Hub motor project!

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jacobbloy
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:55 am

melodious wrote:Who wants a functional motor/wheel combo if it only lasts 1000km and your forced to buy another. Can you go into more detail about changing & replacing worn wheels? Can a person, go from 70mm or 83mm to 90+mm without buying a new motor? Otherwise, it has the proprietary stigmata attached to it.
This isn't a hole lot of urathan on a 70mm hub motor 75 maybe but 80-93mm is great!
They way that I have designed the motor makes it a 3 min job to change the urathane wheel, you do not need to replace the motor, I have been in contact with LABEDA who make orangatang wheels and when I have the money for the mould cost I will be making wheels that are a perfect fit instead of modifying original wheels!

Bearings can be replaced.

Even the motor winding could be replaced to reduce replacment cost of the hole motor!

My goal is:

Create the best quality hub motor with the best performance and at the lowest price. The motor can already be adapted to I would say any but I havnt tested all so I say most 8mm longboard axel! Giving customers the most freedom with there decks!
The case in my photos mounts under the truck like a spacer and clips onto the safes of the deck onto the other side, if we continue with this as well as a carbon Fiber deck I feel we can give the option for many more riders to quickly add a motor and remove the motor to there original longboard deck reducing the cost for many tha havee to go out and buy a set of Paris or caliber trucks plus mounts when they already ride on bear trucks.

I hope that if my hub motor isn't the future then it is the step into the future towards a hover board of course.

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by beto_pty » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:03 am

melodious wrote:Who wants a functional motor/wheel combo if it only lasts 1000km and your forced to buy another. Can you go into more detail about changing & replacing worn wheels? Can a person, go from 70mm or 83mm to 90+mm without buying a new motor? Otherwise, it has the proprietary stigmata attached to it.
I might be totally off on this but...

I believe we are at the point were an excellent idea/design/concept/experiment is about to start to evolve into a great product. This will take failures, burnups, and bad parts. If we are careful to log all the errors, and failures and learn from them this is going to be the dawn of a new gearless generation of eboards... G2 eboards.. (patent that name quick)
This is however NOT the time to expect perfect motors, an ironclad garantee, a perfect performance and 100,000 mile money back offer...

Some of these motors might suck.. some might fail in the middle of the run at 40 kph and splat you on your face, (that will probably be me..) some will generate feedback and burn your esc or some weird combination of unknown factors, ... and stragely enough those are the important ones..... cause those will teach how to make an awesome eboard hub motor..

Then the time will come when they will be garanteed and backed by the provider...

I`m sure a lot of time has gone into this already so im probably overdramatizing the whole thing but the people who test run these motors must be clear on the fact that this is a test run...and must be prepared to enjoy this.

just my 37 pesos
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by torqueboards » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:04 pm

Yup.. I'm willing to test. :mrgreen:
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:05 pm

Could you show us more pics of all the seperate parts and explain how it's built?

Not knowing how it's made and being a cynic I'm thinking it's having two bearings total which are doing double time for both the wheel and the motor while most motors have three bearings and the wheel another two sounds less robust than the standard pulley way. Maybe the ceramic bearings are the solution.

I wonder how efficient it is with its 1:1 gearing vs the standard 1:2 or 1:3. You can replace the shorted windings at least but not the magnets and possibly blown esc.

Any Cad CNC files in vcarve or something for the diy-ers? Maybe we could be a help trying different designs.

any way to cut the wheels to shape ourselves on cad cnc or plain mill?

Will this only fit a standard 8mm axle (which is really 5/16") or also a true "precision" 8mm?

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:43 pm

Hummina Shadeeba wrote:Could you show us more pics of all the seperate parts and explain how it's built?

Not knowing how it's made and being a cynic I'm thinking it's having two bearings total which are doing double time for both the wheel and the motor while most motors have three bearings and the wheel another two sounds less robust than the standard pulley way. Maybe the ceramic bearings are the solution.

I wonder how efficient it is with its 1:1 gearing vs the standard 1:2 or 1:3. You can replace the shorted windings at least but not the magnets and possibly blown esc.

Any Cad CNC files in vcarve or something for the diy-ers? Maybe we could be a help trying different designs.

any way to cut the wheels to shape ourselves on cad cnc or plain mill?

Will this only fit a standard 8mm axle (which is really 5/16") or also a true "precision" 8mm?
I will be posting more photos soon! I havnt been home much because of the holidays!

Yes you are correct there are only 2 bearings 12x24x6mm bearings 6901 ceramic calls made for bike hubs, the same size as the 80100 outrunner motor uses, if you have seen the bearings that the standard 5065 outrunner uses they are very small but there not made for a greased setup such as this there made for props the amount of strain the pulley puts on them can make the bearings become sloppy quickly!
This design might not be good for every body and many will stay with there pully system but as I have said this is a step in the direction that most agree we need to head!

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by BShady » Sun Dec 28, 2014 6:59 pm

Can you make a video? I really wana see the wheels in action.

