Hub motor project!

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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby melodious » Wed Dec 31, 2014 12:56 am

No more thinking about gearing. No more thinking about belts & chains. No more thinking about trucks and brackets. No more motor bite. It doesn't get simpler than this :lol: .

I'd love to join in on this venture, but my plate is full :cry: . For those that are in on this, I hope it's everything it's meant to be!
Last edited by melodious on Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Hub motor project!60

Postby amberwolf » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:15 am

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:Are you saying the sound from breaking I hear in his clips is a indicator of a ferrous metal near the motor causing a emf reverb which would likely slow the motor and ...create that brake noise?

I don't know; but eddy currents do happen in metal (ferrous or not) near moving magnetic fields (or moving metal near stationary fields, or both). If the currents repetitively change the position or shape of the metal, it'll make a vibration, and if that vibration or a harmonic of it is in the audible range, it could be heard as a noise.

In his case it didn't happen with plastic caps, but did with metal ones. It could be because eddy currents owuldnt' happen in plastic, or because it's simply a resonant vibration and a metal cap doesn't have the vibration-damping ability of plastic, or both.

I don't know for sure what experiments would be needed to determine which causes it, but I expect that if you drove the motor wheel by a belt from an external motor, and did the same things that way that you would with the motor wheel direcctly powered by an ESC, once with teh metal cap and once with the plastic, and found the problem didnt' happen at all then it'd be much more likely it was an eddy current issue, but if it did happen again it'd be some sort of resonant vibration.

So a different capacitor

Not capacitor, but motor endcap.

As to what would stop the noise, it depends on what causes it.

Huh..how come this is so unknown. To me anyway.

I have no idea; I don't know how much you know about motor design or magnetics in general, or noise, harmonics, vibration, etc. sources.

It's certainly not an unknown problem in general. I'd guess there's quite a few design decisions that result from it in various products.

It's even speculated that this is a potential cause of some of the apparently-resonant or RPM-determined sounds various motors (especially hubmotors) make, though AFAIK it's never been determined for sure one way or the other for any of them.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby torqueboards » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:35 am

melodious wrote:No more thinking about gearing. No more thinking about belts & chains. No more thinking about trucks and brackets. No more motor bite. It doesn't get simpler than this :lol: .

I'd love to join in on this venture, but my plate is full :cry: . For those that are in on this, I hope it's everything it's meant to be!


Can't ride in rain though :( I ride my belt drive in rain.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby Hummina Shadeeba » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:42 am

So the breaking noise that happens when you're...breaking, is the motor vibrating. I was imagining some frequency that made the capacitors hum...but it's the motor "cap". Why it vibrates and to such an extreme state to make such a noise..what frequency would do that? And why wouldn't the same frequency occur when going forward? The only bell like parts I see on that motor, or any motor, are the out runner can, which is pretty isolated and could resonate, but this motor is housed in a great sound dampener and it seems surprising to hear such a noise.

It seems all esc on skateboards have this noise braking
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby Hummina Shadeeba » Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:24 am

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:So the breaking noise that happens when you're...breaking, is the motor vibrating. I was imagining some frequency that made the capacitors hum...but it's the motor "cap". Why it vibrates and to such an extreme state to make such a noise..what frequency would do that? And why wouldn't the same frequency occur when going forward? The only bell like parts I see on that motor, or any motor, are the out runner can, which is pretty isolated and could resonate, but this motor is housed in a great sound dampener and it seems surprising to hear such a noise.

It seems all esc on skateboards have this noise braking


Is " eddy current braking" used? Is that what's going on with these esc and motors? It's got its own wiki entery and is used on bullet trains.
Speaking of the amazing being made contemporary and get somewhat of topic, but keeping it to the point of "why isn't this here already"...HK sells 70volt and 200 amp esc and motors to match(if you believe their own turnigy stats hype). That's 14000 watts. Roughly 16 horsepower. You can run a model airplane with it they say but a 50cc scooter is typically only 3 to 5 horsepower. That kind of horsepower could supplant almost every personal vehicle on the road if people weren't into 300 horsepower muscle cars. the skateboard at 25 mph needing only 1000watts tells a lot
For 600 hundred bucks you can get the esc and motor and a couple hundred more for batteries, all you need is a simple light frame..maybe simply of wood and a simple wood motor mount even..or a junked scooter..no gears..no brakes even..just a throttle with eddy current braking... bit more money, but the parts are there except for the same motor mount obstacle.
When will the cheap electric motorcycle come out. Commercial skateboards are pretty cheap but hp to $ im thinking there's a better vehicle out there.

Please excuse that side thought. I have oooone question
How do you think this single 50mm with no gearing will compare to a geared 50 or 60mm motor setup? If you have the same esc will the lack of gearing be much less efficient on a hill or just simply slower? Get hot and waste battery?
Last edited by Hummina Shadeeba on Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby Freshair » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:25 pm

Not much of a tester, so good luck with this awesome project, really want to see it succeed!

