 23A to 30A helped. I lowered it 23A to help with my voltage sag issue.

Now I take the Satiator to work and charge at work so my resting voltage stays above 50v during the ride. By about 20 km I'm pulling it down to 48v 49v from 58.6v at about 44 kmh and can't get it to spin faster. I will need a higher voltage battery.

I ran it today with 33.3 max amps in the PR setting and 3A field weakening and 4x assist. At 54ish volts it spun up to 52 kmh on the flats and 55 kmh going down the IMB. Once it drops below 53v while riding the hub won't let me spin it up past 50 kmh. I'll try 6A field weakening tomorrow.

Ultimately I'm likely looking at a different motor and battery but still has to be able to climb. I did go up the IWMB yesterday at 45 kmh after charging at work. :mrgreen:

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First Android Release

Post by justin_le » Dec 16 2019 3:00pm

justin_le wrote:
Aug 14 2019 12:13pm
and we're working hard to have an Android port sorted not long after that.
And so we have it! This is our first public release of a phone app and it's currently available on the Google Play store here
https://play.google.com/store/apps/deta ... twaresuite
PRSuite.jpg
PRSuite.jpg (45.46 KiB) Viewed 2999 times
This works with our standard USB->TTL cables as long as you a USB On-The-Go adapter cable which goes from USB A to the mini or USB C standard. These are readily available on amazon and elsewhere:
https://www.amazon.com/Sanoxy-Micro-Rig ... 11&sr=8-33
https://www.amazon.com/Adapter-CableCre ... 190&sr=8-9
PR Android Demo.jpg
PR Android Demo.jpg (168.64 KiB) Viewed 2999 times
Our plan for later in 2020 is to support a bluetooth connection with the app and have a tiny TRRS terminated bluetooth adapter that would just plug into the communication port of the Baserunner or Phaserunner and then there will be a wireless option. But at least we can get a head start since most people already have the USB cable and now can do the tunings and settings with a phone instead of rolling the bike to a computer.
PR App Screen.jpg
PR App Screen.jpg (81.7 KiB) Viewed 2999 times
We've got most of the functionality of the desktop app available with the exception that it doesn't have the default profile loading, and the dashboard view doesn't have a graphing/logging mode yet. Those are both being worked on for subsequent updates . The key things like setting parameters, running autotune etc. are present and we're interested to hear how this works out for people and if they find the interface intuitive enough. So let us know! And report any bugs too.
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by 1N4001 » Dec 17 2019 3:00am

This is awesome, Justin! Great for making adjustments on the go, when you don't happen to have your laptop with you :)

I do wonder, if you already have OTG and you're planning Bluetooth, wouldn't it be possible to use a smartphone app not only for configuration, but also as a dashboard? This way you could have simple throttle-only setups without a CA3, or in addition to a CA3. Many people have their smartphones attached to their bikes already, so this would make a great addition.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by justin_le » Dec 18 2019 4:02pm

1N4001 wrote:
Dec 17 2019 3:00am
I do wonder, if you already have OTG and you're planning Bluetooth, wouldn't it be possible to use a smartphone app not only for configuration, but also as a dashboard?
Yeah, not just possible but also part of the plan :-) However for successful development it's best to focus on one thing at a time. First order of action is to get the setup and tuning utility fully functional since that's the most critical bit for usability, and then you can look forward to more and more features as time goes on.
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by kevinscargobike » Dec 18 2019 4:55pm

justin_le wrote:
Dec 18 2019 4:02pm
Yeah, not just possible but also part of the plan :-)
Is an iPhone app part of the long term plan?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by davideserin » Dec 27 2019 4:06am

kevinscargobike wrote:
Dec 18 2019 4:55pm
justin_le wrote:
Dec 18 2019 4:02pm
Yeah, not just possible but also part of the plan :-)
Is an iPhone app part of the long term plan?
This would rock my world :)

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by tomjasz » Dec 28 2019 2:42pm

davideserin wrote:
Dec 27 2019 4:06am


This would rock my world :)
YES!!!! and Grinspector in osX!
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by hias9 » Jan 07 2020 10:11pm

I have compared the noise of a Bafang G310 powered by an ASI BAC500 against a sinewave KT controller.

The result was that both subjective and measured noise level was clearly lower with the KT controller.
Measured (with an iPad, so don‘t take the values too serious) from about 70cm away at 200rpm: ASI 63dB, KT 56dB.