Btw I couldn't find the post (someone already posted it Ina different thread) but does anybody know if they make hub motors for larger wheels like mountainboards?

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by Hummina Shadeeba » Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:37 pm

It's a great direction in its simplicity and I'm smitten with the idea myself. I made a similar design that had a 1:1 gear ratio months ago and when asking a lot of question electrical engineers on rcgroups.com insisted that with such a small motor (I used a 60mm Tacon160) and lack of gearing two of them would be needed to be efficient.

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Sun Dec 28, 2014 8:56 pm

Ok so I have iv gathered a few images from the proccess from the first design to the current!

Design 1, the problems we had where the wires would fall inside of the hole where the shaft goes and when threaded the wire insulation would wear, we didn't leave enough breathing room for the stator inbetween the caps, also there was no tightening method so it was hard to get the motor on and off.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by beto_pty » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:03 pm

Longboard wheels go 75-100 kms per hour, do toeside pendys, slide sideways on 2 bearings per wheel..
The stress/power goes from the road to the urethane to the hub to the bearings to the axle... I pulled 3500 watts doing 0-60.. , conservation of energy laws lead me to believe that going from 75-0 should take roughly around 5000 or so watts...
Not only the power but the torsional forces are significant.. yet bearings last and last... these motors are 8s... so I dont forsee anything over 2200-2500 watts happening for any lenght of time...

However if we examine the hub-urethaane connection where the lateral forces may be such that the wheel de-hubs... now that might be more of a problem... or where the magnets slip off that might also be a deal...

guess we will find out soon enough.. looking forward to sliding sideways on these... LOL not really.. :D
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jacobbloy
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:24 pm

Design 4 was the first design that we had a chance to get on the board and ride I have a video that I'm looking for I want to show you all!

We fixed:

Stator cap clearance, we changed from 1 single slit in the shaft for the phase wires to 4 smaller ones with a gap spacer inbetween the longboard shaft and the wires, we also added and Allan key to the end for fastening quickly and tight!
We also changed the design so the caps screwed into the car from the side of the can, this made production a lot cheaper but wasn't the best design at all.

Problems:

Urathan was tight but had the ability to slowly twist off! Not safe! The screws on the caps would fall out a lot because of the source created, the screws couldn't be undone very quickly once the urathan was applied.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by torqueboards » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:29 pm

Looks great. The prices include the wheels as well + already assembled within the wheels or just the motor? Higher or bigger quality photos would be nice. :mrgreen:
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:33 pm

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Design 6 is my fav but it didn't work very well.

It was a smaller motor it was only 45x48mm still gave 6s and a lot of power and saved 100g and and fit in a lot more wheels with out the motor being wider then the wheel, also a lot more urathane thickness but there simply wasn't enough room to move inside of the motor:( we tried to get this right over design 7 and 8 but no go!

Things we fixed:

The caps where bigger to stop the urathane ever falling off the motor, the can of the motor had locking grooves to stop slipping! This works great!

Problems:

To small motor kv had to be around 230.

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:42 pm

Design 9

The motors in operated design 6's grooves but we had them bigger so there is no was for urathan slipping! Yay! And the caps where even bigger giving make sure the urathane had no was of slipping off.

Problems:

The abec11 flywheel design wheel is only 52mm wide and because of the cone sape on the side the caps don't touch the urathane this was never a problem when riding and the caps would stop it from coming off but it also made it look crap!
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torqueboards
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by torqueboards » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:44 pm

Next is making a custom wheel that fits your motors :)
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Sun Dec 28, 2014 9:55 pm

Design 10 yay!

Motor stayed the same but the wheel changed to the Kegel!
The wheel is 80mm not to big not to small but a lot softer when riding over rocks!
The real benifit is the 56mm width of the wheel! Know the caps actually compress the wheel just a little and with the groves the urathane hugs the motor it amazing! It feels like there is no motor!

Problems:

Alloy caps when the motor is breaking it is creating its own EMF and when the alloy cap spins it makes a chime noise! I also feel it could effet the breaking power but it's yet to be tested! Looking to fix with carbon fibre caps and full ceramic bearings. The wires going though the shaft have a very tight squeeze, heat shrink splits can fix with a bigger bearing leaving more room 14x28x6 instead and correct wire insulation.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:02 pm

torqueboards wrote:Looks great. The prices include the wheels as well + already assembled within the wheels or just the motor? Higher or bigger quality photos would be nice. :mrgreen:
It only allows me to upload 500kb files I'll be setting up a website soon!

Also iv has a few ppl ask why I don't use a bigger motor. Well the motor would be about 5mm wider then a noarmal urathan wheel, it would make your wheel base very wide effecting the ride, also if using a 83mm wheel you will only have 10mm of urathan rounding the motor! Won't be very smooth ride at all, with the motor size I use at the moment it is only 5mm thicker then the original longboard wheel core, making the feel of the wheel on the road as close to the original as possible.