If you could make a version with bigger motors and for 97+ urethane, consider me a future consumer! :-D
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby torqueboards » Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:33 pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:How do you think this single 50mm with no gearing will compare to a geared 50 or 60mm motor setup? If you have the same esc will the lack of gearing be much less efficient on a hill or just simply slower? Get hot and waste battery?


Of course, a 50mm geared setup will be miles away from better as far as climbing hills will be. The torque is also adjustable by adjusting your gearing ratio. Perhaps maybe if you had 4 motors it would equal (2) 50mm geared setup. This is also only an assumption I don't know for sure.

But from hub motors they do have their advantages but a geared setup is a lot more efficient producing torque output. If you want power geared setup will most likely always be better. If you want ease of use most likely hub motors would win.

I think most of these still apply. https://www.electricbike.com/hubmotors/

I don't think this move to hub motor will get rid of geared setups any time soon. Definitely a nice addition. I do want to try it.
Last edited by torqueboards on Wed Dec 31, 2014 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total. View post history.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby Hummina Shadeeba » Thu Jan 01, 2015 1:22 pm

torqueboards wrote:
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:How do you think this single 50mm with no gearing will compare to a geared 50 or 60mm motor setup? If you have the same esc will the lack of gearing be much less efficient on a hill or just simply slower? Get hot and waste battery?


Of course, a 50mm geared setup will be miles away from better as far as climbing hills will be. The torque is also adjustable by adjusting your gearing ratio. Perhaps maybe if you had 4 motors it would equal (2) 50mm geared setup. This is also only an assumption I don't know for sure.

But from hub motors they do have their advantages but a geared setup is a lot more efficient producing torque output. If you want power geared setup will most likely always be better. If you want ease of use most likely hub motors would win.

I think most of these still apply. https://www.electricbike.com/hubmotors/

I don't think this move to hub motor will get rid of geared setups any time soon. Definitely a nice addition. I do want to try it.

So in a situation where you're demanding more torque than one of these solo could handle I wonder how long the battery would last.
Even though it specifies an 8s limit if something this small could take 12s, which sounds possible to do, than maybe it'd be better. Or maybe it'd be worse with the volts x kv being so high. I wonder. There's justins ebike simulator, but it and every other simulator is beyond me or doesn't seem appropriate for a board.
Could you make this motor 12s or is there a reason you don't?
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby beto_pty » Thu Jan 01, 2015 9:29 pm

There..
Just paid for my 2 sets on ebay..
So just for those still on the fence...
Any information regarding the Kv?
That is an important part of the information a buyer might be very interested. ..
Also it greatly influences the decision of what esc to use...as well as the 6s, or 4s in serie batteries
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby jacobbloy » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:01 am

We are going to go 100kv guys you would need 50kv to use 10s ppl are using 6s and 7s setups every where!

Instead of using the 5065 motor stator at 41x30mm I can use the 6364 motor stator giving it a 53x30 stator! Giving more power but I can not do for this run I need to do some testing!

I have avid eo I can upload tonight
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby jacobbloy » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:02 am

I need about 10-14 motor to be ordered if any one is interest pm me:)
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby torqueboards » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:11 am

Those 63mm will be nice also. I'll most likely buy a set of those as well.

What is our ETA for the 50mm motor options?
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby jacobbloy » Fri Jan 02, 2015 1:58 am

torqueboards wrote:Those 63mm will be nice also. I'll most likely buy a set of those as well.

What is our ETA for the 50mm motor options?


30 days, a lot of the Cnc companys I work with are on holidays!

But I have a question for every one! Anodising or not? If so what color?

And basically every one has asked for Kegel wheels
So do you want to stay with the Orange 80a or purple 83a!

I'll order some 63mm motors and offer them once I test them!
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby torqueboards » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:24 am

I prefer softer. Matching orange to kegels would look nice. Interested to see what others have to say.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby beto_pty » Fri Jan 02, 2015 6:41 am

Purple 83s so we cqn slide them...i mean so they last longer....
Yay for 100kv... will rock on 8s!!!
Good final speed for the 200 lbs guys using single motors on flats...
Should have a nice hill climbing potential for anyone at or around 170lbs...should go up a wall with a 140 pounder. ..


Cant wait for this....
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby Hummina Shadeeba » Fri Jan 02, 2015 2:29 pm

when you expect delivery. I can't find it on eBay.
I'll do two If it doesn't take too long
But before I'd like to know the replace the thane cost and any warranty.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby beto_pty » Fri Jan 02, 2015 5:59 pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:But before I'd like to know the replace the thane cost and any warranty.


