Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited run

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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Alan B » Jul 30 2016 11:41pm

cycborg wrote:
Alan B wrote:Are folks using the PhaseRunner successfully with BMC geared hubmotors? A search didn't turn up any hits on that.

Thanks!
I used it with a MAC for a while before switching to a 9c, so that might be relevant. Search my posts in this thread from maybe the Aug-Sept 2015 time frame. Anything in particular you wanted to know?
Thanks for the response. I will take a look. Just wondering if it worked ok, haven't seen much discussion regarding the Mac/BMC operation. Some controllers have problems with these motors for some reason. I'm not quite wired up to find out. I may want to use two of these on my AWD setup. Anyone done that? My setup is 9C DD rear and BMC front. I've got a bit of work to do on the front forks before I'll be to that point.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Marin » Jul 31 2016 4:50pm

MrDude_1 wrote:
Until you properly setup the controller for the motor, direction doesn't matter.

I went back to swapping phase wires and the last one produced a nice spin in the right direction. Still can't get through auto tune, same motor not detected message.

Time to go to my local grin dealer/mechanic, I know he just set up a phase runner for a friend last week. Lucky to have a place to take it.
Marin ex-rental hybrid with 48v bionx...sold
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Lunacycle with l/r mid drive coming soon
Kona Caldera with QS 30H (maybe), and phase runner
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Alan B » Jul 31 2016 10:16pm

The motor tuning uses some of the settings in the sensorless starting section, the pole count and possibly Kv, make sure those values are good, and that there is enough time and current in the sensorless settings to actually move your motor, and enough battery power, etc. It would report no motor if it went through the process of trying to move it and didn't sense any changes, like the current was too low or the time was too short.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Jason3 » Aug 01 2016 12:10am

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Last edited by Jason3 on Aug 09 2016 5:35pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Marc S. » Aug 01 2016 10:32am

My Phaserunner changed its beat.

Its blinking in a 6x and 7x rhythum, now. :(

What annoyes me a bit, apart from the constantly blinking Phaserunner, is that Grin Tech didn't provide usefull answers (if any) to my questions here in the thread, or send by email.
Justin never answered to the email I send him two weeks ago.

Whats going on with you guys?

I never experianced this lackluster customer support from Grin Tech befor and frankly, wouldn't have bought the Phaserunner (for all its awesomeness) if I had.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Marin » Aug 01 2016 8:50pm

After reading your post I checked mine and it's blinking 6"s and 7's too.

I'll be bringing it to my guy locally here on Thursday to get set up, I know it's a great controller as I just rode a buddies bike that got set up last week and it's pretty sweet.

pretty clearly labeled as not for novices, take me down a peg or two,
Marin ex-rental hybrid with 48v bionx...sold
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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Alan B » Aug 01 2016 11:37pm

If you plug (the laptop) in can you get more info about the faults?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Marc S. » Aug 02 2016 8:24am

Alan B wrote:If you plug (the laptop) in can you get more info about the faults?
Nope.
I still haven't installed it in a trike and when occasionally running tests with some hub motors, the Phaserunner is connected to PhaseWarmUp on my Mac.
The PhaseWarmUp software doesn't report any persistent faults.

The only 'usefull' answer by email from Grin Tech about the blinking so far was:
'There are some LED patterns that represent "warnings" that can be ignored. The bac500 manual doesn't necessarily apply to the PhaseRunner unfortunately in this circumstance.'

No explanation what error code the blinking might actually represent, no reply to my question how to get rid of it, or an answer to my question (with attached xml setup file) if the temporary bricking of the Phaserunner (when PhaseWarmUp crashed while writing to the Phaserunner) did anything wrong to it.

Apart from being mildly annoyed about the whole thing, I'm actually more worried something serious happend at Grin that demands their full attention.
I rather like to hear they sat stoned on a nice beach and chilled out for a while...

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Marin » Aug 09 2016 10:40am

got my bike back with controller working and able to test ride now, still some wire shortening to do. throttle is nice and smooth, regen is very strong but no variable yet, and led's are still blinking, I noticed on buddies bike led is blinking too,

I didn't get a great answer as to why autotune didn't work for me on my mac setup but did for him on his pc setup
Marin ex-rental hybrid with 48v bionx...sold
Specialized hardrock with magic pie 4-5
Lunacycle with l/r mid drive coming soon
Kona Caldera with QS 30H (maybe), and phase runner
Giant Yukon bbs02
Kona Abra Cadabra bbshd
Wildfire fat bike bbshd

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by TRRRR » Aug 09 2016 11:05pm

Hello, my phase runner is cutting out when I go over bumps in the road with a fault 9, instantaneous phase over current error.