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by torqueboards » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:05 pm

jacobbloy wrote:
torqueboards wrote:Looks great. The prices include the wheels as well + already assembled within the wheels or just the motor? Higher or bigger quality photos would be nice. :mrgreen:
It only allows me to upload 500kb files I'll be setting up a website soon!

Also iv has a few ppl ask why I don't use a bigger motor. Well the motor would be about 5mm wider then a noarmal urathan wheel, it would make your wheel base very wide effecting the ride, also if using a 83mm wheel you will only have 10mm of urathan rounding the motor! Won't be very smooth ride at all, with the motor size I use at the moment it is only 5mm thicker then the original longboard wheel core, making the feel of the wheel on the road as close to the original as possible.

Try uploading to postimage.org.

Can't wait your motors look great! Way to innovate.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:05 pm

torqueboards wrote:Next is making a custom wheel that fits your motors :)
Yep! $2000 for China with a 100 set MOQ or $7000 for America about 2 moths

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by torqueboards » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:15 pm

Let's see some videos :)
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:49 pm

torqueboards wrote:Let's see some videos :)
Need to make some! But have some of the old design,

http://youtu.be/o5Ch7VDbYuA

http://youtu.be/qhcT9sTeGPo

http://youtu.be/c81xSUBKBDI

Thanks guys for the support if u have any question please continue to ask!
Im happy to get as much feed back as possible.

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by Barndom » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:29 pm

jacobbloy wrote:... Problems:

Alloy caps when the motor is breaking it is creating its own EMF and when the alloy cap spins it makes a chime noise! I also feel it could effet the breaking power but it's yet to be tested! Looking to fix with carbon fibre caps and full ceramic bearings. ..
I don't get this part? How can alloy, being non magnetic, be effected by EMF? Maybe it's the screws? In that case changing to non magnetic stainless steel screws should help.
jacobbloy wrote:... The wires going though the shaft have a very tight squeeze, heat shrink splits can fix with a higher hearing leaving more room 14x28x6 instead and correct wire insulation.
A very short distance of thin wire where it passes the axle shouldn't be a problem, electrical resistance wise, I bealive.

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by BShady » Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:57 pm

jacobbloy wrote:
torqueboards wrote:Let's see some videos :)
Need to make some! But have some of the old design,

http://youtu.be/o5Ch7VDbYuA

http://youtu.be/qhcT9sTeGPo

http://youtu.be/c81xSUBKBDI

Thanks guys for the support if u have any question please continue to ask!
Im happy to get as much feed back as possible.
Can you embed them. My YouTube is crap quality on my phone embed works way better

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by OBone » Mon Dec 29, 2014 7:15 am

Something that might be said and I missed it. Effect of the torque on the reuck axle. Is 8mm of aluminium alloy steong enough? With the geared setup the outside cas part of the teuck absorbs the torque.
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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by jacobbloy » Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:06 am

OBone wrote:Something that might be said and I missed it. Effect of the torque on the reuck axle. Is 8mm of aluminium alloy steong enough? With the geared setup the outside cas part of the teuck absorbs the torque.
Most longboard trucks have some sort of rod through the middle of the truck hanger that they use for the truck axels as alloy would just bend while doing tricks as well as the thread could de thread very easy!

At the moment the shaft in my motor is 7075 alloy and I thing stainless is better as the lock thread on the inside of the shaft would have less wear!

Lots of Cnced trucks are moving to a carbon Steel alloy chrome mix I think it called moly carbon steel?
This makes for a lighter strong axel that is less brittle so less likely to snap.

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Re: Hub motor project!

Post by spinningmagnets » Mon Dec 29, 2014 9:57 am

If you can place a steel paperclip onto the side of the motor while the axle is vertical, and the clip stays on rather than falling off...there may be some magnetic flux rotating abouton the outside of the shell. Thickening the steel shell of the outrunner would reduce this. I am not experienced enough to state any of this with authority, but the chiming you heard might be vibrations from eddy-current heating.

Aluminum is not magnetic, but if a magnetic field is moving next to it, it will heat the aluminum and also cause drag on the motor (If I recall correctly). The steel backing of hub motor magnet backing rings "short circuits" the magnetic flux. Too thick results in unnecessary weight, too thin and a variety of other issues arise. These RC motors were designed for very light weight and max torque per applied watt, but the model aircraft housings (that they were intended for) are typically plastic or some other composite, so eddy current heating of surrounding metals is not a frequently seen issue.

If I have mis-stated anything, I apologize in advance, but my hazy recollections might be worth looking into in order to eliminate those issues as possibilities. Perhaps spin up a motor on the bench at max RPMs while using an optical tachometer, then hold various metals nearby to see if the motor slows? (it goes without saying for ES members, but for newer and inexperienced readers, hold the metal in such a way that it might be pulled AWAY from the pliers that hold it...and yes, I have many scars on my hands)

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