This is a test batch.. from a guy in a garage trying to literally reinvent the wheel...what kind of warranty are you expecting?

Ill be happy if my motor hub has 3 wires and the wheels are purple...anyting beyond that will be bliss...
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby Hummina Shadeeba » Fri Jan 02, 2015 9:13 pm

I'm liking the idea of it but dont know how it works and am beyond curious...to the point of throwing my money at an almost unknown product. What locks the stator to the axle for starts. What's the cost on new thane. And where do I buy 2. And maybe Im forgetting and it's in the thread somewhere but how's the proto-prototype doing. I read about an issue with model 6 or something but not much on the one being sold. Haven't seen a stator yet. If it's payable by PayPal I'm willing to take the gamble really but would like to know more. The replacement of the thane being most important maybe.

And then there's the one to one ratio issue...I'd have thought 2 would really be a necessity for decent range and any type of hill
But I'm in for two if I can find a button to push
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby jacobbloy » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:04 pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:I'm liking the idea of it but dont know how it works and am beyond curious...to the point of throwing my money at an almost unknown product. What locks the stator to the axle for starts. What's the cost on new thane. And where do I buy 2. And maybe Im forgetting and it's in the thread somewhere but how's the proto-prototype doing. I read about an issue with model 6 or something but not much on the one being sold. Haven't seen a stator yet. If it's payable by PayPal I'm willing to take the gamble really but would like to know more. The replacement of the thane being most important maybe.

And then there's the one to one ratio issue...I'd have thought 2 would really be a necessity for decent range and any type of hill
But I'm in for two if I can find a button to push



We are looking at 30 days for delivery! We also have ordered more motors for the ability to replace because no production has every single part perfect! 2 motors are always a better but 1 is enough but almost every one has opted for twin!

We are sensitive for all concerns and we are trying to give as much info as possible I have a review video coming!
Explaining the problems!
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby jacobbloy » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:05 pm

beto_pty wrote:
Hummina Shadeeba wrote:But before I'd like to know the replace the thane cost and any warranty.


This is a test batch.. from a guy in a garage trying to literally reinvent the wheel...what kind of warranty are you expecting?

Ill be happy if my motor hub has 3 wires and the wheels are purple...anyting beyond that will be bliss...


Thanks for the kind words and support! Purple Kegel wheels for you!
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby Hummina Shadeeba » Fri Jan 02, 2015 11:52 pm

Please excuse me for what may seem like criticism I'm excited for this as well as most people here I imagine.
I'm just a critic cause it's a science site and I went down this road ofthe1:1 and the people who's oppinion mattered most said two motors are necessary to be relatively efficient at this size and with a 1:1. What that relativity is I'd like to find out. I hope to be able to throw Watts Up in the circuit and have some high readings..coupled with steep hills, cool motors, and a mile to each amp hour on the flats at least.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby killisch » Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:48 am

Were the motors you are comparing against 100kv and designed for 1/1. Or did they have double or triple the kV and require gearing down to be effective?
Just so were comparing apple to apples of course. I'm a lightweight so I doubt they'll struggle to drag my frame uphill.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby beto_pty » Sat Jan 03, 2015 6:12 am

Hummina's setupnwas using 245 kv tacons... th3se are 100kv...
There is the equivalent of 2.45: 1 gearing. ....
I run my tacons at the equivalent 42:17 (2.5:1 ish) on 83mm wheels and get nice torque on flats, and can go up overpasses and such without much drama at my 200 lbs....
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby Hummina Shadeeba » Sat Jan 03, 2015 12:10 pm

There's the kv that can be varied and optimized but besides that there's a ratio between the motors air gap (between the stator and rotor which will have a certain square size as well as strength depending on the magnets and just how close that gap is) and the torque the motor can produce without sinking into inefficiency. The standard out runner with niobium magnets has a sq area and strength which requires a gear to get the torque necessary to do a hill. Otherwise a slow climb, hot motor and small range. Speed x torque equals power but without the speed of the spinning motor it must make up for it with torque..and amps I guess.
I remember the guy who made the Kicker motor that went up on kickstarter with the friction drive talking about kv. His setup isn't quite a 1:1 but he said dropping the kv works to an extent but the required very thin windings necessary to get so low with such a small motor ended up with a low amp ability. I forget what kv he ended up going with but it was higher than if he was simply looking at it from a gearing perspective. With the low kv you get more torque per amp but the amount of amps you can put in decreases. I think his is optimized at about 150 kv. I think
But I want two and I live in San francisco and hope for the best.
Gotta check my email and see if the PayPal bill arrived.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Postby Silenthunter » Sat Jan 03, 2015 9:22 pm

I would like to see a 5 min video with the dual set up in action. Full speed at 6S bombing some hills, breaking, start up....etc.
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