Any advice on what to try with this one?

I am using an eZee fast winding hub motor, sensorless. CA3 with power control throttle and a power limit around 700W.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by amberwolf » Aug 10 2016 1:10am

Same things to check for any other problem that happens on bumps/vibrations:

connectors

contacts

crimps

wires

insulation

Something is loose somewhere, or shorting somewhere.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by cycborg » Aug 10 2016 7:12am

TRRRR wrote:Hello, my phase runner is cutting out when I go over bumps in the road with a fault 9, instantaneous phase over current error.

Any advice on what to try with this one?

I am using an eZee fast winding hub motor, sensorless. CA3 with power control throttle and a power limit around 700W.
This was happening to me when I started using the PR with my MAC (I've since switched to a 9c). My hypothesis is that this and other problems were related to the freewheeling clutch suddenly engaging with a spinning wheel, causing a torque and current spike. I eliminated these problems by using a very small value for Ki. See this post for details.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Alan B » Aug 17 2016 12:43am

Setting up a PhaseRunner (BAC800) with a BMC V4TT with double phase wires. It is supposed to be well matched Kv wise to a 9C 6x10.

AutoTune moves, generates tones, then throws errors about a phase not connected, I did get it to run partially once and got Rs 67, Ls 175 by swapping motor leads, and it was testing in reverse, so not spinning 26" wheel with thorn proof tube and tire (fairly heavy). Doesn't want to repeat that for some reason. The phase it complains about is not consistent.

Motor runs fine on throttle, unloaded. Spins the correct direction with the phase colors matched. More than a touch of throttle and it accelerates hard to full speed as expected. Perhaps tomorrow I can dig out the tach and get a good Kv.

It also errors out on the hall sensors, black and red wires are correct, a couple of the sensor wires are swapped. So unless BMC uses a different hall sensor color code they should be ok.

Running a 52V pack for testing, trying various scenarios.

Using 80 pole pairs, 6 rpm/volt, around 56 volts of battery.

Which of the parameters affect the auto-tune? Not sure which of the many would be worth varying.

Using the new Ebikes.ca software, only used Bacdoor 1.4 to load the new xml file. This is an early BAC800 from Grin, probably a very early unit. But the calibration of the BattV didn't seem to change.

Do I need to go back and fiddle with the Bacdoor software, or is using the new suite supposed to be sufficient?

Thanks.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by iser » Aug 17 2016 6:50am

Using 80 pole pairs
R u sure?

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Alan B » Aug 17 2016 8:11am

16 times 5:1 gearing, recommended in Grin's table, pole pairs per wheel rotation.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Alan B » Aug 17 2016 12:56pm

Image

I dug out my tach and measured RPM and voltage and calculated Kv at 4.8, instead of the estimated 6, so I entered that into the PhaseRunner Suite 0.9.4 (the about menu dialog says 0.9.2 but the filename says 0.9.4) software and saved it to the controller. It still errored out on Autotune.

I fired up the Bacdoor 1.4 software again and looked around, didn't see anything that looked wrong or that I was willing to try changing, so I went back to the PhaseRunner Suite and tried Autotune many times. It tripped out in different places each time, complaining of no motor, disconnected phase wires, etc. But occasionally it would go further, and finally it went all the way through. I changed nothing, other than leaving the hall cable plugged in despite it throwing errors.

BMC 4TT motor in 26" wheel
80 pole pairs (16 pp times 5:1 gearing)
Rs 68
Ls 194
Kv 5.53
Halls OK, 16.996 degrees

I let it set everything else back to defaults, which is mostly what I was using anyway. It chose sensored start, sensorless run which is good.

The motor runs smoothly unloaded, aside from a clicking noise that appears to be motor related. This is a new BMC that I bought a couple years ago for this project and never used. It is mounted in a new steel fork which has not yet been mated to the frame.

So the software works very well, aside from tripping out on AutoTune most of the time.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by Alan B » Aug 17 2016 1:09pm

I should add that even though there are no error codes shown in the software, the controller is still blinking:

67 61

It would be good to have a chart showing what this means, perhaps we already have it, I'll see if I can find it.

Unloaded wheel at full speed drawing 1 battery amp at 56.4V

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by iser » Aug 17 2016 6:43pm

Alan B wrote:16 times 5:1 gearing, recommended in Grin's table, pole pairs per wheel rotation.
Try Pole pairs=16 & Gear rating=5.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by TRRRR » Aug 17 2016 7:04pm

Postby TRRRR » Tue Aug 09, 2016 11:05 pm
Hello, my phase runner is cutting out when I go over bumps in the road with a fault 9, instantaneous phase over current error.