The reason is most likely that the ASI uses a PWM frequency of 13kHz which causes a loud (and not comfortable) noise. The 16kHz PWM frequency of the KT causes only a barely hearable sound. (16kHz is less loud for human ear and also less dB)

Besides of this point, I would definitely prefer the ASI controller.

Are there any compact FOC controllers available which allow a higher PWM frequency?
I tried to increase PWM frequency on the ASI, but since that I cannot connect to it any more (LED flashing 4 times)

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by grindz145 » Jan 21 2020 9:01am

The app looks awesome!

I was thinking, as an interim solution would it be possible to get the raw BT-> UART feed through a display with an integrated Bluetooth radio, like the eggrider?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by petrun » Jan 28 2020 6:08am

Hi, anyone use the phaserunner with a bafang fat motor , G060? I have the 750w rear motor, I did the autotune but when I apply throttle the motor its juddering , feels like the power it's pulsating to the motor. I have the cycle analyst v3 for a few years and just updated to last version now, maybe some settings are affecting the throttle behaviour?
Justin suggest to try the settings for GMAC except KV and poles me, I will try that too when I get home

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by marci » Mar 24 2020 3:40pm

Dear friends,

has anyone already had experience with the conversion of a standard Phaserunner wiring to L1019 Connector and maybe a schematic wiring diagram? (Phaserunner vs Phaserunner_L10)
Today I get my new GMAC 10T Motor with the L1019 Connector for my Surly Ogre Travelbike and now I´am thinking about best practice for a wiring harness of my old Phaserunner (with MT connector) and my CA3 (with speedsensor)

The new GMAC Hub Motor has speed and temp sensor included (speed 6 magnets I read), so i guess, it is a good Idea to think about a smooth wiring diagram, but currently I have no glue how to implement this :-(

I think the best way is, to solder the L1019 Connector to my old phaserunner and bypass the JST Connector (oki, the embedded MT60 Connector is maybe not a good Idea to soldering) and maybe passtrough Signal for Temp and speed directly to CA3?

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Re: First Android Release

Post by Dumsterdave » Apr 15 2020 3:46am

justin_le wrote:
Dec 16 2019 3:00pm

And so we have it! This is our first public release of a phone app and it's currently available on the Google Play store here
the app seems like a great idea, but I'm having problems with it. it connects and disconnects every 1 or 2 seconds I've tried it with 2 programming cables and got the same results.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by justin_le » Jun 03 2020 3:02am

Dumsterdave wrote:
Apr 15 2020 3:46am


the app seems like a great idea, but I'm having problems with it. it connects and disconnects every 1 or 2 seconds I've tried it with 2 programming cables and got the same results.
Hey Dave, can you tell us if you are using a phone with a micro-usb plug on it or USB-C? And give us some info on the phone model? We've got a few staff phones here that have also had the same issue show up and will soon be doing some test builds to try and fix this.
Previously competed in the Suntrip race on a back to back tandem solar powered row/cycle trike. 550 watt solar roof, dual Grin All Axle hub motors, dual Phaserunner controllers, 12 LiGo batteries, and a whole wack of gear.

Now back in Vancouver learning to be a dad with my Big Dummy Frame (yes This One, thanks ES!) with GMAC 10T rear hub motor, Phaserunner controller, and 52V 19Ah EM3EV pack
My website: http://www.ebikes.ca
Please contact via email, info@ebikes.ca, rather than PMs, which are disabled

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Dumsterdave » Jun 03 2020 3:30pm

justin_le wrote:
Jun 03 2020 3:02am
Dumsterdave wrote:
Apr 15 2020 3:46am


the app seems like a great idea, but I'm having problems with it. it connects and disconnects every 1 or 2 seconds I've tried it with 2 programming cables and got the same results.
Hey Dave, can you tell us if you are using a phone with a micro-usb plug on it or USB-C? And give us some info on the phone model? We've got a few staff phones here that have also had the same issue show up and will soon be doing some test builds to try and fix this.
it's a Xiaomi note 7 pro with usb-c

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by chilau2000 » Jun 25 2020 5:58pm

Hi

I'm looking at purchasing a Phaserunner to upgrade my Dualtron controller.