Any advice on what to try with this one?

I am using an eZee fast winding hub motor, sensorless. CA3 with power control throttle and a power limit around 700W.
After advice from grin tech I adjusted the "PLL Bandwidth" parameter in the edit parameters list. Increased it from 0.38 to 0.9 and set current bandwidth to 3000 rads. This seems to solve the problems of shuddering and phase over current faults for me.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by amberwolf » Aug 18 2016 1:46am

iser wrote:
Alan B wrote:16 times 5:1 gearing, recommended in Grin's table, pole pairs per wheel rotation.
Try Pole pairs=16 & Gear rating=5.
He did; that gives 80 pole pairs. ;)
Alan B wrote:
80 pole pairs (16 pp times 5:1 gearing)

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by iser » Aug 20 2016 9:13pm

amberwolf wrote:
iser wrote:
Alan B wrote:16 times 5:1 gearing, recommended in Grin's table, pole pairs per wheel rotation.
Try Pole pairs=16 & Gear rating=5.
He did; that gives 80 pole pairs. ;)
Alan B wrote:
80 pole pairs (16 pp times 5:1 gearing)
I think this is a design-bug in upper computer software of phaserunner;
For controller OS, it does not care about Gear Rating, but the pole pairs is a important parameter;
Wrong pole pairs will leads to inaccurate Hall offset when use MDM tools to identify BLDC parameters.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by johnxsi » Aug 23 2016 2:51pm

Hi all, was after some help troubleshooting my Phaserunner + CAv3 on a MAC 8t geared hubmotor with a 14s Panasonic GA Sharkpack.

I commuted 30km yesterday with the controller working flawlessly (running from 500w to 1000w to bursts of 2000w). On the way home the controller started to play up; I could only feed it <500w before it would cut out and reset. However after limping home for a bit, it mysteriously came back to full working power at the end of the trip and I could rip up my hill using all 2000w.

Commuting in this morning I got 10kms of perfect behavior before everything died. Any application of throttle resulted in either a CA restart, or a small power surge and then no response (display still stayed powered and showed throttle graph correctly). Plugging throttle into Phaserunner had same behavior (1/4 turn then dead) Battery is brand new, fully charged & was displaying 56v.

I'll recheck my phase/halls tonight. But otherwise I assume I'm looking at a low voltage cutout somewhere? Any tips on where to start diagnosing?

(When this thing was working it was a blast to commute on :D Only having to run one wire to the controller formt he CA is fantastic.)

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by MrDude_1 » Aug 23 2016 3:30pm

johnxsi wrote:Hi all, was after some help troubleshooting my Phaserunner + CAv3 on a MAC 8t geared hubmotor with a 14s Panasonic GA Sharkpack.

I commuted 30km yesterday with the controller working flawlessly (running from 500w to 1000w to bursts of 2000w). On the way home the controller started to play up; I could only feed it <500w before it would cut out and reset. However after limping home for a bit, it mysteriously came back to full working power at the end of the trip and I could rip up my hill using all 2000w.

Commuting in this morning I got 10kms of perfect behavior before everything died. Any application of throttle resulted in either a CA restart, or a small power surge and then no response (display still stayed powered and showed throttle graph correctly). Plugging throttle into Phaserunner had same behavior (1/4 turn then dead) Battery is brand new, fully charged & was displaying 56v.

I'll recheck my phase/halls tonight. But otherwise I assume I'm looking at a low voltage cutout somewhere? Any tips on where to start diagnosing?

(When this thing was working it was a blast to commute on :D Only having to run one wire to the controller formt he CA is fantastic.)
sounds like you're having low voltage battery issues... I would double check everything is ok with your battery.
Warning:This post is being read via light, a substance known to the state of California to cause cancer.

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by johnxsi » Aug 25 2016 1:52am

Battery is good.

Plugged Phaserunner into PC and got "instantaneous phase over current" fault.

EDIT: Solved. Phase wires were rubbing against the cover, eventually shorting, which explains why I had the gradual degradation until dead. (Hopefully an easy fix.) Once I'm back up and running I'll be back to sing praises of the Phaserunner + CAv3 combo :D

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Re: Compact Field Oriented Controller, ASI + Grin, limited r

Post by rowbiker » Aug 25 2016 8:09am

Thanks for adding to the knowledge-base for this controller. My company just ordered two of these to experiment with, and these shared experiences make a tremendous contribution to making Justin's great products even more useful. In these times of non-existent customer support (present company excluded!), Grin and ES contributors are a brightly shining light in the darkness. We who are about to learn salute you!

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