Is there anyway of only having throttle active whilst the scooter is moving ie. Push to start

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by amberwolf » Jun 25 2020 11:17pm

chilau2000 wrote:
Jun 25 2020 5:58pm
Is there anyway of only having throttle active whilst the scooter is moving ie. Push to start
I don't know if that's possible in the PR itself, but the Cycle Analyst v3 has this feature, in the Throttle and PAS menu screens, by using a minimum start speed. So if you need a power meter or speedometer / odometer / etc anyway, you could use the CAv3 for that and get the throttle stuff as a bonus.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by chilau2000 » Jun 26 2020 3:14pm

amberwolf wrote:
Jun 25 2020 11:17pm
chilau2000 wrote:
Jun 25 2020 5:58pm
Is there anyway of only having throttle active whilst the scooter is moving ie. Push to start
I don't know if that's possible in the PR itself, but the Cycle Analyst v3 has this feature, in the Throttle and PAS menu screens, by using a minimum start speed. So if you need a power meter or speedometer / odometer / etc anyway, you could use the CAv3 for that and get the throttle stuff as a bonus.
Thanks will look into the CAV3

Also my hub motor is sensorless, apart from better startup from stationary will there be any other benefits from running a sensored motor ?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by amberwolf » Jun 27 2020 4:23am

Not really. With a good FOC controller, it knows the motor position once it's moving without any sensors just fine.

The fact that there's less to go wrong in sensorless is actually the most important difference between the two for most people.

But you can use the PR in sensored-start / sensorless-run mode, so if you do have sensors in the motor they will help you startup, then be ignored afterward. This is the best mode as long as it falls back to full sensorless mode if a sensor stops working (that, I don't know).

But since you would have to add sensors, I'd just stick with sensorless mode.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by NCC1941 » Jun 27 2020 11:03am

amberwolf wrote:
Jun 27 2020 4:23am
But you can use the PR in sensored-start / sensorless-run mode, so if you do have sensors in the motor they will help you startup, then be ignored afterward. This is the best mode as long as it falls back to full sensorless mode if a sensor stops working (that, I don't know).
Just confirming, the Phaserunner can be set to fall back to full sensorless mode in the event of a hall sensor fault. That behavior is toggled on/off via a checkbox in the Phaserunner programming suite, and it seems to default to 'on'.
"The Kitchen Sink" - 2016 Surly ECR 29", 2WD Grin All-Axle + 9C RH212, 2x Phaserunner, 52v50Ah EM3ev (Rolling WIP)
"Novara Barrow eBike" - 2016 Novara Barrow Bike, Luna BBS02, 52v28Ah EM3ev (Retired)

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by chilau2000 » Jun 27 2020 4:18pm

amberwolf wrote:
Jun 27 2020 4:23am
Not really. With a good FOC controller, it knows the motor position once it's moving without any sensors just fine.

The fact that there's less to go wrong in sensorless is actually the most important difference between the two for most people.

But you can use the PR in sensored-start / sensorless-run mode, so if you do have sensors in the motor they will help you startup, then be ignored afterward. This is the best mode as long as it falls back to full sensorless mode if a sensor stops working (that, I don't know).

But since you would have to add sensors, I'd just stick with sensorless mode.
Cool thanks for the info.
I will using kick off before enabling throttle so I won't need starting from a standstill.
I like it as a safety feature, have knocked the throttle on a few of my ebikes which didn't have this feature.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by TheSiege » Jun 28 2020 1:08pm

So what would work best for me? I have a ZEV S6000L. Its older, 2013. Uses first gen Volt cells. 21s charged to 84v cutoff at 70v. It powers a 5000w brushless hub motor. And its street legal so it has all the other stuff for 12v. Headlights, turn signals etc.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by amberwolf » Jun 28 2020 1:55pm

If you look at the specs for this controller, it won't be able to provide the 5000w you say your system is spec'd for.
https://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/phaserunner.html
Presumably you are looking for an upgrade from the 5000w you already say you have, so using a controller rated for even less isn't helpful.


Rather than posting the same thing in multiple threads, you should use your project thread for this scooter (make one if you don't have one) and put all your project questions in that thread. It will help people help you better.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Merlin » Jul 21 2020 3:04pm

whats the "real" max eRPM for a phaserunner?

anyone had tried running it with a CYC x1 Pro Motor?
the stock controllers are hell of crap ;(

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

Post by Berglundsimon » Oct 26 2020 4:52pm

Merlin wrote:
Jul 21 2020 3:04pm
whats the "real" max eRPM for a phaserunner?

anyone had tried running it with a CYC x1 Pro Motor?
the stock controllers are hell of crap ;(
Also interested to know if the pr will work. Cant stand my stock controller.

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